#tootstorm — Public Fediverse posts

That quote above reflects a realisation I've come to myself that a major function of government is in addressing risks which cannot be meaningfully and/or effectively addressed by private enterprise, or by smaller governmental units. See today's related news that the Orange Turd has refused Federal disaster relief status to a state hit by recent storms: Fucking Arkansas of all places. That is one HELLA RED state:

https://lite.cnn.com/2025/04/23/weather/trump-denied-disaster-aid-arkansas-tornadoes/index.html

That risk bit ties in to my (yes, still-in-process) #tootstorm on orthodox economic failings. I'd add a few other roles:

• Coordination problems. A/K/A political decisionmaking. How do disparate interests come to agreement or bypass agreement entirely in allowing Shit To Get Done?

• Public goods. The provision of goods for which market-based prices intrinsically fall below cost of provisioning. Roads, lighthouses, education, healthcare / sanitation / public health, welfare services, weather prediction, census, postal service, in some cases telecoms both wired and broadcast.

• Risk, as noted above. Incidentally, I'd put national defence and general social safety net in this camp, along with national disaster relief.

• Probably some others though I'm having trouble articulating / thinking of these. Regulation, courts, standardisation (look up Herbert Hoover's role here as Secretary of Commerce and the Bureau of Weights and Measures), long-term research funding.

But risk is a huge part of it.

#EzraKlein #risk #government #GovernmentAsRiskManagement #podcasts

@Dianora There are a few other economic concepts which are IMO key to developing any remedies and/or alternatives. I'll try to touch on the major ones here.

Wage/Rent pricing, mentioned above, is a key stumbling point. Smith:

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AThe_wealth_of_nations%2C_volume_1.djvu/135

The Law of Rent and Iron Law of Wages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages) dictate that these dynamics are always in conflict and play, and crush the working class, most especially those who live by wage labour (or worse: piecework pay, see Smith's discussion of this for an eye-opener), and rent rather than own their domeciles. Both concepts date to the 18th / early 19th centuries, but are largely ignored in contemporary orthodoxy.

The "obvious" solutions, of, say, providing free/subsidised essentials to the working class or of critical goods and services (food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare) largely further exacerbate the existing perverse market dynamics. I am not saying DON'T help those in dire need. What I am saying is that if this is the sole and widespread remedy, that the underlying problems get worse: wages fall (because "welfare" benefits subsidise its costs rather than employers paying a living wage), education, housing, healthcare and other services get more expensive (because subsidies provide additional revenues).

Winston Churchill (another unlikely champion) noted this in 1906:

Some years ago in London there was a toll bar on a bridge across the Thames, and all the working people who lived on the south side of the river had to pay a daily toll of one penny for going and returning from their work. The spectacle of these poor people thus mulcted of so large a proportion of their earnings offended the public conscience, and agitation was set on foot, municipal authorities were roused, and at the cost of the taxpayers, the bridge was freed and the toll removed. All those people who used the bridge were saved sixpence a week, but within a very short time rents on the south side of the river were found to have risen about sixpence a week, or the amount of the toll which had been remitted!

https://www.landvaluetax.org/history/winston-churchill-said-it-all-better-then-we-can

Instead, a dual strategy of taxing rents (generally: providers of the goods/services above or those acting similarly economically), and providing for increased labour bargaining power though an improved best alternative to negotiated agreement (BATNA) and coordinated negotiation power (a/k/a Labour Unionisation) is necessary. Both of course run into the Wealth is Power and Logic of Collective Action (Mancur Olson, 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action) problems.

Direct subsidies / contributions as emergency measures directed at dire immediate circumstances are ABSOLUTELY of value. **But they should result in direction to directly addressing the rents/wages dichotomy.

A business which cannot pay a living wage and survive economically is a charity conducted to the benefit of its owner at the cost of its workers, or is provisioning public goods which should see a subsidy in their provision through tax revenues and transfer payments. Below-subsistence wages and labour supports only exacerbate the underlying problem.

Private ownership of real estate is a surprisingly recent development, displacing earlier feudal or monarchical rents (often very long-term leases) largely in the late 19th century. Among the few explorations of this history I've found is Simon Winchester's Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(book)). And of course there's Henry George's Progress and Poverty (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty_(George,_D._Appleton_%26_Company,_fifth_edition)), championing the Land Value Tax (along with: Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Milton Friedman (!!!), to name just a few. Social housing has its failures, but also successes, including the Fuggerei (Augsburg, Germany, created by the Fugger family in 1516 and continuing to serve to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei), Vienna, and Japan (through both market and government actions, in part through some idiosyncratic practices).

Housing cannot be both affordable and an investment asset. And of the two, the first function is primal.

Incidentally, I suspect that a large part of the US growth in homelessness may be directly attributable to going off the gold standard, itself a response to the country's peak-oil moment and reliance on foreign energy imports, driving banks and financial institutions to find an alternate asset class: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21304603.

Next are some more obscure economic principles, somewhat addressed in the mainstream, but highly underappreciated ...

2/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #wages #rents #LawOfRent #IronLawOfWages #MancurOlson #UBI #unions #LogicOfCollectiveAction #RealEstate #homelessness #OilCrisis #PeakOil #Fuggerei #ProgressAndPoverty #HenryGeorge #DavidRicardo #SimonWinchester #AffordableHousing #AssetHousing #BusinessAsCharity #tootstorm

@Dianora There are a few other economic concepts which are IMO key to developing any remedies and/or alternatives. I'll try to touch on the major ones here.

Wage/Rent pricing, mentioned above, is a key stumbling point. Smith:

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AThe_wealth_of_nations%2C_volume_1.djvu/135

The Law of Rent and Iron Law of Wages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages) dictate that these dynamics are always in conflict and play, and crush the working class, most especially those who live by wage labour (or worse: piecework pay, see Smith's discussion of this for an eye-opener), and rent rather than own their domeciles. Both concepts date to the 18th / early 19th centuries, but are largely ignored in contemporary orthodoxy.

The "obvious" solutions, of, say, providing free/subsidised essentials to the working class or of critical goods and services (food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare) largely further exacerbate the existing perverse market dynamics. I am not saying DON'T help those in dire need. What I am saying is that if this is the sole and widespread remedy, that the underlying problems get worse: wages fall (because "welfare" benefits subsidise its costs rather than employers paying a living wage), education, housing, healthcare and other services get more expensive (because subsidies provide additional revenues).

Winston Churchill (another unlikely champion) noted this in 1906:

Some years ago in London there was a toll bar on a bridge across the Thames, and all the working people who lived on the south side of the river had to pay a daily toll of one penny for going and returning from their work. The spectacle of these poor people thus mulcted of so large a proportion of their earnings offended the public conscience, and agitation was set on foot, municipal authorities were roused, and at the cost of the taxpayers, the bridge was freed and the toll removed. All those people who used the bridge were saved sixpence a week, but within a very short time rents on the south side of the river were found to have risen about sixpence a week, or the amount of the toll which had been remitted!

https://www.landvaluetax.org/history/winston-churchill-said-it-all-better-then-we-can

Instead, a dual strategy of taxing rents (generally: providers of the goods/services above or those acting similarly economically), and providing for increased labour bargaining power though an improved best alternative to negotiated agreement (BATNA) and coordinated negotiation power (a/k/a Labour Unionisation) is necessary. Both of course run into the Wealth is Power and Logic of Collective Action (Mancur Olson, 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action) problems.

Direct subsidies / contributions as emergency measures directed at dire immediate circumstances are ABSOLUTELY of value. **But they should result in direction to directly addressing the rents/wages dichotomy.

A business which cannot pay a living wage and survive economically is a charity conducted to the benefit of its owner at the cost of its workers, or is provisioning public goods which should see a subsidy in their provision through tax revenues and transfer payments. Below-subsistence wages and labour supports only exacerbate the underlying problem.

Private ownership of real estate is a surprisingly recent development, displacing earlier feudal or monarchical rents (often very long-term leases) largely in the late 19th century. Among the few explorations of this history I've found is Simon Winchester's Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(book)). And of course there's Henry George's Progress and Poverty (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty_(George,_D._Appleton_%26_Company,_fifth_edition)), championing the Land Value Tax (along with: Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Milton Friedman (!!!), to name just a few. Social housing has its failures, but also successes, including the Fuggerei (Augsburg, Germany, created by the Fugger family in 1516 and continuing to serve to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei), Vienna, and Japan (through both market and government actions, in part through some idiosyncratic practices).

Housing cannot be both affordable and an investment asset. And of the two, the first function is primal.

Incidentally, I suspect that a large part of the US growth in homelessness may be directly attributable to going off the gold standard, itself a response to the country's peak-oil moment and reliance on foreign energy imports, driving banks and financial institutions to find an alternate asset class: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21304603.

Next are some more obscure economic principles, somewhat addressed in the mainstream, but highly underappreciated ...

2/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #wages #rents #LawOfRent #IronLawOfWages #MancurOlson #UBI #unions #LogicOfCollectiveAction #RealEstate #homelessness #OilCrisis #PeakOil #Fuggerei #ProgressAndPoverty #HenryGeorge #DavidRicardo #SimonWinchester #AffordableHousing #AssetHousing #BusinessAsCharity #tootstorm

@Dianora There are a few other economic concepts which are IMO key to developing any remedies and/or alternatives. I'll try to touch on the major ones here.

Wage/Rent pricing, mentioned above, is a key stumbling point. Smith:

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AThe_wealth_of_nations%2C_volume_1.djvu/135

The Law of Rent and Iron Law of Wages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages) dictate that these dynamics are always in conflict and play, and crush the working class, most especially those who live by wage labour (or worse: piecework pay, see Smith's discussion of this for an eye-opener), and rent rather than own their domeciles. Both concepts date to the 18th / early 19th centuries, but are largely ignored in contemporary orthodoxy.

The "obvious" solutions, of, say, providing free/subsidised essentials to the working class or of critical goods and services (food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare) largely further exacerbate the existing perverse market dynamics. I am not saying DON'T help those in dire need. What I am saying is that if this is the sole and widespread remedy, that the underlying problems get worse: wages fall (because "welfare" benefits subsidise its costs rather than employers paying a living wage), education, housing, healthcare and other services get more expensive (because subsidies provide additional revenues).

Winston Churchill (another unlikely champion) noted this in 1906:

Some years ago in London there was a toll bar on a bridge across the Thames, and all the working people who lived on the south side of the river had to pay a daily toll of one penny for going and returning from their work. The spectacle of these poor people thus mulcted of so large a proportion of their earnings offended the public conscience, and agitation was set on foot, municipal authorities were roused, and at the cost of the taxpayers, the bridge was freed and the toll removed. All those people who used the bridge were saved sixpence a week, but within a very short time rents on the south side of the river were found to have risen about sixpence a week, or the amount of the toll which had been remitted!

https://www.landvaluetax.org/history/winston-churchill-said-it-all-better-then-we-can

Instead, a dual strategy of taxing rents (generally: providers of the goods/services above or those acting similarly economically), and providing for increased labour bargaining power though an improved best alternative to negotiated agreement (BATNA) and coordinated negotiation power (a/k/a Labour Unionisation) is necessary. Both of course run into the Wealth is Power and Logic of Collective Action (Mancur Olson, 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action) problems.

Direct subsidies / contributions as emergency measures directed at dire immediate circumstances are ABSOLUTELY of value. **But they should result in direction to directly addressing the rents/wages dichotomy.

A business which cannot pay a living wage and survive economically is a charity conducted to the benefit of its owner at the cost of its workers, or is provisioning public goods which should see a subsidy in their provision through tax revenues and transfer payments. Below-subsistence wages and labour supports only exacerbate the underlying problem.

Private ownership of real estate is a surprisingly recent development, displacing earlier feudal or monarchical rents (often very long-term leases) largely in the late 19th century. Among the few explorations of this history I've found is Simon Winchester's Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(book)). And of course there's Henry George's Progress and Poverty (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty_(George,_D._Appleton_%26_Company,_fifth_edition)), championing the Land Value Tax (along with: Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Milton Friedman (!!!), to name just a few. Social housing has its failures, but also successes, including the Fuggerei (Augsburg, Germany, created by the Fugger family in 1516 and continuing to serve to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei), Vienna, and Japan (through both market and government actions, in part through some idiosyncratic practices).

Housing cannot be both affordable and an investment asset. And of the two, the first function is primal.

Incidentally, I suspect that a large part of the US growth in homelessness may be directly attributable to going off the gold standard, itself a response to the country's peak-oil moment and reliance on foreign energy imports, driving banks and financial institutions to find an alternate asset class: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21304603.

Next are some more obscure economic principles, somewhat addressed in the mainstream, but highly underappreciated ...

2/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #wages #rents #LawOfRent #IronLawOfWages #MancurOlson #UBI #unions #LogicOfCollectiveAction #RealEstate #homelessness #OilCrisis #PeakOil #Fuggerei #ProgressAndPoverty #HenryGeorge #DavidRicardo #SimonWinchester #AffordableHousing #AssetHousing #BusinessAsCharity #tootstorm

@Dianora There are a few other economic concepts which are IMO key to developing any remedies and/or alternatives. I'll try to touch on the major ones here.

Wage/Rent pricing, mentioned above, is a key stumbling point. Smith:

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AThe_wealth_of_nations%2C_volume_1.djvu/135

The Law of Rent and Iron Law of Wages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages) dictate that these dynamics are always in conflict and play, and crush the working class, most especially those who live by wage labour (or worse: piecework pay, see Smith's discussion of this for an eye-opener), and rent rather than own their domeciles. Both concepts date to the 18th / early 19th centuries, but are largely ignored in contemporary orthodoxy.

The "obvious" solutions, of, say, providing free/subsidised essentials to the working class or of critical goods and services (food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare) largely further exacerbate the existing perverse market dynamics. I am not saying DON'T help those in dire need. What I am saying is that if this is the sole and widespread remedy, that the underlying problems get worse: wages fall (because "welfare" benefits subsidise its costs rather than employers paying a living wage), education, housing, healthcare and other services get more expensive (because subsidies provide additional revenues).

Winston Churchill (another unlikely champion) noted this in 1906:

Some years ago in London there was a toll bar on a bridge across the Thames, and all the working people who lived on the south side of the river had to pay a daily toll of one penny for going and returning from their work. The spectacle of these poor people thus mulcted of so large a proportion of their earnings offended the public conscience, and agitation was set on foot, municipal authorities were roused, and at the cost of the taxpayers, the bridge was freed and the toll removed. All those people who used the bridge were saved sixpence a week, but within a very short time rents on the south side of the river were found to have risen about sixpence a week, or the amount of the toll which had been remitted!

https://www.landvaluetax.org/history/winston-churchill-said-it-all-better-then-we-can

Instead, a dual strategy of taxing rents (generally: providers of the goods/services above or those acting similarly economically), and providing for increased labour bargaining power though an improved best alternative to negotiated agreement (BATNA) and coordinated negotiation power (a/k/a Labour Unionisation) is necessary. Both of course run into the Wealth is Power and Logic of Collective Action (Mancur Olson, 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action) problems.

Direct subsidies / contributions as emergency measures directed at dire immediate circumstances are ABSOLUTELY of value. **But they should result in direction to directly addressing the rents/wages dichotomy.

A business which cannot pay a living wage and survive economically is a charity conducted to the benefit of its owner at the cost of its workers, or is provisioning public goods which should see a subsidy in their provision through tax revenues and transfer payments. Below-subsistence wages and labour supports only exacerbate the underlying problem.

Private ownership of real estate is a surprisingly recent development, displacing earlier feudal or monarchical rents (often very long-term leases) largely in the late 19th century. Among the few explorations of this history I've found is Simon Winchester's Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(book)). And of course there's Henry George's Progress and Poverty (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty_(George,_D._Appleton_%26_Company,_fifth_edition)), championing the Land Value Tax (along with: Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Milton Friedman (!!!), to name just a few. Social housing has its failures, but also successes, including the Fuggerei (Augsburg, Germany, created by the Fugger family in 1516 and continuing to serve to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei), Vienna, and Japan (through both market and government actions, in part through some idiosyncratic practices).

Housing cannot be both affordable and an investment asset. And of the two, the first function is primal.

Incidentally, I suspect that a large part of the US growth in homelessness may be directly attributable to going off the gold standard, itself a response to the country's peak-oil moment and reliance on foreign energy imports, driving banks and financial institutions to find an alternate asset class: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21304603.

Next are some more obscure economic principles, somewhat addressed in the mainstream, but highly underappreciated ...

2/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #wages #rents #LawOfRent #IronLawOfWages #MancurOlson #UBI #unions #LogicOfCollectiveAction #RealEstate #homelessness #OilCrisis #PeakOil #Fuggerei #ProgressAndPoverty #HenryGeorge #DavidRicardo #SimonWinchester #AffordableHousing #AssetHousing #BusinessAsCharity #tootstorm

@Dianora There are a few other economic concepts which are IMO key to developing any remedies and/or alternatives. I'll try to touch on the major ones here.

Wage/Rent pricing, mentioned above, is a key stumbling point. Smith:

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AThe_wealth_of_nations%2C_volume_1.djvu/135

The Law of Rent and Iron Law of Wages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages) dictate that these dynamics are always in conflict and play, and crush the working class, most especially those who live by wage labour (or worse: piecework pay, see Smith's discussion of this for an eye-opener), and rent rather than own their domeciles. Both concepts date to the 18th / early 19th centuries, but are largely ignored in contemporary orthodoxy.

The "obvious" solutions, of, say, providing free/subsidised essentials to the working class or of critical goods and services (food, clothing, housing, education, healthcare) largely further exacerbate the existing perverse market dynamics. I am not saying DON'T help those in dire need. What I am saying is that if this is the sole and widespread remedy, that the underlying problems get worse: wages fall (because "welfare" benefits subsidise its costs rather than employers paying a living wage), education, housing, healthcare and other services get more expensive (because subsidies provide additional revenues).

Winston Churchill (another unlikely champion) noted this in 1906:

Some years ago in London there was a toll bar on a bridge across the Thames, and all the working people who lived on the south side of the river had to pay a daily toll of one penny for going and returning from their work. The spectacle of these poor people thus mulcted of so large a proportion of their earnings offended the public conscience, and agitation was set on foot, municipal authorities were roused, and at the cost of the taxpayers, the bridge was freed and the toll removed. All those people who used the bridge were saved sixpence a week, but within a very short time rents on the south side of the river were found to have risen about sixpence a week, or the amount of the toll which had been remitted!

https://www.landvaluetax.org/history/winston-churchill-said-it-all-better-then-we-can

Instead, a dual strategy of taxing rents (generally: providers of the goods/services above or those acting similarly economically), and providing for increased labour bargaining power though an improved best alternative to negotiated agreement (BATNA) and coordinated negotiation power (a/k/a Labour Unionisation) is necessary. Both of course run into the Wealth is Power and Logic of Collective Action (Mancur Olson, 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action) problems.

Direct subsidies / contributions as emergency measures directed at dire immediate circumstances are ABSOLUTELY of value. **But they should result in direction to directly addressing the rents/wages dichotomy.

A business which cannot pay a living wage and survive economically is a charity conducted to the benefit of its owner at the cost of its workers, or is provisioning public goods which should see a subsidy in their provision through tax revenues and transfer payments. Below-subsistence wages and labour supports only exacerbate the underlying problem.

Private ownership of real estate is a surprisingly recent development, displacing earlier feudal or monarchical rents (often very long-term leases) largely in the late 19th century. Among the few explorations of this history I've found is Simon Winchester's Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_(book)). And of course there's Henry George's Progress and Poverty (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty_(George,_D._Appleton_%26_Company,_fifth_edition)), championing the Land Value Tax (along with: Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and Milton Friedman (!!!), to name just a few. Social housing has its failures, but also successes, including the Fuggerei (Augsburg, Germany, created by the Fugger family in 1516 and continuing to serve to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei), Vienna, and Japan (through both market and government actions, in part through some idiosyncratic practices).

Housing cannot be both affordable and an investment asset. And of the two, the first function is primal.

Incidentally, I suspect that a large part of the US growth in homelessness may be directly attributable to going off the gold standard, itself a response to the country's peak-oil moment and reliance on foreign energy imports, driving banks and financial institutions to find an alternate asset class: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21304603.

Next are some more obscure economic principles, somewhat addressed in the mainstream, but highly underappreciated ...

2/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #wages #rents #LawOfRent #IronLawOfWages #MancurOlson #UBI #unions #LogicOfCollectiveAction #RealEstate #homelessness #OilCrisis #PeakOil #Fuggerei #ProgressAndPoverty #HenryGeorge #DavidRicardo #SimonWinchester #AffordableHousing #AssetHousing #BusinessAsCharity #tootstorm

@Dianora So, a few thoughts on What Might be Done to correct economic thinking ....

Long and multi-part.

First part here delves more into the general failings / holes in contemporary mainstream orthodox economics.

On pricing behaviours of goods and services under typical market conditions, it's possible to read Adam Smith's chapters on prices (mostly Book I, Ch. V--XI, and Book V, Ch. II) as discussing the prices (or tax revenues) of commodities, labour, capital stock (industrial investments), rents, interest, and assets (silver & gold to Smith). These ... behave differently, and not strictly in the supply/demand model dominant in conventional orthodox economics. As noted above, even Matt Ridley, bless his heart, agrees that market valuation of assets ... behaves poorly.

Much oligarchic wealth occurs not through trade but through asset inflation. That is, it's less that someone achieves obscene wealth by selling goods/services than that the commercial-legal entity which manifests that trade itself appreciates in nominal value. Billionaires don't sit atop heaps of cash but of assets which can be denominated in cash equivalents. (Often with many levels of leverage and indirection both.) Matt Ridley, not someone with whom I generally find agreement, has noted that markets work relatively well for commerce exchange but poorly for assets (from a book, I'd run across this in an IQ2 debate w/ David Runciman and Johan Norberg: https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/the-new-optimism-with-matt-ridley-johan-norberg-david-runciman-and-laura-kuenssberg/.)

Wages and rents are two other key dynamics in that wages tend to fall to or below subsistence whilst rents tend to rise to claim all surplus beneficial value. The more one is subsidised (e.g., wage supports, rent subsidies) the worse the dynamic becomes, and this is a money-pump from workers to landlords. Tackling this requires both wage and rent-side reforms, e.g., UBI / living wage, and a wealth or land-value tax. Addressing workers' and tenants' rights is another key element, though more of politics/law than economics itself.

(Law and economics are tightly coupled in interesting ways. Hayek's training, f'rex, was in law.)

Business merger & acquisition is a huge hole in the "vote with your wallet" (a/k/a "free-market it harder") retort. That works if businesses are small, limited, and cannot buy out or otherwise crush competition, but fails utterly if in avoiding firm X by patronising firm Y, one finds X buying Y (often strictly because of customer flight, see e.g., Facebook -> Whatsapp or Amazon -> Diapers.com). Buy-and-kill is another failure mode. Both of these require remedies outside the markets, e.g., political, legal, social, or other actions.

Equivocation of wealth and profit, where wealth ("the annual produce and labour of the nation" https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_II/Chapter_3, which as many have noted means that wealth is a flow rather than a stock), and profit in the accounting sense (direct monetary revenues less direct monetary costs) is one of the more gaping holes in conventional economic argument. I've done some root-searching on that and find that much of the source seems to be in the cost accounting of Alexander Hamilton Church (and yes, related to that A.H.), which serves as the basis for modern accounting practice. Leo Tolstoy's What Shall We Do (a title invoked by Lenin's later book) has some interesting discussions on this.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power" is Smith's pithiest observation in all of WoN: The fact that economic and/or financial wealth translates to political and social power has profound impacts, and alone explains a huge part of the failings of US right-libertarian theology following from Hayek, von Mises, Rotthbard, and Nozick.

"Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (Bernard Stern, 1937) discusses one dimension of this in the resistances of established powers (economic/commercial and others) to technological innovations: https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/page/39 https://rentry.co/szi3g. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Value's equivocation as "market price" in contemporary discussion is another failing. I see "value" actually being three distinct elements, any of which may fail to reflect underlying reality: real cost (all necessary inputs, labour, capital, time, natural resources, effluent sinks, unwanted/unintended consequences), exchange value (price), and use value. In practice, C <= P <= UV, that is, the exchange value lies somewhere between cost and use value, though in extreme circumstances that can be violated. In particular, extractive resources tend to have P < C, that is, the price is below the total cost, especially the time-based replenishment cost, of the resource; labour wages tend to fall to subsistence, rents tend to rise to subsume all use value, asset prices ... are strange (I've not sorted my thinking on this), interest rates seem to be a mix of market and central bank effects, and public goods (in the economic definition) are those for which market prices fall well below marginal cost and use-value, and are underprovisioned absent specific subsidy, with lighthouses, education, roads, infrastructure, information, and communications being classic exemplars.

Incidentally, the whole notion of a market exchange economy fundamentally relies on the underpricing of essnetial inputs (food, energy, raw materials, labour) with excess value being extracted at further levels of economic activity (manufacture, commerce, transport, finance, management, etc.) This is the revelation of Quesnay's Tableau Économique and further explorations of tiers of economic activity (Clark & Kennessey particularly). Typical categorisation:

• Primary Activities: Agriculture, forestry and fishing; Mining
• Secondary Activities: Construction; Manufacturing
• Tertiary Activities: Transportation, electric, gas and sanitary services; Wholesale trade; Retail trade
• Quatenary Activities: Finance, insurance, and real estate; Services; Public administration

More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37414034 and https://web.archive.org/web/20230612141005/https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/74dm5o/seeking_research_on_inclusive_measures_of/.

Essentially, markets fail in establishing pricing in many ways, though how these might be addressed is challenging.

I'll note that I differ with Marx in attributing all value generation to labour, though that's often a significant component.

Risk is a whole 'nother case, and I'll point out that the "FIRE" sector of finance, insurance, and real estate all have a central focus on evaluating pricing risk of a portfolio against income streams (interest payments, premium payments, mortgage payments), with a linkage that's been noted to at least the 19th century if not before. Banks and insurance are the exceptions to Smith's general strong disdain for stock corporations, though an argument can be made for socialisation of these. Many government functions fall into provision of both public goods and security services (defence, health, major catastrophe), in which markets flagrantly fail. Robert K. Merton (overt/covert functions, unintended consequences) and Charles Perrow's work illuminates much here.

Understanding of GNP/GDP is greatly assisted if it's thought of not as a way to manage and measure total economic wealth (Smithian definition), but as a monetary metric born of an age when central banking was just finding its feet. Tuning the overall money supply appropriately is necessary, but not sufficient, and was a huge obstacle to resolving the Great Depression (1929--1939).

It's not the only problem which can occur, for which a classic 1945 paper on the economy of a WWII PoW camp remains an excellent if simplified exploration: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2550133. Kate Raworth's Donut Economics and numerous GDP modifications and alternatives (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Proposals_to_overcome_GDP_limitations) improve on this. Simon Kuznets, GNP's creator, was well aware of its limitations, though his cautions are not only largely ignored, but difficult to find online at all (he has extensive writings, they ... are not digitised last I invested significant time in searching for them).

Thermodynamics and economics is another tremendous failing. The work of Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, R.U. Ayres, and more recently Steve Keene (working with Ayres) in describing how the production function is explained not merely by labour + capital, but labour, capital, and energy is so flagrantly obvious that rejection by the orthodoxy is both a manifestation of mental illness and a crime against humanity and the entire ecosphere. It ties strongly into the "wealth is power" dynamic above, as well as the distortionary effects of wealth on information, media, ideology, and scientific understanding. That last is a major component of Naomi Oreskes's work (Merchants of Doubt, The Big Myth). For the role of energy in civilisation, Vaclav Smil's Energy and Civilization and Energy and World History, and Manfred Weissenbacher's Sources of Power are huge eye-openers. So, somewhat ironically, is Daniel Yergin's The Prize. He's an unabashed apologist for the petroleum industry, but his history does reveal its awesome transformational influence.

1/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #monopoly #oligopoly #wealth #profit #value #prices #wages #WagePrice #rents #AssetValuation #AdamSmith #prices #risk #FireSector #finance #insurance #RealEstate #tootstorm

@Dianora So, a few thoughts on What Might be Done to correct economic thinking ....

Long and multi-part.

First part here delves more into the general failings / holes in contemporary mainstream orthodox economics.

On pricing behaviours of goods and services under typical market conditions, it's possible to read Adam Smith's chapters on prices (mostly Book I, Ch. V--XI, and Book V, Ch. II) as discussing the prices (or tax revenues) of commodities, labour, capital stock (industrial investments), rents, interest, and assets (silver & gold to Smith). These ... behave differently, and not strictly in the supply/demand model dominant in conventional orthodox economics. As noted above, even Matt Ridley, bless his heart, agrees that market valuation of assets ... behaves poorly.

Much oligarchic wealth occurs not through trade but through asset inflation. That is, it's less that someone achieves obscene wealth by selling goods/services than that the commercial-legal entity which manifests that trade itself appreciates in nominal value. Billionaires don't sit atop heaps of cash but of assets which can be denominated in cash equivalents. (Often with many levels of leverage and indirection both.) Matt Ridley, not someone with whom I generally find agreement, has noted that markets work relatively well for commerce exchange but poorly for assets (from a book, I'd run across this in an IQ2 debate w/ David Runciman and Johan Norberg: https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/the-new-optimism-with-matt-ridley-johan-norberg-david-runciman-and-laura-kuenssberg/.)

Wages and rents are two other key dynamics in that wages tend to fall to or below subsistence whilst rents tend to rise to claim all surplus beneficial value. The more one is subsidised (e.g., wage supports, rent subsidies) the worse the dynamic becomes, and this is a money-pump from workers to landlords. Tackling this requires both wage and rent-side reforms, e.g., UBI / living wage, and a wealth or land-value tax. Addressing workers' and tenants' rights is another key element, though more of politics/law than economics itself.

(Law and economics are tightly coupled in interesting ways. Hayek's training, f'rex, was in law.)

Business merger & acquisition is a huge hole in the "vote with your wallet" (a/k/a "free-market it harder") retort. That works if businesses are small, limited, and cannot buy out or otherwise crush competition, but fails utterly if in avoiding firm X by patronising firm Y, one finds X buying Y (often strictly because of customer flight, see e.g., Facebook -> Whatsapp or Amazon -> Diapers.com). Buy-and-kill is another failure mode. Both of these require remedies outside the markets, e.g., political, legal, social, or other actions.

Equivocation of wealth and profit, where wealth ("the annual produce and labour of the nation" https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_II/Chapter_3, which as many have noted means that wealth is a flow rather than a stock), and profit in the accounting sense (direct monetary revenues less direct monetary costs) is one of the more gaping holes in conventional economic argument. I've done some root-searching on that and find that much of the source seems to be in the cost accounting of Alexander Hamilton Church (and yes, related to that A.H.), which serves as the basis for modern accounting practice. Leo Tolstoy's What Shall We Do (a title invoked by Lenin's later book) has some interesting discussions on this.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power" is Smith's pithiest observation in all of WoN: The fact that economic and/or financial wealth translates to political and social power has profound impacts, and alone explains a huge part of the failings of US right-libertarian theology following from Hayek, von Mises, Rotthbard, and Nozick.

"Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (Bernard Stern, 1937) discusses one dimension of this in the resistances of established powers (economic/commercial and others) to technological innovations: https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/page/39 https://rentry.co/szi3g. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Value's equivocation as "market price" in contemporary discussion is another failing. I see "value" actually being three distinct elements, any of which may fail to reflect underlying reality: real cost (all necessary inputs, labour, capital, time, natural resources, effluent sinks, unwanted/unintended consequences), exchange value (price), and use value. In practice, C <= P <= UV, that is, the exchange value lies somewhere between cost and use value, though in extreme circumstances that can be violated. In particular, extractive resources tend to have P < C, that is, the price is below the total cost, especially the time-based replenishment cost, of the resource; labour wages tend to fall to subsistence, rents tend to rise to subsume all use value, asset prices ... are strange (I've not sorted my thinking on this), interest rates seem to be a mix of market and central bank effects, and public goods (in the economic definition) are those for which market prices fall well below marginal cost and use-value, and are underprovisioned absent specific subsidy, with lighthouses, education, roads, infrastructure, information, and communications being classic exemplars.

Incidentally, the whole notion of a market exchange economy fundamentally relies on the underpricing of essnetial inputs (food, energy, raw materials, labour) with excess value being extracted at further levels of economic activity (manufacture, commerce, transport, finance, management, etc.) This is the revelation of Quesnay's Tableau Économique and further explorations of tiers of economic activity (Clark & Kennessey particularly). Typical categorisation:

• Primary Activities: Agriculture, forestry and fishing; Mining
• Secondary Activities: Construction; Manufacturing
• Tertiary Activities: Transportation, electric, gas and sanitary services; Wholesale trade; Retail trade
• Quatenary Activities: Finance, insurance, and real estate; Services; Public administration

More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37414034 and https://web.archive.org/web/20230612141005/https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/74dm5o/seeking_research_on_inclusive_measures_of/.

Essentially, markets fail in establishing pricing in many ways, though how these might be addressed is challenging.

I'll note that I differ with Marx in attributing all value generation to labour, though that's often a significant component.

Risk is a whole 'nother case, and I'll point out that the "FIRE" sector of finance, insurance, and real estate all have a central focus on evaluating pricing risk of a portfolio against income streams (interest payments, premium payments, mortgage payments), with a linkage that's been noted to at least the 19th century if not before. Banks and insurance are the exceptions to Smith's general strong disdain for stock corporations, though an argument can be made for socialisation of these. Many government functions fall into provision of both public goods and security services (defence, health, major catastrophe), in which markets flagrantly fail. Robert K. Merton (overt/covert functions, unintended consequences) and Charles Perrow's work illuminates much here.

Understanding of GNP/GDP is greatly assisted if it's thought of not as a way to manage and measure total economic wealth (Smithian definition), but as a monetary metric born of an age when central banking was just finding its feet. Tuning the overall money supply appropriately is necessary, but not sufficient, and was a huge obstacle to resolving the Great Depression (1929--1939).

It's not the only problem which can occur, for which a classic 1945 paper on the economy of a WWII PoW camp remains an excellent if simplified exploration: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2550133. Kate Raworth's Donut Economics and numerous GDP modifications and alternatives (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Proposals_to_overcome_GDP_limitations) improve on this. Simon Kuznets, GNP's creator, was well aware of its limitations, though his cautions are not only largely ignored, but difficult to find online at all (he has extensive writings, they ... are not digitised last I invested significant time in searching for them).

Thermodynamics and economics is another tremendous failing. The work of Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, R.U. Ayres, and more recently Steve Keene (working with Ayres) in describing how the production function is explained not merely by labour + capital, but labour, capital, and energy is so flagrantly obvious that rejection by the orthodoxy is both a manifestation of mental illness and a crime against humanity and the entire ecosphere. It ties strongly into the "wealth is power" dynamic above, as well as the distortionary effects of wealth on information, media, ideology, and scientific understanding. That last is a major component of Naomi Oreskes's work (Merchants of Doubt, The Big Myth). For the role of energy in civilisation, Vaclav Smil's Energy and Civilization and Energy and World History, and Manfred Weissenbacher's Sources of Power are huge eye-openers. So, somewhat ironically, is Daniel Yergin's The Prize. He's an unabashed apologist for the petroleum industry, but his history does reveal its awesome transformational influence.

1/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #monopoly #oligopoly #wealth #profit #value #prices #wages #WagePrice #rents #AssetValuation #AdamSmith #prices #risk #FireSector #finance #insurance #RealEstate #tootstorm

@Dianora So, a few thoughts on What Might be Done to correct economic thinking ....

Long and multi-part.

First part here delves more into the general failings / holes in contemporary mainstream orthodox economics.

On pricing behaviours of goods and services under typical market conditions, it's possible to read Adam Smith's chapters on prices (mostly Book I, Ch. V--XI, and Book V, Ch. II) as discussing the prices (or tax revenues) of commodities, labour, capital stock (industrial investments), rents, interest, and assets (silver & gold to Smith). These ... behave differently, and not strictly in the supply/demand model dominant in conventional orthodox economics. As noted above, even Matt Ridley, bless his heart, agrees that market valuation of assets ... behaves poorly.

Much oligarchic wealth occurs not through trade but through asset inflation. That is, it's less that someone achieves obscene wealth by selling goods/services than that the commercial-legal entity which manifests that trade itself appreciates in nominal value. Billionaires don't sit atop heaps of cash but of assets which can be denominated in cash equivalents. (Often with many levels of leverage and indirection both.) Matt Ridley, not someone with whom I generally find agreement, has noted that markets work relatively well for commerce exchange but poorly for assets (from a book, I'd run across this in an IQ2 debate w/ David Runciman and Johan Norberg: https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/the-new-optimism-with-matt-ridley-johan-norberg-david-runciman-and-laura-kuenssberg/.)

Wages and rents are two other key dynamics in that wages tend to fall to or below subsistence whilst rents tend to rise to claim all surplus beneficial value. The more one is subsidised (e.g., wage supports, rent subsidies) the worse the dynamic becomes, and this is a money-pump from workers to landlords. Tackling this requires both wage and rent-side reforms, e.g., UBI / living wage, and a wealth or land-value tax. Addressing workers' and tenants' rights is another key element, though more of politics/law than economics itself.

(Law and economics are tightly coupled in interesting ways. Hayek's training, f'rex, was in law.)

Business merger & acquisition is a huge hole in the "vote with your wallet" (a/k/a "free-market it harder") retort. That works if businesses are small, limited, and cannot buy out or otherwise crush competition, but fails utterly if in avoiding firm X by patronising firm Y, one finds X buying Y (often strictly because of customer flight, see e.g., Facebook -> Whatsapp or Amazon -> Diapers.com). Buy-and-kill is another failure mode. Both of these require remedies outside the markets, e.g., political, legal, social, or other actions.

Equivocation of wealth and profit, where wealth ("the annual produce and labour of the nation" https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_II/Chapter_3, which as many have noted means that wealth is a flow rather than a stock), and profit in the accounting sense (direct monetary revenues less direct monetary costs) is one of the more gaping holes in conventional economic argument. I've done some root-searching on that and find that much of the source seems to be in the cost accounting of Alexander Hamilton Church (and yes, related to that A.H.), which serves as the basis for modern accounting practice. Leo Tolstoy's What Shall We Do (a title invoked by Lenin's later book) has some interesting discussions on this.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power" is Smith's pithiest observation in all of WoN: The fact that economic and/or financial wealth translates to political and social power has profound impacts, and alone explains a huge part of the failings of US right-libertarian theology following from Hayek, von Mises, Rotthbard, and Nozick.

"Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (Bernard Stern, 1937) discusses one dimension of this in the resistances of established powers (economic/commercial and others) to technological innovations: https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/page/39 https://rentry.co/szi3g. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Value's equivocation as "market price" in contemporary discussion is another failing. I see "value" actually being three distinct elements, any of which may fail to reflect underlying reality: real cost (all necessary inputs, labour, capital, time, natural resources, effluent sinks, unwanted/unintended consequences), exchange value (price), and use value. In practice, C <= P <= UV, that is, the exchange value lies somewhere between cost and use value, though in extreme circumstances that can be violated. In particular, extractive resources tend to have P < C, that is, the price is below the total cost, especially the time-based replenishment cost, of the resource; labour wages tend to fall to subsistence, rents tend to rise to subsume all use value, asset prices ... are strange (I've not sorted my thinking on this), interest rates seem to be a mix of market and central bank effects, and public goods (in the economic definition) are those for which market prices fall well below marginal cost and use-value, and are underprovisioned absent specific subsidy, with lighthouses, education, roads, infrastructure, information, and communications being classic exemplars.

Incidentally, the whole notion of a market exchange economy fundamentally relies on the underpricing of essnetial inputs (food, energy, raw materials, labour) with excess value being extracted at further levels of economic activity (manufacture, commerce, transport, finance, management, etc.) This is the revelation of Quesnay's Tableau Économique and further explorations of tiers of economic activity (Clark & Kennessey particularly). Typical categorisation:

• Primary Activities: Agriculture, forestry and fishing; Mining
• Secondary Activities: Construction; Manufacturing
• Tertiary Activities: Transportation, electric, gas and sanitary services; Wholesale trade; Retail trade
• Quatenary Activities: Finance, insurance, and real estate; Services; Public administration

More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37414034 and https://web.archive.org/web/20230612141005/https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/74dm5o/seeking_research_on_inclusive_measures_of/.

Essentially, markets fail in establishing pricing in many ways, though how these might be addressed is challenging.

I'll note that I differ with Marx in attributing all value generation to labour, though that's often a significant component.

Risk is a whole 'nother case, and I'll point out that the "FIRE" sector of finance, insurance, and real estate all have a central focus on evaluating pricing risk of a portfolio against income streams (interest payments, premium payments, mortgage payments), with a linkage that's been noted to at least the 19th century if not before. Banks and insurance are the exceptions to Smith's general strong disdain for stock corporations, though an argument can be made for socialisation of these. Many government functions fall into provision of both public goods and security services (defence, health, major catastrophe), in which markets flagrantly fail. Robert K. Merton (overt/covert functions, unintended consequences) and Charles Perrow's work illuminates much here.

Understanding of GNP/GDP is greatly assisted if it's thought of not as a way to manage and measure total economic wealth (Smithian definition), but as a monetary metric born of an age when central banking was just finding its feet. Tuning the overall money supply appropriately is necessary, but not sufficient, and was a huge obstacle to resolving the Great Depression (1929--1939).

It's not the only problem which can occur, for which a classic 1945 paper on the economy of a WWII PoW camp remains an excellent if simplified exploration: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2550133. Kate Raworth's Donut Economics and numerous GDP modifications and alternatives (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Proposals_to_overcome_GDP_limitations) improve on this. Simon Kuznets, GNP's creator, was well aware of its limitations, though his cautions are not only largely ignored, but difficult to find online at all (he has extensive writings, they ... are not digitised last I invested significant time in searching for them).

Thermodynamics and economics is another tremendous failing. The work of Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, R.U. Ayres, and more recently Steve Keene (working with Ayres) in describing how the production function is explained not merely by labour + capital, but labour, capital, and energy is so flagrantly obvious that rejection by the orthodoxy is both a manifestation of mental illness and a crime against humanity and the entire ecosphere. It ties strongly into the "wealth is power" dynamic above, as well as the distortionary effects of wealth on information, media, ideology, and scientific understanding. That last is a major component of Naomi Oreskes's work (Merchants of Doubt, The Big Myth). For the role of energy in civilisation, Vaclav Smil's Energy and Civilization and Energy and World History, and Manfred Weissenbacher's Sources of Power are huge eye-openers. So, somewhat ironically, is Daniel Yergin's The Prize. He's an unabashed apologist for the petroleum industry, but his history does reveal its awesome transformational influence.

1/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #monopoly #oligopoly #wealth #profit #value #prices #wages #WagePrice #rents #AssetValuation #AdamSmith #prices #risk #FireSector #finance #insurance #RealEstate #tootstorm

@Dianora So, a few thoughts on What Might be Done to correct economic thinking ....

Long and multi-part.

First part here delves more into the general failings / holes in contemporary mainstream orthodox economics.

On pricing behaviours of goods and services under typical market conditions, it's possible to read Adam Smith's chapters on prices (mostly Book I, Ch. V--XI, and Book V, Ch. II) as discussing the prices (or tax revenues) of commodities, labour, capital stock (industrial investments), rents, interest, and assets (silver & gold to Smith). These ... behave differently, and not strictly in the supply/demand model dominant in conventional orthodox economics. As noted above, even Matt Ridley, bless his heart, agrees that market valuation of assets ... behaves poorly.

Much oligarchic wealth occurs not through trade but through asset inflation. That is, it's less that someone achieves obscene wealth by selling goods/services than that the commercial-legal entity which manifests that trade itself appreciates in nominal value. Billionaires don't sit atop heaps of cash but of assets which can be denominated in cash equivalents. (Often with many levels of leverage and indirection both.) Matt Ridley, not someone with whom I generally find agreement, has noted that markets work relatively well for commerce exchange but poorly for assets (from a book, I'd run across this in an IQ2 debate w/ David Runciman and Johan Norberg: https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/the-new-optimism-with-matt-ridley-johan-norberg-david-runciman-and-laura-kuenssberg/.)

Wages and rents are two other key dynamics in that wages tend to fall to or below subsistence whilst rents tend to rise to claim all surplus beneficial value. The more one is subsidised (e.g., wage supports, rent subsidies) the worse the dynamic becomes, and this is a money-pump from workers to landlords. Tackling this requires both wage and rent-side reforms, e.g., UBI / living wage, and a wealth or land-value tax. Addressing workers' and tenants' rights is another key element, though more of politics/law than economics itself.

(Law and economics are tightly coupled in interesting ways. Hayek's training, f'rex, was in law.)

Business merger & acquisition is a huge hole in the "vote with your wallet" (a/k/a "free-market it harder") retort. That works if businesses are small, limited, and cannot buy out or otherwise crush competition, but fails utterly if in avoiding firm X by patronising firm Y, one finds X buying Y (often strictly because of customer flight, see e.g., Facebook -> Whatsapp or Amazon -> Diapers.com). Buy-and-kill is another failure mode. Both of these require remedies outside the markets, e.g., political, legal, social, or other actions.

Equivocation of wealth and profit, where wealth ("the annual produce and labour of the nation" https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_II/Chapter_3, which as many have noted means that wealth is a flow rather than a stock), and profit in the accounting sense (direct monetary revenues less direct monetary costs) is one of the more gaping holes in conventional economic argument. I've done some root-searching on that and find that much of the source seems to be in the cost accounting of Alexander Hamilton Church (and yes, related to that A.H.), which serves as the basis for modern accounting practice. Leo Tolstoy's What Shall We Do (a title invoked by Lenin's later book) has some interesting discussions on this.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power" is Smith's pithiest observation in all of WoN: The fact that economic and/or financial wealth translates to political and social power has profound impacts, and alone explains a huge part of the failings of US right-libertarian theology following from Hayek, von Mises, Rotthbard, and Nozick.

"Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (Bernard Stern, 1937) discusses one dimension of this in the resistances of established powers (economic/commercial and others) to technological innovations: https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/page/39 https://rentry.co/szi3g. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Value's equivocation as "market price" in contemporary discussion is another failing. I see "value" actually being three distinct elements, any of which may fail to reflect underlying reality: real cost (all necessary inputs, labour, capital, time, natural resources, effluent sinks, unwanted/unintended consequences), exchange value (price), and use value. In practice, C <= P <= UV, that is, the exchange value lies somewhere between cost and use value, though in extreme circumstances that can be violated. In particular, extractive resources tend to have P < C, that is, the price is below the total cost, especially the time-based replenishment cost, of the resource; labour wages tend to fall to subsistence, rents tend to rise to subsume all use value, asset prices ... are strange (I've not sorted my thinking on this), interest rates seem to be a mix of market and central bank effects, and public goods (in the economic definition) are those for which market prices fall well below marginal cost and use-value, and are underprovisioned absent specific subsidy, with lighthouses, education, roads, infrastructure, information, and communications being classic exemplars.

Incidentally, the whole notion of a market exchange economy fundamentally relies on the underpricing of essnetial inputs (food, energy, raw materials, labour) with excess value being extracted at further levels of economic activity (manufacture, commerce, transport, finance, management, etc.) This is the revelation of Quesnay's Tableau Économique and further explorations of tiers of economic activity (Clark & Kennessey particularly). Typical categorisation:

• Primary Activities: Agriculture, forestry and fishing; Mining
• Secondary Activities: Construction; Manufacturing
• Tertiary Activities: Transportation, electric, gas and sanitary services; Wholesale trade; Retail trade
• Quatenary Activities: Finance, insurance, and real estate; Services; Public administration

More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37414034 and https://web.archive.org/web/20230612141005/https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/74dm5o/seeking_research_on_inclusive_measures_of/.

Essentially, markets fail in establishing pricing in many ways, though how these might be addressed is challenging.

I'll note that I differ with Marx in attributing all value generation to labour, though that's often a significant component.

Risk is a whole 'nother case, and I'll point out that the "FIRE" sector of finance, insurance, and real estate all have a central focus on evaluating pricing risk of a portfolio against income streams (interest payments, premium payments, mortgage payments), with a linkage that's been noted to at least the 19th century if not before. Banks and insurance are the exceptions to Smith's general strong disdain for stock corporations, though an argument can be made for socialisation of these. Many government functions fall into provision of both public goods and security services (defence, health, major catastrophe), in which markets flagrantly fail. Robert K. Merton (overt/covert functions, unintended consequences) and Charles Perrow's work illuminates much here.

Understanding of GNP/GDP is greatly assisted if it's thought of not as a way to manage and measure total economic wealth (Smithian definition), but as a monetary metric born of an age when central banking was just finding its feet. Tuning the overall money supply appropriately is necessary, but not sufficient, and was a huge obstacle to resolving the Great Depression (1929--1939).

It's not the only problem which can occur, for which a classic 1945 paper on the economy of a WWII PoW camp remains an excellent if simplified exploration: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2550133. Kate Raworth's Donut Economics and numerous GDP modifications and alternatives (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Proposals_to_overcome_GDP_limitations) improve on this. Simon Kuznets, GNP's creator, was well aware of its limitations, though his cautions are not only largely ignored, but difficult to find online at all (he has extensive writings, they ... are not digitised last I invested significant time in searching for them).

Thermodynamics and economics is another tremendous failing. The work of Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, R.U. Ayres, and more recently Steve Keene (working with Ayres) in describing how the production function is explained not merely by labour + capital, but labour, capital, and energy is so flagrantly obvious that rejection by the orthodoxy is both a manifestation of mental illness and a crime against humanity and the entire ecosphere. It ties strongly into the "wealth is power" dynamic above, as well as the distortionary effects of wealth on information, media, ideology, and scientific understanding. That last is a major component of Naomi Oreskes's work (Merchants of Doubt, The Big Myth). For the role of energy in civilisation, Vaclav Smil's Energy and Civilization and Energy and World History, and Manfred Weissenbacher's Sources of Power are huge eye-openers. So, somewhat ironically, is Daniel Yergin's The Prize. He's an unabashed apologist for the petroleum industry, but his history does reveal its awesome transformational influence.

1/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #monopoly #oligopoly #wealth #profit #value #prices #wages #WagePrice #rents #AssetValuation #AdamSmith #prices #risk #FireSector #finance #insurance #RealEstate #tootstorm

@Dianora So, a few thoughts on What Might be Done to correct economic thinking ....

Long and multi-part.

First part here delves more into the general failings / holes in contemporary mainstream orthodox economics.

On pricing behaviours of goods and services under typical market conditions, it's possible to read Adam Smith's chapters on prices (mostly Book I, Ch. V--XI, and Book V, Ch. II) as discussing the prices (or tax revenues) of commodities, labour, capital stock (industrial investments), rents, interest, and assets (silver & gold to Smith). These ... behave differently, and not strictly in the supply/demand model dominant in conventional orthodox economics. As noted above, even Matt Ridley, bless his heart, agrees that market valuation of assets ... behaves poorly.

Much oligarchic wealth occurs not through trade but through asset inflation. That is, it's less that someone achieves obscene wealth by selling goods/services than that the commercial-legal entity which manifests that trade itself appreciates in nominal value. Billionaires don't sit atop heaps of cash but of assets which can be denominated in cash equivalents. (Often with many levels of leverage and indirection both.) Matt Ridley, not someone with whom I generally find agreement, has noted that markets work relatively well for commerce exchange but poorly for assets (from a book, I'd run across this in an IQ2 debate w/ David Runciman and Johan Norberg: https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/the-new-optimism-with-matt-ridley-johan-norberg-david-runciman-and-laura-kuenssberg/.)

Wages and rents are two other key dynamics in that wages tend to fall to or below subsistence whilst rents tend to rise to claim all surplus beneficial value. The more one is subsidised (e.g., wage supports, rent subsidies) the worse the dynamic becomes, and this is a money-pump from workers to landlords. Tackling this requires both wage and rent-side reforms, e.g., UBI / living wage, and a wealth or land-value tax. Addressing workers' and tenants' rights is another key element, though more of politics/law than economics itself.

(Law and economics are tightly coupled in interesting ways. Hayek's training, f'rex, was in law.)

Business merger & acquisition is a huge hole in the "vote with your wallet" (a/k/a "free-market it harder") retort. That works if businesses are small, limited, and cannot buy out or otherwise crush competition, but fails utterly if in avoiding firm X by patronising firm Y, one finds X buying Y (often strictly because of customer flight, see e.g., Facebook -> Whatsapp or Amazon -> Diapers.com). Buy-and-kill is another failure mode. Both of these require remedies outside the markets, e.g., political, legal, social, or other actions.

Equivocation of wealth and profit, where wealth ("the annual produce and labour of the nation" https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_II/Chapter_3, which as many have noted means that wealth is a flow rather than a stock), and profit in the accounting sense (direct monetary revenues less direct monetary costs) is one of the more gaping holes in conventional economic argument. I've done some root-searching on that and find that much of the source seems to be in the cost accounting of Alexander Hamilton Church (and yes, related to that A.H.), which serves as the basis for modern accounting practice. Leo Tolstoy's What Shall We Do (a title invoked by Lenin's later book) has some interesting discussions on this.

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power" is Smith's pithiest observation in all of WoN: The fact that economic and/or financial wealth translates to political and social power has profound impacts, and alone explains a huge part of the failings of US right-libertarian theology following from Hayek, von Mises, Rotthbard, and Nozick.

"Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations" (Bernard Stern, 1937) discusses one dimension of this in the resistances of established powers (economic/commercial and others) to technological innovations: https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/page/39 https://rentry.co/szi3g. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Value's equivocation as "market price" in contemporary discussion is another failing. I see "value" actually being three distinct elements, any of which may fail to reflect underlying reality: real cost (all necessary inputs, labour, capital, time, natural resources, effluent sinks, unwanted/unintended consequences), exchange value (price), and use value. In practice, C <= P <= UV, that is, the exchange value lies somewhere between cost and use value, though in extreme circumstances that can be violated. In particular, extractive resources tend to have P < C, that is, the price is below the total cost, especially the time-based replenishment cost, of the resource; labour wages tend to fall to subsistence, rents tend to rise to subsume all use value, asset prices ... are strange (I've not sorted my thinking on this), interest rates seem to be a mix of market and central bank effects, and public goods (in the economic definition) are those for which market prices fall well below marginal cost and use-value, and are underprovisioned absent specific subsidy, with lighthouses, education, roads, infrastructure, information, and communications being classic exemplars.

Incidentally, the whole notion of a market exchange economy fundamentally relies on the underpricing of essnetial inputs (food, energy, raw materials, labour) with excess value being extracted at further levels of economic activity (manufacture, commerce, transport, finance, management, etc.) This is the revelation of Quesnay's Tableau Économique and further explorations of tiers of economic activity (Clark & Kennessey particularly). Typical categorisation:

• Primary Activities: Agriculture, forestry and fishing; Mining
• Secondary Activities: Construction; Manufacturing
• Tertiary Activities: Transportation, electric, gas and sanitary services; Wholesale trade; Retail trade
• Quatenary Activities: Finance, insurance, and real estate; Services; Public administration

More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37414034 and https://web.archive.org/web/20230612141005/https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/74dm5o/seeking_research_on_inclusive_measures_of/.

Essentially, markets fail in establishing pricing in many ways, though how these might be addressed is challenging.

I'll note that I differ with Marx in attributing all value generation to labour, though that's often a significant component.

Risk is a whole 'nother case, and I'll point out that the "FIRE" sector of finance, insurance, and real estate all have a central focus on evaluating pricing risk of a portfolio against income streams (interest payments, premium payments, mortgage payments), with a linkage that's been noted to at least the 19th century if not before. Banks and insurance are the exceptions to Smith's general strong disdain for stock corporations, though an argument can be made for socialisation of these. Many government functions fall into provision of both public goods and security services (defence, health, major catastrophe), in which markets flagrantly fail. Robert K. Merton (overt/covert functions, unintended consequences) and Charles Perrow's work illuminates much here.

Understanding of GNP/GDP is greatly assisted if it's thought of not as a way to manage and measure total economic wealth (Smithian definition), but as a monetary metric born of an age when central banking was just finding its feet. Tuning the overall money supply appropriately is necessary, but not sufficient, and was a huge obstacle to resolving the Great Depression (1929--1939).

It's not the only problem which can occur, for which a classic 1945 paper on the economy of a WWII PoW camp remains an excellent if simplified exploration: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2550133. Kate Raworth's Donut Economics and numerous GDP modifications and alternatives (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Proposals_to_overcome_GDP_limitations) improve on this. Simon Kuznets, GNP's creator, was well aware of its limitations, though his cautions are not only largely ignored, but difficult to find online at all (he has extensive writings, they ... are not digitised last I invested significant time in searching for them).

Thermodynamics and economics is another tremendous failing. The work of Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, R.U. Ayres, and more recently Steve Keene (working with Ayres) in describing how the production function is explained not merely by labour + capital, but labour, capital, and energy is so flagrantly obvious that rejection by the orthodoxy is both a manifestation of mental illness and a crime against humanity and the entire ecosphere. It ties strongly into the "wealth is power" dynamic above, as well as the distortionary effects of wealth on information, media, ideology, and scientific understanding. That last is a major component of Naomi Oreskes's work (Merchants of Doubt, The Big Myth). For the role of energy in civilisation, Vaclav Smil's Energy and Civilization and Energy and World History, and Manfred Weissenbacher's Sources of Power are huge eye-openers. So, somewhat ironically, is Daniel Yergin's The Prize. He's an unabashed apologist for the petroleum industry, but his history does reveal its awesome transformational influence.

1/

#economics #orthodoxEconomics #critique #monopoly #oligopoly #wealth #profit #value #prices #wages #WagePrice #rents #AssetValuation #AdamSmith #prices #risk #FireSector #finance #insurance #RealEstate #tootstorm

I found https://mastodon.social/@danluu 's Why Do People post on Bad Platform instead? to be an interesting explanation of the appeal of microblogging

https://danluu.com/why-video/

#microblogging #tootstorm #psychology #writing

Heute #tootstorm von @janboehm und ich liebs. ☺️

@jerry Breaking point theory, to put a name to it, emerges from the fact that it's often far easier to sever a link than to re-establish it. A block (individual, mutual, adminstrative / instance / server / network level) tends to remain in place once instituted. Which means that within any group, interactions occur up to some tolerance boundary after which they're disabled and are likely never reestablished.

I've seen this both personally (online and off), as well as in commercial and other contexts --- say, a business, vendor, or customer who crosses some annoyance threshold sufficiently often or egregiously that there is a decision by the counterparty to never do business again (or only under extreme duress / protest).

That of course is further confounded by issues such as monopoly / monopsony, other power imbalances, cultural and institutional biases or oppression, and All That Jazz. It's one thing to boycott your local sandwich shop for the transgression of putting sweet mustard on rye, another when Ye Global Information Monopoly Firme is the only option for reaching a large-scale audience, or participating meaningfully in public life, and yet it consistently violates not only deeply-held personal moral values but demonstrably supports / incites / enables mass atrocities.

I strongly suspect there's a sociology literature on this, though I'm not aware of it. I'd love to see it though.

3/end/

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

@jerry Breaking point theory, to put a name to it, emerges from the fact that it's often far easier to sever a link than to re-establish it. A block (individual, mutual, adminstrative / instance / server / network level) tends to remain in place once instituted. Which means that within any group, interactions occur up to some tolerance boundary after which they're disabled and are likely never reestablished.

I've seen this both personally (online and off), as well as in commercial and other contexts --- say, a business, vendor, or customer who crosses some annoyance threshold sufficiently often or egregiously that there is a decision by the counterparty to never do business again (or only under extreme duress / protest).

That of course is further confounded by issues such as monopoly / monopsony, other power imbalances, cultural and institutional biases or oppression, and All That Jazz. It's one thing to boycott your local sandwich shop for the transgression of putting sweet mustard on rye, another when Ye Global Information Monopoly Firme is the only option for reaching a large-scale audience, or participating meaningfully in public life, and yet it consistently violates not only deeply-held personal moral values but demonstrably supports / incites / enables mass atrocities.

I strongly suspect there's a sociology literature on this, though I'm not aware of it. I'd love to see it though.

3/end/

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

@jerry Breaking point theory, to put a name to it, emerges from the fact that it's often far easier to sever a link than to re-establish it. A block (individual, mutual, adminstrative / instance / server / network level) tends to remain in place once instituted. Which means that within any group, interactions occur up to some tolerance boundary after which they're disabled and are likely never reestablished.

I've seen this both personally (online and off), as well as in commercial and other contexts --- say, a business, vendor, or customer who crosses some annoyance threshold sufficiently often or egregiously that there is a decision by the counterparty to never do business again (or only under extreme duress / protest).

That of course is further confounded by issues such as monopoly / monopsony, other power imbalances, cultural and institutional biases or oppression, and All That Jazz. It's one thing to boycott your local sandwich shop for the transgression of putting sweet mustard on rye, another when Ye Global Information Monopoly Firme is the only option for reaching a large-scale audience, or participating meaningfully in public life, and yet it consistently violates not only deeply-held personal moral values but demonstrably supports / incites / enables mass atrocities.

I strongly suspect there's a sociology literature on this, though I'm not aware of it. I'd love to see it though.

3/end/

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

@jerry Breaking point theory, to put a name to it, emerges from the fact that it's often far easier to sever a link than to re-establish it. A block (individual, mutual, adminstrative / instance / server / network level) tends to remain in place once instituted. Which means that within any group, interactions occur up to some tolerance boundary after which they're disabled and are likely never reestablished.

I've seen this both personally (online and off), as well as in commercial and other contexts --- say, a business, vendor, or customer who crosses some annoyance threshold sufficiently often or egregiously that there is a decision by the counterparty to never do business again (or only under extreme duress / protest).

That of course is further confounded by issues such as monopoly / monopsony, other power imbalances, cultural and institutional biases or oppression, and All That Jazz. It's one thing to boycott your local sandwich shop for the transgression of putting sweet mustard on rye, another when Ye Global Information Monopoly Firme is the only option for reaching a large-scale audience, or participating meaningfully in public life, and yet it consistently violates not only deeply-held personal moral values but demonstrably supports / incites / enables mass atrocities.

I strongly suspect there's a sociology literature on this, though I'm not aware of it. I'd love to see it though.

3/end/

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

@jerry Breaking point theory, to put a name to it, emerges from the fact that it's often far easier to sever a link than to re-establish it. A block (individual, mutual, adminstrative / instance / server / network level) tends to remain in place once instituted. Which means that within any group, interactions occur up to some tolerance boundary after which they're disabled and are likely never reestablished.

I've seen this both personally (online and off), as well as in commercial and other contexts --- say, a business, vendor, or customer who crosses some annoyance threshold sufficiently often or egregiously that there is a decision by the counterparty to never do business again (or only under extreme duress / protest).

That of course is further confounded by issues such as monopoly / monopsony, other power imbalances, cultural and institutional biases or oppression, and All That Jazz. It's one thing to boycott your local sandwich shop for the transgression of putting sweet mustard on rye, another when Ye Global Information Monopoly Firme is the only option for reaching a large-scale audience, or participating meaningfully in public life, and yet it consistently violates not only deeply-held personal moral values but demonstrably supports / incites / enables mass atrocities.

I strongly suspect there's a sociology literature on this, though I'm not aware of it. I'd love to see it though.

3/end/

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

@jerry Right, and strong agreement all around.

On replies: it strikes me as strongly inconsistent for someone to insist on the right to publish publicly (a redundant phrase itself, to "publish" is "to make publicly known": https://www.etymonline.com/word/publish), but not suffer responses, and I'm a bit chafed when the immediate response is to attack those replying ... but, and this is a BIG BUT: I can also understand and sympathise with that viewpoint, especially from disempowered / minority viewpoints who must be under a unrelenting barrage of such responses. So I cut a lot of slack there.

Though I'll also make an assessment of whether or not there's likely to be any productive mutual engagement, and if it seems not, I'll block without prejudice simply to spare us both further pain. (That is, no harm, no foul, this is for the sake of equanimity for both of us.)

And you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to / pick your battles.

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

Edit: Added #AllTheHashtags

1/

@jerry Right, and strong agreement all around.

On replies: it strikes me as strongly inconsistent for someone to insist on the right to publish publicly (a redundant phrase itself, to "publish" is "to make publicly known": https://www.etymonline.com/word/publish), but not suffer responses, and I'm a bit chafed when the immediate response is to attack those replying ... but, and this is a BIG BUT: I can also understand and sympathise with that viewpoint, especially from disempowered / minority viewpoints who must be under a unrelenting barrage of such responses. So I cut a lot of slack there.

Though I'll also make an assessment of whether or not there's likely to be any productive mutual engagement, and if it seems not, I'll block without prejudice simply to spare us both further pain. (That is, no harm, no foul, this is for the sake of equanimity for both of us.)

And you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to / pick your battles.

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

Edit: Added #AllTheHashtags

1/

@jerry Right, and strong agreement all around.

On replies: it strikes me as strongly inconsistent for someone to insist on the right to publish publicly (a redundant phrase itself, to "publish" is "to make publicly known": https://www.etymonline.com/word/publish), but not suffer responses, and I'm a bit chafed when the immediate response is to attack those replying ... but, and this is a BIG BUT: I can also understand and sympathise with that viewpoint, especially from disempowered / minority viewpoints who must be under a unrelenting barrage of such responses. So I cut a lot of slack there.

Though I'll also make an assessment of whether or not there's likely to be any productive mutual engagement, and if it seems not, I'll block without prejudice simply to spare us both further pain. (That is, no harm, no foul, this is for the sake of equanimity for both of us.)

And you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to / pick your battles.

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

Edit: Added #AllTheHashtags

1/

@jerry Right, and strong agreement all around.

On replies: it strikes me as strongly inconsistent for someone to insist on the right to publish publicly (a redundant phrase itself, to "publish" is "to make publicly known": https://www.etymonline.com/word/publish), but not suffer responses, and I'm a bit chafed when the immediate response is to attack those replying ... but, and this is a BIG BUT: I can also understand and sympathise with that viewpoint, especially from disempowered / minority viewpoints who must be under a unrelenting barrage of such responses. So I cut a lot of slack there.

Though I'll also make an assessment of whether or not there's likely to be any productive mutual engagement, and if it seems not, I'll block without prejudice simply to spare us both further pain. (That is, no harm, no foul, this is for the sake of equanimity for both of us.)

And you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to / pick your battles.

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

Edit: Added #AllTheHashtags

1/

@jerry Right, and strong agreement all around.

On replies: it strikes me as strongly inconsistent for someone to insist on the right to publish publicly (a redundant phrase itself, to "publish" is "to make publicly known": https://www.etymonline.com/word/publish), but not suffer responses, and I'm a bit chafed when the immediate response is to attack those replying ... but, and this is a BIG BUT: I can also understand and sympathise with that viewpoint, especially from disempowered / minority viewpoints who must be under a unrelenting barrage of such responses. So I cut a lot of slack there.

Though I'll also make an assessment of whether or not there's likely to be any productive mutual engagement, and if it seems not, I'll block without prejudice simply to spare us both further pain. (That is, no harm, no foul, this is for the sake of equanimity for both of us.)

And you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to / pick your battles.

#Tootstorm #BreakingPointTheory #SocialTopology #Privacy #Public #Blocking #SocialNetworks #SocialMedia #Sociology

Edit: Added #AllTheHashtags

1/

So fair warning: The #CFB playoff game between the #2 ranked Michigan Wolverines and #3 ranked TCU Horned Frogs starts in just a bit.

If you don't want to see my #TootStorm, I'd mute the #Football hashtag now.

#GoBlue

Dred's 2022 Podcast Recommendations

My top three, well, four (though the fourth is a few hundred) podcasts of the year.

Deets follow separately.

1. "Philosophize This" by Stephen West: https://www.philosophizethis.org/
2. "History of Philosophy (Without Any Gaps)" by Peter Adamson: https://historyofphilosophy.net/
3. "Complexity" from the Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/culture/podcasts#Complexity
4. "The New Books Network", edited by Marshall Poe https://newbooksnetwork.com/

#PhilosophizeThis #StephenWest #HistoryOfPhilosophy #PeterAdamson #ComplexityPodcast #SantaFeInstitute #NewBookNetwork #MarhsallPoe #Podcasts #Recommendations #Tootstorm

1/n

Dred's 2022 Podcast Recommendations

My top three, well, four (though the fourth is a few hundred) podcasts of the year.

Deets follow separately.

1. "Philosophize This" by Stephen West: https://www.philosophizethis.org/
2. "History of Philosophy (Without Any Gaps)" by Peter Adamson: https://historyofphilosophy.net/
3. "Complexity" from the Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/culture/podcasts#Complexity
4. "The New Books Network", edited by Marshall Poe https://newbooksnetwork.com/

#PhilosophizeThis #StephenWest #HistoryOfPhilosophy #PeterAdamson #ComplexityPodcast #SantaFeInstitute #NewBookNetwork #MarhsallPoe #Podcasts #Recommendations #Tootstorm

1/n

Dred's 2022 Podcast Recommendations

My top three, well, four (though the fourth is a few hundred) podcasts of the year.

Deets follow separately.

1. "Philosophize This" by Stephen West: https://www.philosophizethis.org/
2. "History of Philosophy (Without Any Gaps)" by Peter Adamson: https://historyofphilosophy.net/
3. "Complexity" from the Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/culture/podcasts#Complexity
4. "The New Books Network", edited by Marshall Poe https://newbooksnetwork.com/

#PhilosophizeThis #StephenWest #HistoryOfPhilosophy #PeterAdamson #ComplexityPodcast #SantaFeInstitute #NewBookNetwork #MarhsallPoe #Podcasts #Recommendations #Tootstorm

1/n

Dred's 2022 Podcast Recommendations

My top three, well, four (though the fourth is a few hundred) podcasts of the year.

Deets follow separately.

1. "Philosophize This" by Stephen West: https://www.philosophizethis.org/
2. "History of Philosophy (Without Any Gaps)" by Peter Adamson: https://historyofphilosophy.net/
3. "Complexity" from the Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/culture/podcasts#Complexity
4. "The New Books Network", edited by Marshall Poe https://newbooksnetwork.com/

#PhilosophizeThis #StephenWest #HistoryOfPhilosophy #PeterAdamson #ComplexityPodcast #SantaFeInstitute #NewBookNetwork #MarhsallPoe #Podcasts #Recommendations #Tootstorm

1/n

Dred's 2022 Podcast Recommendations

My top three, well, four (though the fourth is a few hundred) podcasts of the year.

Deets follow separately.

1. "Philosophize This" by Stephen West: https://www.philosophizethis.org/
2. "History of Philosophy (Without Any Gaps)" by Peter Adamson: https://historyofphilosophy.net/
3. "Complexity" from the Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/culture/podcasts#Complexity
4. "The New Books Network", edited by Marshall Poe https://newbooksnetwork.com/

#PhilosophizeThis #StephenWest #HistoryOfPhilosophy #PeterAdamson #ComplexityPodcast #SantaFeInstitute #NewBookNetwork #MarhsallPoe #Podcasts #Recommendations #Tootstorm

1/n

@rose this is a nice toot! Especially like to think of this picture and the #tootstorm #raspberrypi found themselves in the other day. 🤣🤣
Is there an emoji?

I re-posted a few things that had been taken down, this time with CW. #tootstorm

@CarlMuckenhoupt Freedom and power to me describe different elements of goal-attainment.

Power refers to the active and instrumental element. That is, power is the specific capacity to initiate change.

Freedom refers to constraints on power, a sort of negative space. Freedom is the ability to act without inhibition, but it isn't the action itself.

So ... closely related, yes. Negative spaces, yes. Synonyms: no, though clearly closely related.

4/end/

#Tootstorm #power #freedom #vetocracy #HighSpeedRail #CaliforniaHSR #JKGalbraith #CodignPower #CompensatoryPower #ConditionedPower #AnatomyOfPower #FrancisFukuyama

@mike Sorry everyone for yesterday's #tootstorm. I found a script for importing tweets and didn't realize that using it wasn't a good idea. It won't happen again.

@temporal Adding: if you want to argue that your manipulation is valid, then that manipulation must serve the original ends of the want, and not the want itself.

Put another way, any time you're reaching into a control system and directly manipulating the control mechanics themselves, you're violating the design constraints under which the control system was designed or evolved (no, "evolution" doesn't equal "intelligent design", though the results can be similar).

Asking someone to click when they see a blue light and then directly manipulating the retina, or optic nerve, or visual cortex to give the impression of "blue" violates the premise that a perception of blue is a ground truth of blue.

Dumping opiods on the brain, or sugar in the gut, or sexy actors all over a car, or in advertising for tobacco or alcohol, or relying on nicotne and ethanol to give sensations of pleasure without a ground-truth cause ... are manipulations.

(Not all of these are necessarily bad. But they remain manipulations.)

An anesthesiologist is serving the end. Your pusherman or the Sackler famly (but I repeat myself) not so much.

@vortex_egg @ArneBab

#Tootstorm

#tootstorm (for my own reference)

#UserGeneratedContent #SocialMedia #PlexodusWiki #SocialNetwork #DistributedC

@ajroach42 There's a host of people who've looked into media and questions concerning it. On the Media and its then-hosts, Brooke Gladstone (remaining) and Bob Garfield (departed) have had a decade-plus occasional series on business models for the newspaper industry (complete with jingle(s)).

News stales fast, local news is, well, hyperlocal. Neither are well-suited to profit-driven enterprise. The main benefit of owning a press has been the propaganda and influence value accrued, through advertising and political thoughtshifting. Direct sales and subscriptions not so much.

#AntiPropaganda #LocalNews #media #news #tootstorm

2/

@ajroach42 News, local especially, is objectively hard.

You might want to look into the background and history. Think of what your goals are. Invert the question. And look to when there was local news, and how and why that flourished, as well as what its drawbacks were.

1/

#tootstorm #news #media #LocalNews #AntiPropaganda

@baldur I need to give your essay a re-read, I'm missing a bunch of what you had to say. Should probaby give it a proper essay response myself. (Apologies here for the #tootstorm.)

But good stuff and again, thanks.

#technology #manifestation #capitalism

@temporal In practice I find that 4x6 index cards, on which I can fit about 500 characters (~80 words) is a generally useful size. It keeps items brief, is usually sufficient, but where not an idea can be explored across a series of cards.

All of which is pretty analagous to Mastodon toots and #tootstorm threads.

3/

@woozle @pixelpaperyarn I'd been using that hashtag (#tootstorm) mostly so I could find my own longer-chain bits myself. The term's not mine.

I have been known to ... abuse ... the form a tad. I think 60-80 toots is about my max ;-)