#quotedshares — Public Fediverse posts

@Mark Andrew 🇨🇭 I guess that, more often than not, the only new developments that are widely welcome are those that happen on Mastodon, that still don't make Mastodon feel different, and that don't introduce features to Mastodon that are (considered) bad on 𝕏.

This alone is the reason why many Mastodon admins hold on to older Mastodon versions for their dear lives: They want to boycott new Mastodon features which they don't like, but they don't have what it takes to soft-fork or even only hard-fork Mastodon and remove the new features.

Now, when it comes to developments in the Fediverse outside of Mastodon, they tend to be even more nerve-grating for Mastodon users because they often aren't in line with Mastodon and its culture at all. That is, many Mastodon users don't even notice that these features exist unless these features directly hit their timeline. But once they do, they're considered bad new developments even though they've actually been around for much longer than Mastodon itself.

For example, quote-posts and full-text search. Mastodon users tend to be staunchly against both because they're used to harass and dogpile minorities on 𝕏. If at all, they're only okay with these if they come with an opt-in, and/or if server admins can turn them off entirely.

If only they knew that Friendica has had both since May, 2010, five years and eight months longer than Mastodon has even existed. That Friendica has been search-indexing and able to quote-post any public Mastodon toot since Mastodon's very launch. I guess they'd demand the immediate destruction of Friendica or at least its complete and permanent defederation.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #FullTextSearch #Mastodon #Friendica

@Chao-c'

Also, ALT text translates with the rest of the post, which can be helpful for images which contain only foreign language text.

Hubzilla is the most incompatible ActivityPub software in Fediverse. You do just lot of things wrong, to put it mildly.

You still seem to think that Gargron invented ActivityPub and the Fediverse, that Mastodon is the one and only reference implementation of ActivityPub, and that everything that doesn't work exactly like Mastodon is broken.

Here are the facts:

Mastodon was launched in January, 2016.

Hubzilla was launched in March, 2015. Counting an earlier incarnation named Red, it was created in May, 2012, when Friendica's creator re-wrote his own fork of a Friendica fork of his own.

Mastodon implemented ActivityPub in September, 2017, when the spec wasn't finalised yet.

Hubzilla implemented ActivityPub in July, 2017. Two months before Mastodon. Hubzilla was the first software to ever implement ActivityPub.

Hubzilla implemented ActivityPub strictly by the book. It has always tried to stick as close to the official W3C ActivityPub spec as possible.

Mastodon, in stark contrast, has always been stretching the ActivityPub spec until it broke. Not only that, but it has always been adding stuff outside the spec. First it did so to take over certain features from StatusNet which was its original protocol. More recently, it did so with the very intention to break compatibility with the rest of the Fediverse and make everything that isn't Mastodon look broken. And people like you keep falling for it because they think they know for a fact that Mastodon is the ActivityPub reference implementation.

The whole Fediverse has to break the ActivityPub spec just to be able to federate with Mastodon.

yes, the Hubzilla author is writing Streams, with nomadic identity, but it also means, that he understands, that Hubzilla approach is kind of dead-end.

You know nothing. Whereas I can rattle down the whole history from Mistpark in 2010 to today.

Mike Macgirvin, creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte created his post-Hubzilla server applications because he kept advancing the Zot protocol. And he couldn't implement these advancements into Hubzilla because they bore the chance of breaking compatibility with what already existed.

(streams) is not a completely new development, nor is it a straight Hubzilla fork.

(streams) is a 2022 fork of Roadhouse.
Which was a 2022 fork of either the third Osada or Mistpark 2020 or Redmatrix 2020.
Which were 2020 forks of Zap (or each other, but at least one of them was forked from Zap).
Which was a 2018 fork of either Hubzilla itself or the first Osada, which was a 2018 fork of Hubzilla.

Osada and Zap were created to develop Zot6. In its early stages of concept, Mike expected Zot6 to be incompatible with everything else. Mind you, he didn't see that as something bad. Advancing Zot was necessary because the then-current version of Zot was less than optimal. And Mike's vision was a decentralised, nomadic network named the "Grid", entirely based on Zot. The Grid would have been vastly superior to the existing Fediverse in every way possible.

So the issue with his early draft of Zot6 was that it was quite incompatible with non-nomadic protocols. Nomadic Zot6 content could not be translated into non-nomadic protocols like the diaspora* protocol or ActivityPub.

Thus, developing Zot6 on Hubzilla was out of question. Zot6 would have broken too much on Hubzilla. Besides, Hubzilla was bad as a platform to experiment on due to its wealth of supported protocols and other features, all of which would have had to be made compatible with Zot6.

And this is the real reason why Mike created Osada and Zap. From how I see it, and how I remember what he talked about back in the day (I was there, yes), he first forked Osada from Hubzilla. Then he ripped everything out that he didn't need, including support for all protocols except for Zot itself, ActivityPub, RSS and Atom, including the CMS stuff like articles, planning cards, notes, wikis and webpages, etc. Then he modified what was left against his early version of Zot6.

Then he discovered that a cloned Osada channel couldn't properly send content via ActivityPub.

Then, shortly afterwards, he forked Osada into Zap. He removed nomadic identity from Osada which kept ActivityPub and ActivityPub support from Zap which stayed nomadic.

The idea was to have a nomadic, cloned channel on Zap as your main channel that would only connect to Hubzilla, Osada and Zap, and to have an additional, non-nomadic channel on Osada that would serve as a "gateway" between nomadic Zap and the non-nomadic ActivityPub Fediverse.

Of course, this was highly impractical. But by 2019, Mike found a way to make Zot6 compatible with non-nomadic protocols. So, in early 2019, Mike discontinued Osada and forked a new Osada from Zap which only differred from Zap by having ActivityPub support while still being nomadic. This enabled Mike to have one development platform for Zot6 in conjunction with non-nomadic protocols and another one on which ActivityPub did not stand in the way.

Later in 2019, both Osada and Zap got stable releases. At that point, Osada and Zap were identical in code. Both had ActivityPub support. It was included into their cores now and no longer an add-on like on Hubzilla. They only had two differences. One was the branding. The other one was that Osada servers had ActivityPub activated by default, and Zap servers had ActivityPub disabled by default. Keeping Osada around was unnecessary now, so ActivityPub was activated by default on Zap, and Osada was discontinued. Zot6 was so stable that it was soon backported to Hubzilla.

Mike wasn't done yet, though. He now wanted to develop Zot8. Again, he did not want to develop protocol changes on stable production software that people potentially daily-drove.

Thus, three new forks emerged in 2020: another Osada, Mistpark 2020 (a.k.a. Misty) and Redmatrix 2020 (named after the Red Matrix, the name that Hubzilla bore from late 2012 to early 2015 between being created as Red and being re-branded into Hubzilla). Mike used them to develop Zot8. They were identical in all but brand identity.

This was fully intentional on Mike's part to confuse the hell out of the brand fetishists that were growing more and more numerous in the Fediverse. His goal was for people to declare Osada or Misty or Redmatrix the best Fediverse software and superior to everything else, just for him to tell them that Osada, Misty and Redmatrix are absolutely identical. In fact, the three remained identical to Zap in features.

Zot8 never got stable because Mike kept advancing it further and further. In early 2022, he was at Zot11. But Zot11 was so incompatible with everything else, including previous Zot versions, that Mike declared it a new protocol of its own and renamed it Nomad. In order to test-drive it, he forked Osada or Misty or Redmatrix into Roadhouse. After all, there were people who were daring enough to daily-drive production channels on Osada, Misty and Redmatrix, albeit only few. Roadhouse was still identical in features to Zap, Osada, Misty and Redmatrix.

It was now possible to crossgrade between Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix and Roadhouse by simply rebasing the server code.

Later in 2022, he created a new fork of Roadhouse itself. The reason for this was not further protocol advancement. No, this time, it mostly had branding and licensing reasons.

First of all, he wanted to make that fork as easy for others to fork and adopt as possible. Everything he had developed so far was under the MIT license (he himself had relicensed Friendica under the AGPLv3 in 2011, but he didn't actually develop on Friendica; he developed on a fork named Free-Friendika that was still MIT-licensed and then backported the changes to the Friendica repository, and Red was a Free-Friendika fork). This new repository was released into the public domain. At first, the whole thing was never primarily intended to be installed on servers as it was, but rather to be forked as the base of something new.

At least the core and Mike's own add-ons were. What third-party add-ons from Hubzilla times were still there got to keep their maze of licenses. This was intentional on Mike's part, too. It would make it impossible for commercial players to scoop up the whole thing and relicense it into something non-free and commercial without breaking any licenses, or without pumping tons of money into their legal department to work around that maze of licenses.

Also, Mike removed any and all naming and branding from the software. He absolutely intentionally made it nameless. You've read that right. He did this for two reasons. One, whoever wanted to fork it would have to give the fork an individual name and an individual branding. Two, this was to mess with brand fanbois and brand fetishists even more: This thing had no brand to gush over to begin with.

Furthermore, Mike removed all nodeinfo code that he could possibly get away with removing. Again, this was intentional. One intention was to stop this software from automatically joining the "my Fediverse project is bigger than yours" and "my server is bigger than yours" rat races. He intentionally did everything he could to keep this software away from The Federation, Fediverse Observer, FediDB and the like.

The other intention was for the case of commercial players looking for free code to steal. If this software had really taken off and left its stats proving its popularity everywhere, some big commercial player would have been likely to try and steal this software, make it commercial and non-free and release it as their own original creation. So his intention was for them to not even be able to find it in this case. (This, by the way, was the reason why he relicensed Friendica under the AGPLv3, and why he hardly ever spoke about Free-Friendika: Now that Friendica was growing popular, he didn't want big commercial players to scoop up code of his under a license that they could change to non-free.)

This server application became the first and only one in the Fediverse with no fixed server type identifier, in fact, with none at all by default. It has one text field for the server name, just like Mastodon and Friendica and Hubzilla and the like. But it has an additional field where the server type, i.e. the identifier for the software, can be entered. If none is entered, it's derived from the server name. Mike used to have a server that identified as "Y" because, as he said, "Y is not X."

While the application itself is nameless (for it still is), the code repository did require a name of sorts. Mike named the repository "streams".

Now, the community needed something to call that nameless software when they spoke about it. So they unofficially established "(streams)", complete with parentheses that make sure that this is not actually the name of this software. Those who say, "Streams," with a capital S and no parentheses, and who use that term as if it's an official name, usually sincerely believe that this is the official name.

Mike himself uses "streams" without the parentheses because even he needs something to call his own software by. Before Forte was made, he preferred talking about the streams repository without directly mentioning the software. And he himself denied that (streams) is even a project. It's just a bunch of code that runs.

As far as I know, it was now possible to freely crossgrade between six different server applications because they were still identical in features. Only that Mike also had six server applications to take care of now.

So on December 31st, 2022, Mike discontinued Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix and Roadhouse. Admins who ran either of these on their servers were recommended to rebase their servers to the streams repository. In this case, by the way, the old branding was kept. I've seen a server that still had "zap" as its subdomain which indicated that it was set up as a Zap server, that had Misty branding, but that actually ran (streams).

From then on, Mike dedicated his time to maintaining and developing only the streams repository. He still occasionally helped Hubzilla out, though.

In 2023, the Mitra creator and developer silverpill approached Mike. The goal was to make Mitra nomadic. I guess earlier attempts using a blockchain and crypto technology didn't come to fruition, so it had to be Mike's way which had proven itself stable for more than a decade. However, Mitra was to remain based on ActivityPub.

It was in this exchange that Mike realised that ActivityPub could indeed be used for nomadic identity if a few things were added to it. One outcome was FEP-ef61 "Portable Objects" which introduced decentralised IDs (DIDs) that would not be bound to any one server domain.

Instead of creating a whole new server application to play with, Mike simply made a "nomadic" branch in the streams repository (even though the software was already nomadic) in which he implemented support for nomadic identity via ActivityPub. Support as in (streams) understanding it while internally still using Nomad for nomadicity.

In June, 2024, Mike considered the "nomadic" branch reliable enough and merged it into the "dev" branch.

In July, 2024, Mike merged the "dev" branch into the "release" branch which caused DIDs as per FEP-ef61 to be rolled out to existing production servers. On accounts created on this new version, channels would have a DID internally. On accounts greated on any previous version, even new channels would keep the old ID system for the time being. This way, existing accounts and channels weren't messed with.

However, what had worked under supervised and restricted lab conditions completely blew up under real-life conditions. Again, I was there on (streams) with a pre-DID account and two channels on it. I still have them. (streams) channels wouldn't federate with anything anymore. It had become impossible to send anything anywhere. What Mike was facing was nothing short of an enigma because not even he knew what was going in.

So he started tinkering. In mid-August, Mike forked the streams repository into something named and branded Forte. He did so so he could rip the Nomad protocol out while still keeping the entire functionality. He had to get rid of Nomad because he had discovered that (streams) got confused juggling all the many IDs it had to deal with, so he had to weed out the Nomad and Zot6 IDs to make things easier. But he couldn't possibly have done that on (streams) proper.

This way, Mike created the very first Fediverse server software that uses ActivityPub for full nomadicity, including cloning.

By the end of August, things got back to normal. But Mike, having spent every free minute in the last few weeks to get (streams) back into working condition, was burned out. He sent an open message around in which he declared that he would completely retire from Fediverse development, and both the streams repository and Forte were up for grabs.

But nobody was found who could take over either. (streams) and Forte probably had way fewer than 100 users combined. Those few who would have been able to maintain either didn't have time. One did have time and was willing to do so, but he didn't know how to code. He eventually did start teaching himself, and he occasionally contributes merge requests, but there was no way he could take over as the only dev for either, much less both. So Mike had to go on, whether he wanted or not, albeit at a somewhat slower pace.

This is why Mike is still developing (streams) and Forte to this day.

By the way: The reason why Mike "abandoned" his old software was because he needed to invest all his time into protocol development and advancement. Mike isn't the one to constantly maintain stable server software unless he absolutely has to.

In 2011, he handed Friendica over to two new developers so that he had time to create the Zot protocol.

In 2015 already, he handed Hubzilla over to two new developers so that he had time to explore the advancement of the Zot protocol. He still contributed to Hubzilla's development.

In 2019, he wanted to hand Osada and Zap over to the community, now that they were stable, so he had time to develop Zot8. But the Osada/Zap community was so tiny that he couldn't get a new dedicated developer team together.

In 2024, he wanted to hand (streams) and Forte over to the community because fixing (streams)' huge identity bug, which led to Forte's creation, had burnt him out. He wanted to quit. But, again, he couldn't because (streams) didn't have a single user who had both the time and the knowledge to take over as the new main dev.

Consider this: Gargron was a young man when he made Mastodon. I think he was still at university. Mike Macgirvin made Friendica, he had some three decades of professional work in IT and software under his belly. Gargron was at the beginning of his career. Mike had quit and moved from the USA to the western Australian outback where he has been living as a farmer ever since. He might actually be older than Gargron's parents.

while nomadic identitity would be cool thing, currently it does not exist

Take off your Mastodon glasses and look at the Fediverse and what it actually is like.

Nomadic identity does exist. Not as a vague idea, not as a concept on paper, but as a stable, production-grade feature that has been used to its full extent for well over a decade now. Just because Mastodon doesn't have it, doesn't mean the Fediverse doesn't have it. And just because Mastodon doesn't recognise it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Fediverse has loads of features which Mastodon users want "the Fediverse" to have. It has features which many Mastodon users have never wanted "the Fediverse" to have such as quote-posts, introduced by Mike Macgirvin on Mistpark in 2010. It even has features that are completely and utterly unimaginable for Mastodon users, and it has had even these since as early as 2010, 2012 or 2015.

Nomadic identity was invented by Mike Macgirvin in 2011 with the Zot protocol.

It was first implemented by him in mid-2012 when he rewrote Red against Zot. This means that Hubzilla itself has been offering full-blown nomadic identity since 2012, almost four years longer than Mastodon has existed.

This very Hubzilla channel that I'm commenting from right here, right now, is actually nomadic. It is cloned across two servers: hub.netzgemeinde.eu and hub.hubzilla.de. And it has been since before Elon Musk announced to take over Twitter in early 2022. When I sent you this comment, it was automatically sync'd over to hub.hubzilla.de. When you sent the comment that I'm replying to, it was automatically sync'd over to hub.hubzilla.de. The clone has actually been of great help at least once.

Unfortunately, non-nomadic software identifies cloned channels as fully separate accounts with fully separate identities. But rest assured: @Jupiter Rowland on hub.hubzilla.de is my clone. It's the live, hot, real-time, bidirectional backup of the main instance of my channel, @Jupiter Rowland on hub.netzgemeinde.eu that you're following now. They're both one and the same channel with one and the same identity, [email protected], even though Mastodon is unable to see it as such. Go check both. You'll see they've got all the same content in them, including comments from others. Including your comment. How else can [email protected] possibly have one of your comments under a post if you've only sent that comment to [email protected] if it weren't for nomadic identity?

Even nomadic identity via ActivityPub is available as a stable, production-grade feature in stable, production-grade software right now as we speak. Forte was the first to be fully nomadic via nothing but ActivityPub, as of mid-August, 2024. Tootik, based on Gemini instead of the World Wide Web, is fully nomadic at server level, too. Mitra is fully nomadic by means of the Minimitra client.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonCentricity #MastodonNormativity #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Zot8 #Nomad #Friendica #Red #RedMatrix #Hubzilla #Osada #Zap #Mistpark #Mistpark2020 #Misty #Redmatrix2020 #Roadhouse #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Tootik #Mitra #Minimitra #NomadicIdentity

@TeflonTrout :bc: he/him @Sharp Leaves Still, forcing Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's unwritten rules upon literally everyone in the Fediverse is bad.

Maybe you haven't heard about this yet, but: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. It has never been only Mastodon. It didn't even start with Mastodon. And it doesn't entirely work like Mastodon either.

For starters, this means that just because you see it on Mastodon, it didn't necessarily originate on Mastodon.

There are places in the Fediverse that are vastly older than Mastodon, and that are very different from Mastodon. Thus, they have their own culture, based on their own technology and their own features and where their users came from, and largely without any influences from Mastodon.

The oldest still existing server software in the Fediverse is not Mastodon from 2016. It's Friendica (https://friendi.ca, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendica, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Friendica). Friendica is essentially a mixture of a Facebook alternative and fully-featured long-form blogging. No Twitter or Mastodon influence anywhere. And Friendica first came out in May, 2010, five years and eight months before Mastodon.

Friendica did not intrude into the Mastodon Fediverse that was created by Eugen Rochko as a Mastodon-only network. Mastodon was born into an already existing Fediverse that consisted of at least Friendica, Hubzilla (https://hubzilla.org, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubzilla, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla) and GNU social (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_social; now defunct).

Here's how Friendica differs from Mastodon in ways that may disturb Mastodon hardliners:

• Mastodon is hard-coded to 500 characters. This character limit is deeply engrained into Mastodon's culture.
  Friendica doesn't have an arbitrary character limit; it's limited by the maximum size of the database field for the post text. Currently, this is 16,777,215 characters. Thus, Friendica doesn't have keeping messages short in its culture, it never has, and it never will.
• Mastodon users tend to be eager to block anyone who doesn't cut long posts into pieces of no more than 500 characters each.
  I know at least one Friendica veteran who blocks everyone upon first strike who does cut long posts into annoying strings of tiny chunks.
• Mastodon introduced a CW field in 2017.
  Friendica has had the exact same field as a summary/abstract field since its own beginning in 2010. That, and Friendica has always had a much more efficient way of handling CWs, one that Mastodon itself adopted with version 4.0 in October, 2022. Thus, by its technology and culture, Friendica users despise misusing their abstract field to force the same CW upon everyone out there with a hot, flaming passion.
  So if you see someone "misusing" the CW field for "a subject or a summary or whatever that is," that might not be a clueless Mastodon user. Instead, it might be a Friendica user who has been around for a dozen years longer than you, who is used to living by Friendica's culture, and who knows tons more about the Fediverse than you do.
• Friendica users are much less likely to add alt-texts to their images. That's for two reasons.
  One, Friendica's culture is not an idealised version of pre-Musk, very-left-wing Twitter's culture. It does not include attacking and punishing everyone who doesn't add 100% hand-written, 100% accurate, sufficiently detailed alt-texts to their images.
  Two, Friendica handles images drastically differently from Mastodon. Mastodon always has a nifty little entry field for alt-texts whenever you attach an image. On Friendica, images are embedded into posts rather than attached to them, like in a blog post. And oftentimes, you literally have to program the alt-text into the raw image embedding markup code.
• On Mastodon, it's considered intrusive and reply-guying to reply to someone who hasn't mentioned you, and to whom you aren't mutually connected. You couldn't possibly have received the toot that you're replying to otherwise.
  On Friendica, that's perfectly normal. Friendica doesn't show you single messages by default. It always shows you the entire conversation thread, all the way up to the start post, with all branches. Thus, neither Friendica's technology nor Friendica's culture rules out replying to any comment in the thread.
• Mastodon has only just introduced Twitter-style quote-posts a few months ago. With a safety feature that only works on Mastodon and GoToSocial for fear of that feature being used for harassment and dogpiling just like on Twitter. And because literally everyone on Mastodon comes from Twitter, it's actually being used for harassment and dogpiling.
  Friendica has had that very same feature since its inception in 2010, over a decade and a half longer. It has never not had this feature. It has always been able to quote-post any public message in the Fediverse. But since Friendica is not entirely populated by former Twitter users, it hasn't been used for harassment or dogpiling even once. It's only used to forward content. For most of the time, it literally was the only available way to forward a message.
• Mastodon users tend to be very protective and defensive about their allegedly Mastodon-only Fediverse.
  Friendica users are used to being able to connect with everything that moves and then some. It's one of Friendica's key features that it speaks a whole lot of protocols, not just ActivityPub.
  Whereas Mastodon users see Mastodon as a "decentralised walled garden", Friendica users see Friendica as the gateway to the whole federated social Web plus some places that aren't, strictly speaking, federated.
• Mastodon users will staunchly insist that "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" essentially mean the same because they believe they do. They will attack anyone who claims otherwise.
  Friendica users will staunchly insist that there's a huge difference between "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" because they actually know there is one. They will lecture anyone who claims otherwise.

Of course, from a Mastodon point of view, it's both tempting and fully justified to tell the Friendica users that this is the Mastodon Fediverse, and that they will have to adapt the Mastodon culture and abolish their own culture or be thrown out. But for one, Mastodon's culture doesn't fit Friendica's technology.

Besides, that'd literally be like European settlers holding Native Americans at gunpoint and forcing them to give up their own culture, adopt European culture and convert to Catholic Christianity or else. The only difference is that European settlers, unlike the Mastodon users, did not think that they were there first, and that everyone else is an intruder.

I mean, sure, go ahead and attack anyone who doesn't strictly live by Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's rules if you think you have to. But prepare for a whole lot of defence and even counter-attacks from Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, Sharkey, GoToSocial, Hollo, snac2, Mitra, Socialhome, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte and the rest of the non-Mastodon Fediverse.

CC: @Jan Wildeboer

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@Pawlicker About "reply gating": This, or something similar, has been a standard feature at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte from the get-go, i.e. from their respective creation on. Hubzilla has had it since 2012. All three rely heavily on permissions for anything and everything. They can make themselves and each other hide the reply button. When someone wants to comment from Mastodon or something else that doesn't understand these permissions, these three simply reject unpermitted comments before they even reach the inbox.

On Hubzilla, the channel-wide permission to comment also includes a permission to like or dislike something. I can generally allow

• only myself
• only certain contacts
• only my contacts
• only my contacts plus those with an unapproved contact request
• anyone on the same Hubzilla hub as me
• anyone on Hubzilla (strangely, this does exclude (streams) channels)
• anyone in the Fediverse
• anyone anywhere on the Web, even without a Fediverse account

to comment on my posts.

In addition, I can turn comments on and off for specific posts. Mind you, if it's a reply, it isn't a post, it's a comment, and I've got no control over it.

On (streams) and Forte, the channel-wide permission to comment is uncoupled from the permission to like or dislike. The channel-wide options are

• only myself plus certain contacts
• only my contacts
• anyone in the Fediverse
• anyone anywhere on the Web, even without a Fediverse account

On top of that, I can generally allow comments only for a certain number of days.

Again, I can turn comments on and off for specific posts. But I can also only allow my contacts to comment on specific posts, and I can define until when comments are allowed on specific posts.

In all three cases, I can even choose to preview technically unpermitted comments and then decide whether I allow or reject them, one by one.

In other words, where I am (I'm commenting from Hubzilla), this not only has been available for longer than Mastodon has even existed, but it's deeply engrained into the culture.

About "quote gating": Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte have all always (in Friendica's case, since 2010) had both actual quotes like on bulletin-board forums (remember the 2000s when forums were all the rage?) and Twitter-quote-tweet-style quote-posts (which literally were the only way for them to share content before they adopted Twitter-retweet-style forwarding).

The former obviously only works in comments. Whether or not it's allowed is defined by whether or not comments are allowed.

The latter doesn't have any permission setting, not even on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte with the most advanced permissions systems in the whole Fediverse. That's because their inventor says that it's technologically impossible to keep people from forwarding or sharing your content in separate posts.

If you disallow actual quote-posts, people can still copy-paste the content of your post into a new post. Unlike when you're actually being quote-posted, you won't even notice unless they mention you. Mind you, while an estimated 60% of all Mastodon users are on iPhones, and another estimated 39% are on Android phones, 100% of all Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte users are on desktop or laptop computers where copy-paste is easy-peasy. It's pretty much impossible to disallow copy-paste, and even if it was, people would resort to screenshots.

You don't want people to quote-post your stuff? Then don't make it public. Once it's public, it's out there, and anyone can do with it whatever they please.

Nobody really misses an actual permission for quote-posts. That's also because Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte aren't primarily a home for Twitter refugees. In fact, neither of them can even understand the ruckus about quote-posts on Mastodon, and neither can Friendica users. Hardly any of them have been on Twitter at any point in the 2020s. There's no influence of Twitter culture anywhere to be found.

The typical path into Hubzilla is not Twitter > Musk buys Twitter > Mastodon > Hubzilla. Not even Twitter > Musk buys Twitter > Mastodon > Friendica > Hubzilla. It's Facebook > diaspora* > Friendica > Hubzilla. Or Facebook > Google+ > diaspora* > Friendica > Hubzilla. The typical path into (streams) is the same, but one step further beyond Hubzilla. The typical path into Forte is the same as into (streams), but another step further beyond (streams).

About the iPhone: Whether or not the iPhone is a status symbol depends on where you are.

In the USA, the iPhone is the Levi's jeans of phones. It's the Ford F-150 of phones. The allegedly all-American American phone. Most importantly, it's what everyone has.

Over here in Germany, the iPhone is the higher-class Mercedes-Benz of phones. The iPhone 15 Pro is the 2026 Mercedes-Benz-AMG E 53 of phones. The iPhone 15 Pro Max is the 2026 Mercedes-Benz-AMG S 63 E Performance of phones, slammed suspensions, standing on polished 22" Lexani wheels, muffler cut-outs always open. In American terms, it's the 2026 Cadillac Escalade-V of phones, gold-foiled, with air-ride, standing on gold-plated 26" Bellagio spinnaz. The phone made for peacocking in rap music video clips. It's the Rolex of phones. For women, it's the genuine Prada or Fendi or Louis Vuitton handbag of phones.

Well, and then there's the iPhone 4S with the cracked screen. It's the 1995 Mercedes-Benz E-Class of phones. Old, worn out, four-banger engine, often rusty as hell, may have been stolen at some point, but it's cheap. And most importantly, it's still a Benz, and it's a real Benz as opposed to "Baby Benz" C-Class and smaller. The Benz for those who need a Benz to show their folks how much of a winner they are, but who can't really afford one.

Over here, the Samsung Galaxy S is the VW Golf of phones. The Americans' Ford F-150 of phones. It's what everyone has. It's the no-brainer that you buy when you don't know what to buy, so you buy what everyone buys. Still, it's expensive for what it does. But all the other brands are akin to "cheap imports" from, what, France or Italy or Japan or Korea or Romania.

The choice of the hardcore nerds in the homeland of Chaos Computer Club and Chaos Communication Congress is never something that can only run stock Android. It's an iPhone even less. They rather buy a Google Pixel, and the first thing they do is root it immediately and install GrapheneOS. Or if they refuse to buy something from Google and/or run a Google OS (de-Googled or not), they acquire a Sony Experia, root it and install SailfishOS. Or they go straight for a Fairphone or even the new Jolla Phone or something like that. I'm pretty sure many want a true successor to the Nokia N900.

If Google locks Android down, these nerds won't flock to Apple. Some may switch to SailfishOS which, on officially supported phones, has the Aliendalvik compatibility layer for Android apps, but only with F-Droid and neither with the Google Play Store proper nor with Micro-G. Many more will go entirely elsewhere like PostmarketOS or PureOS, also seeing as SailfishOS is payware that's half proprietary and closed-source. Or they'll forgo mobile phones entirely or keep old phones alive for as long as they can.

About iOS apps: I guess the notion that the Fediverse equals Mastodon, something that the majorty of Mastodon users believe, is particularly wide-spread among iPhone users. And if it isn't only Mastodon, it doesn't extend beyond Mastodon, Pixelfed and PeerTube. Excluding Pixelfed and PeerTube, if Mastodon can't do it, the Fediverse as a whole can't. I mean, on top of the fact that apps made for Mastodon generally only support Mastodon features because the Mastodon Client API only supports Mastodon features, and the Mastodon Client API is all that these apps understand.

It's particularly bad for Friendica users. If they're on Android, they may opt for a Mastodon app. There are several Android apps for Mastodon that have been reported to work with Friendica. Or they may want to try one of the dedicated Friendica apps which are at various levels of unfinished. Or they may choose the middle-ground and use Fedilab.

But if they're on an iPhone, they'll discover that literally not even a single Mastodon iOS app works with Friendica. There is no Fedilab. And the iOS version of RaccoonForFriendica requires Test Flight, and it's probably even more incomplete than the Android version.

In general, iPhone apps are rarely developed for the same reasons as Android apps. Most Android Fediverse apps are open-source and under a free license, and they're also or exclusively available on F-Droid. They're developed by FLOSS enthusiasts/idealists. However, these people don't develop for iOS. That's because the Apple App Store is inherently hostile towards free software, and it's completely incompatible with all versions of the GNU General Public License.

Also, as you've already pointed out, you absolutely need a Mac to develop iOS apps. But if someone releases FLOSS apps on F-Droid, you can bet they're running GNU/Linux at home (more often Arch or a derivative than you may think), and they won't touch any corporate-made, closed-source OS with a 10-foot barge pole. They may even steer clear of anything where Novell, Red Hat or Canonical is involved.

With hobbyist FLOSS enthusiasts out of the way of developing iPhone apps, this is only ever done by those who do it for money. Or fame and social status (same reason why they always have a fairly new iPhone). Or both. But then they discovered that the Fediverse, to them at least, is a hive of radical leftist tech nerds whom you can't impress with expensive bling-bling from big American gigacorps. They failed to gather the umpteen thousand followers they wanted. So they left for greener pastures: Bluesky. Or they even went back to their hundreds of thousands of followers on 𝕏. Doing so, they also abandoned their iPhone app development.

By the way, none of this affects Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. For starters, just like Friendica, all four can be installed as Progressive Web Apps. However, at least in the case of these three, there is no alternative to the Web interface whatsoever. There's an old Android app for Hubzilla named Nomad, but it's only available on F-Droid, it hasn't been worked on since December, 2019, it only runs on older Android versions and Aliendalvik, and it's only a wrapper for the Web interface anyway. For (streams) and Forte, there's zilch.

There has been some talk about developing a native mobile Hubzilla app. It's kind of difficult, though. Generally, Hubzilla users use Hubzilla on desktop OS's. They can't imagine people daily-driving phones as their main or only end-user devices, so they think that a Hubzilla app only needs the features one would need when out and about because everyone will go back to their desktop or laptop computers anyway when they're back home.

In reality, many users of the Hubzilla app will only use that app. They won't use Hubzilla's Web interface in a browser. They won't use it on a desktop or laptop computer either, usually because they simply don't have one. They'll resort to that app for everything. In fact, they'll perceive Hubzilla as a phone app rather than a Fediverse server application. This means that a Hubzilla mobile app will inevitably have to cover all of Hubzilla's features except those that really don't make sense in a phone app (e.g. the PDL editor). But a fully-featured Hubzilla app would be so complex, it'd make infamous K-9 Mail pale in comparison.

Licensing is the least problem here. Hubzilla and Forte are released under the MIT license, (streams) was released into the public domain. So I guess putting an app for either of them under the MIT license would be an option, one that's fairly compatible with the Apple App Store even. It's just that this app would be bound to be an absolute monster.

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@Brett Coulstock You should care if you think that Gargron has invented the Fediverse as a pure Mastodon network. If you think that e.g. Friendica and Hubzilla came into the Mastodon Fediverse after the fact. If you use this thinking as a justification to force Mastodon's rules and Mastodon's culture upon Friendica and Hubzilla users because you take them for intruders in a place where they don't rightfully belong.

Because Friendica and Hubzilla did not intrude into Mastodon's Fediverse. They were in the Fediverse before Mastodon.

You should care if you think that posting more than 500 characters is bad behaviour as it goes against "the Fediverse culture".

Because that "Fediverse culture" is only Mastodon's culture. And the culture on Friendica and Hubzilla, which pre-dates Mastodon itself by years, knows no character limits.

You should care if you think that Gargron is evil for introducing quote-posts to the Fediverse.

Because it was actually Mike Macgirvin, creator of Friendica and Hubzilla, who did that. In 2010. 16 years before now. Almost 6 years before Mastodon was even made.

And because just about everything that isn't Mastodon could quote-post Mastodon toots before Mastodon users even considered quote-posts evil.

You should care if you wish for "the Fediverse" to introduce certain new features. Like reply control. Or better list handlings. Or groups. Or even only more characters.

Because "the Fediverse" does have all these features. Just Mastodon doesn't have them. But Mastodon is not the Fediverse.

You should care if you don't want "the Fediverse" to ever introduce certain features. Like a higher default character limit. Or text formatting.

Because the Fediverse already has such features. As in, it can use these features in posts which it then sends to Mastodon. And there's nothing, absolutely nothing that Mastodon and its users can do against it. Except for muting and blocking.

You should care if you find it easier to use "Mastodon" and "Fediverse" synonymously, and all this "nitpicking" about when it's "Mastodon" and when it's "Fediverse" enrages you.

Because it enrages users in the non-Mastodon Fediverse when people say right into their faces that they toot. And/or that they're on Mastodon and therefore bound to the exact same rules and the exact same culture as everyone else on Mastodon. And they will so very much not let you have your way.

All these are things which, unfortunately, those who have never experienced anything else in the Fediverse than Mastodon will hardly ever understand.

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@craftxbox No, it's about more than every other Mastodon user thinking that the Fediverse equals Mastodon.

Most of the rest still think (or they think they know):

• The Fediverse started with Mastodon. Gargron has invented the Fediverse.
• Everything that isn't Mastodon is either designed as a Mastodon add-on (Pixelfed, PeerTube etc.), or if it clearly isn't that, it's an intruder into the Mastodon Fediverse.
• If Mastodon doesn't have a feature, the Fediverse doesn't have that feature. This also means that if they succeed at keeping Mastodon from introducing a feature that they don't want, the whole Fediverse will never have it.

There are Mastodon users who wish for "the Fediverse" (they mean Mastodon because that's all they know) to introduce some feature, blissfully unaware that this feature is all over the Fediverse outside of Mastodon.

There are Mastodon users who "know for a fact" that Mastodon has just introduced quote-posts to the Fediverse, including an opt-out that works Fediverse-wide. They're blissfully unaware that a) Friendica and Hubzilla have been able to quote-post literally every single last public Mastodon toot since Mastodon's launch in 2016, and b) they both still are, opt-out or not.

And then there are those who spend two years or more thinking the entire Fediverse is a 500-character microblogging service, and who shit brix in sheer terror and hammer on the block button in sheer panic whenever a "toot" with more than 500 characters shows up in their timeline.

And, of course, those who try hard to force Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's rules, both of which are geared towards Mastodon and Mastodon only, upon users of server applications that are very very much not Mastodon. Because they think that Mastodon culture = Fediverse culture. And who, at the same time, fight everyone who suggests they do something that isn't inline with their perception of Mastodon's culture and rules.

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@Justin Crozer @Stefan Bohacek @Lentävä Kalakukko @Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Whenever I see Mastodon users talk about "culture" in a Fediverse context, I have to wonder: What exactly do they refer to when they talk about "culture"?

Is it Fediverse culture? As in, overarching, software-independent Fediverse culture?

As in, taking into consideration that Fediverse server applications that aren't Mastodon, e.g. Misskey or Sharkey or Friendica or Hubzilla, have different cultures than Mastodon?

Recognising a post or a comment from one of these applications, acknowledging that it comes from a place with a different history, a different set of features and thus a different culture than Mastodon and refraining from enforcing Mastodon's unwritten rules against it?

Or does "culture" only refer to Mastodon's culture? Does it reject or completely disregard all cultures in the Fediverse that aren't Mastodon's and demand the whole Fediverse adopt Mastodon's culture and only Mastodon's culture?

Do these "bad eggs" include users who post more than 500 characters at once (which, by the way, is perfectly normal everywhere outside of Mastodon)?

Do these "bad eggs" include users who reply to people who haven't mentioned them first, and whom they aren't mutually following either (which, by the way, is perfectly normal in large parts of the non-Mastodon Fediverse, too)?

Do these "bad eggs" include users who quote-post Mastodon toots that must not be quote-posted (because they've had quote-posts for much longer than Mastodon, but without a no-quote flag so they can't see Mastodon's no-quote flag)?

Do these "bad eggs" incllude users who "misuse" Mastodon's CW field for summaries (because they have literally had the exact same text field as a summary field for seven years longer than Mastodon has had it as a CW field, and because having a summary field makes a whole lot of sense if your character limit is not 500, but over 16.7 million)?

Do these "bad eggs" include users who use more than four hashtags in one post (because, unlike Mastodon, the places where they are have filtering as well as automatically having messages hidden behind CW buttons deeply engrained into their cultures, but this requires the appropriate keywords to be present)?

If so, then this explains why only Mastodon users can enjoy significant reach on Mastodon: Everyone else is mass-blocked for misbehaving by Mastodon's standards.

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@⚝ Mirko ⚝

die Adminbubble dort ist sehr viel ausgeglichener und lässt vor allem andere Plattformen in Ruhe.

Mindestens die Hälfte von denen weiß doch gar nicht, daß es auch noch andere Fediverse-Serveranwendungen gibt. Für die ist das Fediverse gleich Mastodon. Und von denen, die das wissen, wissen die allermeisten nicht, was die anderen Anwendungen können.

Warum hat die "Mastodon-Community" beispielsweise nie gefordert, Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, die Forkeys, Friendica, Hubzilla usw. zu deföderieren, weil die alle in der Lage sind, jeden öffentlichen Mastodon-Tröt widerstandslos zu quote-posten? Weil auf Mastodon praktisch niemand weiß, daß die dazu in der Lage sind. Wüßten die das, hätten sie längst die Messer gewetzt und die totale Deföderation gefordert.

Außerdem wird man auf diesen Serveranwendungen immer wieder von Mastodon-Nutzern diskriminiert oder gar attackiert. Man soll sich gefälligst an die "Fediverse-Kultur", will sagen, Mastodon-Kultur halten (was impliziert, daß man die eigene Kultur über Bord werfen soll). Man soll niemals mehr als 500 Zeichen posten. Man soll "alle notwendigen" CWs ins CW-Feld eintragen (also Friendicas Abstrakt-Feld bzw. Hubzillas Zusammenfassungsfeld) und es gar keinen Fall für irgendetwas anderes benutzen. Und so weiter.

Derweil beharren praktisch alle Mastodon-Nutzer darauf, daß das nie passiert. Weil sie nie mitbekommen, daß das passiert. Ihnen selbst passiert es ja nicht, weil sie sich als Mastodon-Nutzer eh an die Mastodon-Kultur halten, eh nicht mehr als 500 Zeichen haben, das CW-Feld nur als CW-Feld kennen usw. Und wenn es ihnen nicht passiert, dann sind sie der felsenfesten Überzeugung, daß es gar nicht passiert.

Das Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse widersetzt sich ständig Mastodons Kultur und bricht ständig Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln. Die allermeisten Mastodon-Nutzer wissen aber nicht, daß das passiert, ganz einfach, weil sie davon nichts mitbekommen. Dasselbe gilt auch für die allermeisten Mastodon-Admins.

Mastodon stellt im Fediverse irgendwo zwischen 60 und 70% der monatlich aktiven Nutzer. Aus irgendwelchen Gründen aber kommen gefühlt über 98% des Post-Aufkommens auf Mastodon von Mastodon selbst. Du kannst 4 Jahre auf Mastodon sein, 1000 Konten folgen und dich trotzdem in einer reinen Vanilla-Mastodon-Blase bewegen und erst nach diesen 4 Jahren deinen allerersten Beitrag mit über 500 Zeichen zu Gesicht bekommen. Wenn überhaupt.

Mastodon-Admins sind gegenüber dem Rest des Fediverse nicht deshalb so entspannt, weil das, was Pleroma, Misskey, Friendica usw. nach Mastodon schicken, für sie okay ist. Sondern, weil sie gar nicht wissen, was Pleroma, Misskey, Friendica usw. nach Mastodon schicken und viele von denen nie auch nur irgendwas von diesen anderen Anwendungen gehört haben. Sonst wären tausende von denen an vorderster Front mit dabei, wenn es darum geht, alles, was nicht Mastodon ist, auf Mastodon zu blockieren, das kannst du mir mal glauben.

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@Jasper Burns

Groups, part 2: Starting a thread

Okay, here comes the twist. Here is where the group magic happens.

If you want to start a new thread in that group, you have to be a member of the group account. Connected to the group account. In Mastospeak, mutually follow the group account.

Then, if you send a new post that mentions the group account, and it is not a reply to another post, then the group account will automatically quote your post and send the quote-post with your post in it to all its connections (followers).

You know quotes? Quote-posts? Like, quote-tweets? What half of Mastodon is so afraid of because it's used on Twitter only to harass and dogpile people? That's what I'm talking about. Friendica has had these quote-posts for almost 16 years, and never have they been used for harassment and dogpiling, for never has anyone used Friendica as a drop-in replacement for Twitter. Friendica calls them "shares". And Friendica has used these quote-posts in groups for almost 16 years.

That is, within Friendica (and its descendants), one thing is a wee bit different: If you're on Friendica or Hubzilla or (streams) or Forte, you have to send a DM with a special mention (!group instead of @group on Friendica, @!group on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte) to the group account for this to happen. This automatically activates what's "mentioned only" on Mastodon and makes your post a DM.

But from Mastodon accounts and the like, it accepts public posts with @group mentions. That's because Mastodon & Co. don't know !group and @!group mentions.

(2/9)

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@0%/100% TAX ✅ ✅

(but not quote it since quoting is a Mastodon "neologism"?)

What Mastodon refers to as "quoting", and what 𝕏 calls "quote-tweets", has been available on Friendica (which @Grow Fediverse is on, by the way) since its inception a bit over 15 years ago, only that Friendica calls it "quoted sharing".

What Friendica calls "quoting" is what I've done up there at the top of this comment (I'm on Hubzilla, created by Friendica's creator in 2015 from a fork of a fork of Friendica).

Both features have been available in the Fediverse since five and a half years before Mastodon was launched.

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@Maxi 11x 💉

Das Fediverse wird immer mehr zu Facebook und ich hab da wenig Lust drauf.

Das Fediverse war Facebook, bevor es von Millionen von ahnungslosen Mastodon-Newbies zu Twitter gemacht wurde.

Mehr als die Hälfte der Mastodon-Nutzer glaubt, das Fediverse sei nur Mastodon. Der weit überwiegende Teil derer, die eines Besseren belehrt wurden, glauben immer noch, das Fediverse sei

• (frühestens) 2016
• von Eugen Rochko
• als reine Microblogging-Plattform und Twitter-Klon
• mit einem Zeichenlimit von 500 Zeichen

erfunden worden. Und alles, was davon abweicht und nicht "offensichtlich (wie PeerTube & Co.) als Extra an Mastodon drangeklebt" worden ist, wird aufgefaßt als lästige Eindringlinge im Mastodon-Fediverse, die sich nicht an die Regeln des Mastodon-Fediverse halten und sich auch nicht an die Kultur des Mastodon-Fediverse anpassen.

Um das mal zurechtzurücken:

Im Januar 2016 ging Mastodon an den Start.

Im Juli 2010, fünfeinhalb Jahre vor Mastodon, startete Friendica (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendica, https://friendi.ca) als Facebook-Alternative.

• Ohne Zeichenbegrenzung (tatsächlich 16.777.215 Zeichen).
• Mit allem, was eine gute Bloggingplattform an Textformatierung hergibt.
• Mit Inhaltswarnungen, die jeder für sich selbst automatisch generieren lassen kann mittels einer Liste von Schlüsselwörtern.
• Mit Titeln und Zusammenfassungen, und die Zusammenfassungen waren schon immer in dem Datenfeld, das Mastodon seit 2017 für CWs verwendet.
• Mit der Fähigkeit, andere Posts als Komplettzitate zu teilen. Und nicht ein einziges Mal ist das mißbräuchlich verwendet worden.

Jetzt regen sich Mastodon-Nutzer darüber auf, daß Friendica auf so infame und rücksichtslose Art und Weise ins Mastodon-Fediverse eingedrungen ist und seine Nutzer

• sich nicht ans 500-Zeichen-Limit halten
• alle mit ihren Textformatierungen nerven
• keine CWs schreiben
• dafür das CW-Feld mißbrauchen mit "Titeln oder was weiß ich, was das ist"

Daß Friendica schon seit über 15 Jahren quote-posten kann, weiß zum Glück beinahe niemand auf Mastodon.

Fakt ist aber: Friendica gab es nicht nur schon fünfeinhalb Jahre, als Mastodon startete, sondern es war auch schon fünfeinhalb Jahre im Fediverse, als Mastodon startete. Und es hatte auch schon gut fünf Jahre lang seine eigene Kultur, als Mastodon startete.

In dem Augenblick, wo Mastodon startete, verband es sich sofort mit StatusNet (von 2008, wofür Mastodon ursprünglich nur eine Alternativoberfläche war; heute GNU social, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Social, https://gnusocial.rocks/), Friendica und Hubzilla (von 2015, basiert auf einem Fork eines Forks von Friendica von 2012; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubzilla, https://hubzilla.org). Und nicht umgekehrt.

Wir waren zuerst hier. Findet euch damit ab.

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@~n Ich dachte, Mastodon führt die für Drukos nötige Technologie erst jetzt gerade ein? Die es übrigens woanders im Fediverse schon bis zu gut 15 Jahren gibt?

(Druko = Quote-Post, wo das Original oben und der Kommentar drunter steht)

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@silverpill @Julian Fietkau In the background, yes.

At first, I expected this implementation to be exactly like Misskey and require this line in plain sight in the content so that the quoted post is rendered dynamically. Which has never been the case in Mike's software family.

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@Julian Fietkau

I don't know if translating the absence of a FEP-044f quote policy as “not quotable” was the right decision. Maybe it wasn't.

If you use server software that has quote-posts implemented with no quote policy, I think it's rather safe to assume that you're okay with being quote-posted.

I mean, if you're on Misskey, complaining about being quote-posted is like complaining about emoji reactions, MFM shenanigans or the overall genki feeling. Misskey is not Mastodon with 3,000 characters; deal with it. And I haven't even mentioned "Speak as Cat" yet that's popular around the Forkeys.

You might have seen my comment in the forum thread on a way to make it easier for platforms like Friendica to signal a free-for-all quoting permission.

I was just about to say that this goes doubly for those server applications where quote-posts are an integral part of the communication culture.

Seriously, if you're on one of these, but you don't want anyone to quote-post you, and you still insist in always posting in public, you're doing something wrong. And just as seriously, unlike Mastodon, especially the Friendica/Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte family won't mollycoddle you. If you come to stay, we expect you to know what you're doing and why.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #FEP_044f

@Julian Fietkau I'm surprised to read that (streams) allegedly has FEP-e232 implemented. As I happen to have two (streams) channels myself, and as (streams) allows me to have a look at the whole source code of any activity (whereas Hubzilla only shows me that of the content), I've checked a fairly recent post of mine that includes a link. And while it does define the hashtags just like Mastodon and Hubzilla, it does not define links in a way that conforms to FEP-e232. Either that, or (streams)' implementation of FEP-e232 is newer than the software was when I sent that post.



Next, I wanted to see if (streams) had its way of quote-posting changed in the last seven years or so of development and forking. I expected it to quote-post like Hubzilla, namely by turning a BBcode short code into a dumb copy of the original upon sending, but I wanted to see proof. As (streams) is a fork of a fork of three forks of a fork (of a fork) of Hubzilla that's still maintained by Hubzilla's own creator, I would have been surprised if he had changed the way (streams) quote-posts at some point on the way.

So I quote-posted my own post on (streams) just to see what happens. And (streams) acted exactly like Hubzilla and not at all like described in FEP-044f on the surface. It still inserts a dumb copy.

Good thing I have access to the full source code of any message on (streams). So here's what happened, namely what I expected to happen: (streams) quote-posts like Hubzilla.

First of all, when I clicked the "Share" button, this short code was inserted into the post editor:

[share⁠=1198713][/share]

The number, by the way, is the running number of the message to quote-post on the server.

Upon sending the post, (streams) automatically "expanded" the short code into the dumb copy I had expected.

[⁠share author='Jupiter+Rowland' profile='https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/channel/jupiter_rowland' portable_id='_moYLN61-o3FbP3jyThygMDf-bjF2cApXgkrwlAE77iKy19xM1_6F06V4b71eTkqqNaTUjGiN0lfw2dyn5nXRw' avatar='https://streams.elsmussols.net/xp/6b50efa4bb804860f6128bba791b74fab4a0a5e09dbcbee8d8ca77cee00f0330-6' link='https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a1cdda5-eb1c-4a33-9574-ddd896977b4f' auth='true' posted='2025-09-21 19:42:56' message_id='https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a1cdda5-eb1c-4a33-9574-ddd896977b4f'] ...(the source code of the original message goes here)... [/share]

Both Hubzilla and (streams) render this the same way, namely with a header line above the copy that includes the profile picture of the original author, the name of the original author with a Zot/Nomad-type link to their channel/account and a Zot/Nomad-type link to the original of the post ("Zot/Nomad-type" means that [zrl][/zrl] is used rather than [url][/url] which means that the ID of an observer on Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte is attached to the link for OpenWebAuth identity recognition purposes.)

At the same time, curiously, (streams) includes the line "rel": "https://misskey-hub.net/ns#_misskey_quote" and a line that starts with "name": "RE: and continues with the URL of the original message into the code for the link to the original message. The latter is identical to what Misskey and all Forkeys have in quote-posting notes in plain sight, only that (streams) only reveals it in the source code rather than in the content as well.

So this part of FEP-044f is implemented, albeit concealed from most people and only happening in the code.



Now, looking at the quote policy part, that looks like it could be possible to add to the Fediverse's permission champions Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. After all, they already have comment controls with no FEP backing it (and if GoToSocial's quote policy can be made into an FEP, maybe so can (streams)' and Forte's comment controls so that they actually do blank out reply buttons on the farther ends of the Fediverse if the software on the farther ends implement support for that FEP).

This could be done at three levels again. I'll illustrate this with (streams) and Forte because they're quite a bit less complex than older Hubzilla.

At channel level, quote-posting (and maybe quoting as well) could be set as usually, namely to semi-public (= everyone in the Fediverse = no quote policy), restricted (= only your contacts) and only yourself. (Seriously, you don't want random passersby with no accounts to quote-post you. Even though you can allow them to comment on your posts if you dare.)

"Only yourself" could be overridden at contact level by permitting certain contacts to quote-post (and maybe quote) your messages. This is actually standard behaviour on (streams) and Forte.

And then there is the per-post level which would be similar to (streams)' and Forte's comment controls. These allow you to limit who may comment on a post to only your contacts and those who have already participated in the same conversation, and they allow you to turn off comments altogether.

Quote authorisation would not be much different in handling from manually moderating comments from those who technically aren't permitted to comment (only that spammers don't quote-post, at least not yet, and they probably never will because that simply makes no sense). So that'd be nothing really new.

Of course, this would have some limitations which come from how Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte work and from their conversation architecture.

The first limitation is that you could only give certain contacts permission to quote-post your posts if you didn't give it to the whole Fediverse. Channel-wide permissions are always inherited by contact-specific permissions, and this cannot be overridden. So you couldn't generally allow everyone to quote-post your posts except for one certain contact of yours.

The second limitation is that you can only control the permissions of contacts, but not of non-contacts. So you can't disallow some stranger whom you aren't connected to to quote-post your posts while everyone else is allowed.

Then again, FEP-044f doesn't make either of these two possible either. It can only define who is permitted to quote-post a post, not who isn't.

The third limitation is that, on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, comments always have the same permissions as the post that they belong to because comments always have the same owner as the post that they belong to. Basically, if FEP-044f was to be defined for each comment individually, it would have a chance of clashing with conversation containers as per FEP-171b.

Here on Hubzilla, as well as from (streams)' point of view, everyone's comments in this thread are owned by me because I've started the thread. And the permissions on all these comments are defined by my post. I've seen my share of permission clashes whenever someone on Mastodon replied to a public post or a public comment with a DM, and Hubzilla overrode this by forcing the permissions of the post on that reply.

In practice, this means that the quote policies of all comments would be the same as that of the post. At least that's how Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte would understand them because the concept of comments having different permissions than the post is alien to them. So if you say that I'm not permitted to quote-post your comment, but I say that anyone can quote-post my post, Hubzilla and (streams) override the quote policy that you've given your comment on Mastodon with the quote policy that I've given my post on Hubzilla, and I can quote-post you.

So the actually difficult part would be to implement an exception in how Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte handle comment permissions for quote policies and make them individual for each comment rather than making comments inherit them from the post.

Well, and lastly, if you permitted all your contacts to quote-post a post of yours, and you had a few more contacts, the "canQuote" section would end up monstrous. (A bit less so if you could cherry-pick those who are allowed to quote-post you on a per-post base, just like you can cherry-pick those who are allowed to see the post in the first place.) Also, I'm wondering just how well policies as per FEP-044f (and their implementations in various server applications) will work with DIDs as per FEP-ef61 which (streams) and Forte use, and I guess, so does Mitra now.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #GoToSocial #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Mitra #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Permission #Permissions #FEP_044f #FEP_171b #FEP_e232 #FEP_ef61

@Schlüssellochkind 👁️ Das ist auch ein Punkt: Nicht nur kann man Quote-Posts nicht verhindern, sondern selbst wenn man das könnte, würden die, die man am Quote-Posten gehindert hat, eben etwas anderes machen, und sei es ein Screenshot.

#QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@Schlüssellochkind 👁️

Ich wüsste garnicht, wie ich mich zu quoten "erlauben" könnte, oder warum ich das verbieten sollte (völlig sinnlos..),

Ich nehme mal an, du bist ein weißer, heterosexueller Cis-Mann?

Wer mindestens eins davon nicht ist und lange genug auf Twitter war, ist mit nicht zu unterschätzender Wahrscheinlichkeit auf Twitter per Drüko oder Druko angegriffen worden. Genau das sind die Leute, die sich ihr neues Zuhause auf Mastodon eingerichtet haben, weil ihnen erzählt wurde, daß sie da nicht gedrükot/gedrukot werden können.

Seit Mastodon angekündigt hat, Quote-Posts einzuführen, scheißen sich genau diese Leute ein vor lauter Angst. Sie können sich nicht vorstellen, daß irgendjemand irgendwo jemals Quote-Posts anders eingesetzt haben sollte. Also setzen sie einiges daran, nicht quote-postbar zu sein.

ein "ping" gequotet worden zu sein kann ich nicht erinnern, evtl. noch nie passier..

Dann hat dich noch nie jemand auf Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) oder Forte gequote-postet.

Wenn dich jemand woanders gequote-postet hätte (*oma, *key usw.), hättest du das nicht gemerkt. Da funktioniert das nämlich anders.

und vielen ist auch völllig klar, daß mastodon nicht das fediverse ist und es noch zig andere gibt (sieht man doch an diversen Dingen die mastos nicht können)

Locker die Hälfte aller Mastodon-Nutzer glaubt aber immer noch, das Fediverse ist nur Mastodon. Viele andere glauben, das Fediverse ist nur Mastodon plus Zeugs, das aussieht, als wäre es als Extra an Mastodon drangebaut worden (PeerTube, Pixelfed, Owncast, Funkwhale usw.).

Und von dem Rest glauben wieder viele, daß es im Fediverse (außerhalb von Mastodon-Servern, die schon 4.5 Alpha fahren) noch keine Quote-Posts gibt; dazu habe ich sogar mal eine Umfrage gefahren.

das soll ich für böse Hacks halten? 😂 les ich zum ersten Mal von. 🤷‍♂️

Du hast im Fediverse bisher nur Mastodon benutzt? Dann weißt du auch nicht, was denen widerfährt, die statt Mastodon etwas anderes benutzen.

@Jakbous Schürz ist nämlich tatsächlich mal von einer Mastodon-Nutzerin blockiert worden, weil er Friendica benutzt. Für sie war das Fediverse ein reines Mastodon-Netzwerk und Jakob ein böser Hacker, der sich mit einem bösen Hackertool namens Friendica illegalerweise ins Mastodon-Fediverse reingehackt hat. Frag ihn.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NichtNurMastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@Montag

Ich mache mir allerdings ein bisschen Sorgen, was passiert wenn irgendjemand auf Friendica/Hubzilla/Whatever einen Mastodon Beitrag von jemanden zitiert (quoteposted) der das nicht möchte und der dann mitbekommt das sein Beitrag zitiert wird. Ich auf Friendica kann ja nicht sehen, ob jemand damit einverstanden ist, es kann also leicht passieren das man einen Beitrag von jemanden zitiert (wenn ich jetzt "zitiert" schreibe meine ich einen Quoted-Share), der das nicht möchte.

Zumal, wie ich schon schrieb, kaum jemand auf Mastodon weiß, daß praktisch alles, was Mikro- oder Makroblogging kann und nicht Mastodon ist, schon lange Quote-Posts kann und problemlos Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten kann. Oder daß überhaupt irgendwas Quote-Posts kann. Daraus, daß Mastodon jetzt Quote-Posts anzeigen, aber noch keine erzeugen kann, schlußfolgert irgendwie niemand, daß diese Quote-Posts, die Mastodon anzeigen kann, ja irgendwoher kommen müssen. Und nicht von mastodon.social, das jetzt schon eine 4.5-Alpha fährt. Dadurch wird vielleicht noch ein paar mehr Mastodon-Nutzern klar, daß es da draußen noch einiges mehr als Mastodon geben muß.

Auf der anderen Seite können aber auch wir nicht wissen, wer auf Mastodon jetzt bei welchem Tröt das Quote-Posten erlaubt hat.

Dazu kommt, und das weiß ich aus Erfahrung: Wenn man auf Friendica oder einem Nachfahren jemanden auf Mastodon quote-postet, dann wird derjenige darüber benachrichtigt, als wenn er erwähnt worden wäre. Das heißt, Mastodon-Nutzer werden das mitkriegen.

Deine Angst vor Fediblocks ist nicht ungerechtfertigt. Hast du mal den Feature Request auf GitHub gesehen? Da stand zusätzlich, daß es eine mastodonweit verbindliche Regel geben muß, nach der jede Instanz, die Mastodons Quote-Post-Erlaubnis nicht berücksichtigt, sofort gefediblockt werden soll. Daran alleine erkennt man schon, daß die Autorin des Feature Request vom Fediverse keine Ahnung hat. Konsequent durchgezogen hätte das nämlich bedeutet, daß Pleroma und alle Forks, Misskey und alle Forks, Friendica und sein ganzer Stammbaum, Mitra usw. usf. als ganze Projekte komplett hätten gefediblockt werden müssen.

Konkret sehe ich jetzt zwei gefährliche Szenarien.

Das eine ist, daß jemand, der nicht gequote-postet werden will und dann von außerhalb von Mastodon tatsächlich gequote-postet wird, davon derart schockiert ist, daß das direkt zur Forderung führt, die Instanz des Quoteposters sofort zu fediblocken. Das kann ja nur eine böswilligerweise gehackte Instanz sein! Die Folge ist, daß darauf etliche Mastodon-Admins anspringen, die auch nicht wissen, daß das Fediverse außerhalb von Mastodon a) schon ewig quote-posten kann und b) natürlich Mastodons proprietäre Non-Standard-"Berechtigung" nicht implementiert hat, und tausende Mastodon-Instanzen tatsächlich diese Nicht-Mastodon-Instanz sofort blocken.

Schlimmstenfalls bekommt davon einer derjenigen Wind, die eine dieser berühmt-berüchtigten Blocklisten pflegen. Ohne zu überprüfen, was da eigentlich los ist und warum diese Instanz quote-posten kann (z. B. weil das Friendica ist und Friendica schon seit 15 Jahren quote-posten kann), setzt derjenige die Instanz auf die Blockliste, und tausende Mastodon-Instanzen (und womöglich auch andere) blocken sie dann vollautomatisch.

Das andere ist, daß alsbald irgendjemand sich mal die Mühe macht zu gucken, was das da eigentlich ist, was gerade jemanden unerlaubterweise gequote-postet hat. Aha, Akkoma/Misskey/Sharkey/Friendica/Hubzilla/Mitra/was auch immer. Das kann also quote-posten, wie man gerade eben erst auf die harte Tour gelernt hat. Unabhängig davon, ob man nun annimmt, daß es gerade erst kürzlich Quote-Posts eingeführt hat, also nach Mastodon, oder ob man dann doch in Erwägung zieht, daß diese Software schon länger quote-posten kann.

Jedenfalls könnte so ein Ereignis oder gar eine ganze Kette davon genau den Kreuzzug auf Mastodon-Seite gegen die "Eindringlinge" aus dem Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse einleiten, mit dem ich sowieso schon seit Jahren rechne. Allmählich lernen die Mastodon-Nutzer zum einen, was die Nicht-Mastodon-Serveranwendungen für Sachen können, die der Mastodon-Kultur entgegenstehen (nicht nur Quote-Posts, sondern auch weit über 500 Zeichen und so), und zum anderen, welche Serveranwendungen solche Sachen können.

Dann wird es Forderungen, auch auf GitHub, geben nach:

• einem Schalter, mit dem man im eigenen Konto all diese Software blockieren kann
• einem Schalter, mit dem man im eigenen Konto alles blockieren kann, was nicht Mastodon ist
• dito, aber standardmäßig aktiviert (der Einfachheit für die Nutzer halber)
• dito, aber zusätzlich oder ausschließlich (der Einfachheit für die Nutzer halber) für Admins
• einer harten, fest eingebauten Totalblockade aller Software, von der bekannt ist, daß sie sich nicht an Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln hält (hier wird es vielleicht schon ein bißchen Protest geben)
• der kompletten Deföderation Mastodons von allem, was nicht Mastodon ist, damit "das Fediverse" endlich "wieder" nur Mastodon ist (hier wird es hoffentlich mehr Protest geben)

Generell wird es zunehmend Feindseligkeiten gegenüber den Teilen des Fediverse geben, die weder Mastodon sind noch wie Mastodon-Extras aussehen. Schon jetzt streiten ja praktisch sämtliche Mastodon-Nutzer vehement ab, daß das Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse systematisch diskriminiert wird. Dann aber werden sie von "Selbstverteidigung" reden.

Es wird behauptet werden, einzig Mastodon sei links im Fediverse. Es wird behauptet werden, einzig Mastodon sei "sicher" im Fediverse. Möglicherweise werden sogar Gerüchte herumgehen, daß so Sachen wie Akkoma, Misskey, Sharkey, Friendica, Hubzilla usw., von denen man ja erst durch das Quote-Post-Drama gehört hat, erst im Juli oder August 2025 erfunden wurden und auch das nur zu dem Zweck, Mastodons Quote-Post-Erlaubnis umgehen zu können.

Irgendjemand wird dann anfangen, per Hand die Adressen aller Instanzen von Serversoftware zu sammeln, von der auf Mastodon bekannt ist, daß sie quote-posten kann, und daraus eine Blockliste zu bauen, die jeder Mastodon-Admin verwenden kann. Jemand anders wird das Ganze stark vereinfachen und den Fediverse Observer und die FediDB automatisiert scrapen, also alle gefundenen Instanzen von Friendica, alle gefundenen Instanzen von Hubzilla, alle gefundenen Instanzen von Misskey usw. automatisch in eine Blockliste eintragen zu lassen.

Bei The Bad Space ist es dann keine Frage mehr, ob, sondern wann da die ersten abonnierbaren Listen ganze Fediverse-Software ausschließen. Und sogar bei Oliphant halte ich es für denkbar, daß die automatisierte Liste mit als Quelle aufgenommen wird. Immerhin geht es jetzt um die Sicherheit von Mastodon.

Das kann ich auch sehr gut nachvollziehen, ich glaube allerdings, das eine technische Lösung für ein Soziales Problem nicht funktioniert.

Quote-Posts sind ohnehin praktisch nicht zu verhindern. Innerhalb Mastodons nur mit einer proprietären Lösung, und die hat Mastodon ja auch noch nicht mal implementiert.

Fediverseweit funktioniert das schon mal erst recht nicht. ActivityPub hat ja kein Berechtigungssystem vorgesehen. Und selbst wenn jemand das Berechtigungssystem von Forte und seinen Vorfahren in FEPs gießen würde: Selbst die haben keine Quote-Post-Berechtigung. Und wenn die das schon nicht haben, kann man das prinzipiell als Käse abhängen.

Das sagt Mike ja immer wieder gebetsmühlenartig: Die einzige wirksame Möglichkeit, Quote-Posts zu verhindern, ist, nicht öffentlich zu posten.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #NichtNurMastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@Montag Wichtig übrigens: "Quote" und "Quote-Post" sind zwei völlig verschiedene Dinge. Die darf man nicht miteinander verwechseln.



Quotes sind Zitate. Also das hier:

das heißt, auf Mastodon sieht man einen Quote nur wenn der zitierte expliziet zustimmt, während der Quote auf allen anderen Fediverse Plattformen ganz normal angezeigt wird?

Um die geht es hier aber nicht. Mastodon-Nutzer kennen nämlich keine Quotes, keine Zitate.

Mastodon-Nutzer kennen ja im allgemeinen nur Twitter und Mastodon. Twitter hat keine Zitate. Mastodon auch nicht; es kann sie zwar anzeigen und seit Mastodon 4.0 (Oktober 2022) auch sauber, aber es kann sie nicht erzeugen. Und deswegen kennen Mastodon-Nutzer das gar nicht.



Quote-Posts, um die es hier geht, sind dagegen komplette Posts, die in andere Posts reingebaut sind. Das ist das, was auf Friendica "Quoted Share" heißt. Also das hier:

Montag wrote the following post Sat, 19 Jul 2025 23:08:45 +0200 @Matthias das heißt, auf Mastodon sieht man einen Quote nur wenn der zitierte expliziet zustimmt, während der Quote auf allen anderen Fediverse Plattformen ganz normal angezeigt wird? Das ist grober Unfug und ergibt überhaupt keinen Sinn, was haben sich die Mastodon Entwickler dabei gedacht?

Auf Twitter heißt das "Quote-Tweet". Oder im Deutschen auch "Drüko" ("Drüber-Kommentar"; erst der Kommentar zum Tweet, dann der eingebettete Tweet) oder "Druko" ("Drunter-Kommentar"; erst der eingebettete Tweet, dann der Kommentar zum Tweet). Auf Mastodon wird auch "Quote-Toot" oder "Quote-Tröt" gesagt.

Auf Friendica und Nachfolgern war das früher die einzige Möglichkeit überhaupt, einen Post weiterzuleiten. So etwas wie Retweets (Mastodon: "Boosts", Friendica: "Shares", Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte: "Repeats") wurde erst später nach und nach eingeführt.

Auf Twitter ist dagegen in der Praxis das einzige Einsatzgebiet dieses Feature, über anderer Leute Tweets herzuziehen und diese anderen Leute auf dem Wege niederzumachen. Für was anderes werden Quote-Tweets da buchstäblich nicht benutzt.

Und so ist es für Mastodon-Nutzer komplett unvorstellbar, daß irgendjemand irgendwo dieses Feature für was anderes nutzen könnte.

Viele sind ja von Twitter nach Mastodon auch deswegen abgehauen, weil Mastodon eben keine Quote-Posts hat. Weil sie glaubten, da vor Quote-Posts sicher zu sein.

Als Mastodon dann ankündigte, Quote-Posts einzuführen, haben ganz besonders Angehörige unterdrückter Minderheiten (Farbige, Schwule, Lesben, Transpersonen usw.) lautstark dagegen protestiert.

Noch einmal: Niemand von denen wußte und weiß bis heute, daß es im Fediverse schon lange Quote-Posts gab und jeder Mastodon-Tröt jederzeit ungehindert außerhalb Mastodon und dann nach Mastodon rein quote-post-bar ist.

Genau deshalb kommt Mastodon mit diesem "Feigenblatt" davon: Dieser Schalter wiegt die Mastodon in Sicherheit. In einer Sicherheit, die sie nie hatten, was aber annähernd niemand auf Mastodon weiß.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #NichtNurMastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte

Are you referring to my mentions being @Erik :heart_agender: and @Roknrol rather than what you're used to, namely @⁠bright_helpings and @⁠roknrol? Using the long name rather than the short name and keeping the @ outside the link rather than making it part of the link? Likewise, the # being outside the hashtag link rather than being part of it?

This is because I'm not on Mastodon. The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. It has never been. So this is not a toot.

No, really. This is what I post from: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/channel/jupiter_rowland, https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/profile/jupiter_rowland. I ask you: Does this look like Mastodon? Have you ever seen Mastodon look like this?

Where I am, this style of mentions and hashtags is hard-coded. And it has been since long before Mastodon was even an idea.

I'm on something named Hubzilla. Hubzilla is not a Mastodon instance. Hubzilla is not a Mastodon fork either. Hubzilla has got absolutely nothing to do with Mastodon at all.

It is its very own project, fully independent from Mastodon (https://hubzilla.org, https://framagit.org/hubzilla, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla).

Hubzilla has not intruded into "the Mastodon Fediverse" either. The Fediverse is older than Mastodon. And Hubzilla was there before Mastodon.

Hubzilla was launched by @Mike Macgirvin ?️ in March, 2015, eight months before Mastodon, by renaming and redesigning his own Red Matrix from 2012, almost four years before Mastodon. And the Red Matrix was a fork of a fork of his own Friendica, which was launched on July 2nd, 2010, 15 years ago, five and a half years before Mastodon. (https://en.wikipedia.org/Friendica, https://friendi.ca, https://github.com/friendica, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Friendica)

Friendica was there before Mastodon, too.

Here's the official Friendica/Hubzilla timeline on Hubzilla's official website to show you that I'm not making anything up: https://hubzilla.org/page/info/timeline. Scroll all the way down and notice all the features that you may right now know for a fact that the Fediverse doesn't have, but that Friendica has introduced to the Fediverse 15 years ago, five and a half years before Mastodon was launched.

Again, Mastodon has never been its own network. The Fediverse has never been only Mastodon. When Mastodon was launched in January, 2016, it immediately federated with

• GNU social, the successor to @Evan Prodromou's StatusNet from 2008 (the actual start of the Fediverse, eight years older than Mastodon)
• @Mike Macgirvin ?️'s Friendica, now maintained by @Tobias and @Michael 🇺🇦
• @Mike Macgirvin ?️'s Hubzilla

Friendica has been formatting mentions and hashtags the way I just did for 15 years now. When Mastodon was launched, Friendica has been formatting them that way for five and a half years already, and Hubzilla has done so for ten months. It is hard-coded there. It is not a user option.

That's because not everything in the Fediverse is a Twitter clone or Twitter alternative. [b]Friendica was designed as a Facebook alternative with full-blown long-form blogging capability. And Hubzilla adds even more stuff to this. This is why Friendica and Hubzilla don't mimic Twitter.

Another shocking fact: As you can clearly see here, Friendica and Hubzilla don't have Mastodon's 500-character limit. Friendica's character limit is 200,000. Hubzilla's character limit is 16,777,215, the maximum length of the database field. And it's deeply engrained in their culture, which is many years older than Mastodon's culture, to not worry about the length of a post exceeding 500 characters.

One more shocking fact: Friendica has had quote-posts since its very beginning. So has Hubzilla. Both have always been able to quote-post any public Mastodon toot, and they will forever remain able to quote-post any public Mastodon toot. And Mastodon will never be able to do anything against it. (By the way: In 15 years of Friendica, nobody has ever used quote-posts for dogpiling or harassment purposes. Neither Friendica nor Hubzilla is Twitter.)

You find this disturbing? You think none of this should exist in the Fediverse, even though all this has been in the Fediverse for longer than Mastodon?

Then go ahead and block all instances of Friendica and Hubzilla as well as all instances of Mike's later creations, (streams) (https://codeberg.org/streams/streams) from 2021 and Forte (https://codeberg.org/fortified/forte) from 2024.

• https://friendica.fediverse.observer/list
• https://fedidb.com/software/friendica
• https://rumbly.net/communities?project=friendica
• https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu/communities?project=friendica
• https://streams.elsmussols.net/communities?project=friendica
• https://hubzilla.fediverse.observer/list
• https://fedidb.com/software/hubzilla
• https://rumbly.net/communities?project=hubzilla
• https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu/communities?project=hubzilla
• https://streams.elsmussols.net/communities?project=hubzilla
• https://rumbly.net/communities?type=streams_repository
• https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu/communities?type=streams_repository
• https://streams.elsmussols.net/communities?type=streams_repository
• https://rumbly.net/communities?project=forte
• https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu/communities?project=forte
• https://streams.elsmussols.net/communities?project=forte

Or you could go ask @Seirdy / DM me the word "bread" and @Garden Fence Blocklist as well as @Mad Villain of @The Bad Space to add every last instance on any of these lists to their blocklists for being "rampantly and unabashedly ableist and xenophobic by design" due to not being and acting and working like Mastodon and just as rampantly and unabashedly refusing to fully adopt and adapt to the Mastodon-centric "Fediverse culture" as defined by fresh Twitter refugees on Mastodon in mid-2022 as well as refusing to abandon their own culture which is disturbingly incompatible with Mastodon's. Essentially try and have four entire Fediverse server applications Fediblocked once and for all because they're so disturbing from a "Fediverse equals Mastodon" point of view.

Or you could go to Mastodon's GitHub repository (https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon), submit a feature request for defederating Mastodon from everything that isn't Mastodon by design and then go lobbying for support for your feature request.

As for why I have so many hashtags below my comments, here is what they mean. Many of them are meant to trigger filters, including such that automatically hide posts behind content warning buttons, a feature that Mastodon has had since October, 2022, that Friendica has had since July, 2010, and that Hubzilla has had since March, 2015.

• #Long, #LongPost = This post is over 500 characters long. Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see my or anyone else's long posts.
• #CWLong, #CWLongPost = CW: long post (over 500 characters long). Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see my or anyone else's long posts.
• #FediMeta, #FediverseMeta = This post talks about the Fediverse. Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone talk about the Fediverse.
• #CWFediMeta, #CWFediverseMeta = CW: Fediverse meta. Or: CW: Fediverse meta, Fediverse-beyond-Mastodon meta. Or: CW: Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta. Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone talk about the Fediverse.
• #NotOnlyMastodon, #FediverseIsNotMastodon, #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse: This post talks about the Fediverse not only being Mastodon. Create a filter for either or multiple or all of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about the Fediverse being more than Mastodon. Otherwise, click or tap any of these hashtags to read more about it in your Fediverse app.
• #Friendica: This post talks about the Facebook alternative in the Fediverse named Friendica. Create a filter for it if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Friendica. Otherwise, click or tap it to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
• #Hubzilla: This post talks about the Swiss army knif of the Fediverse named Hubzilla. Create a filter for it if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Hubzilla. Otherwise, click or tap it to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
• #Streams, #(streams): This post talks about the Facebook alternative in the Fediverse commonly referred to as (streams). Create a filter for either or both of them if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Friendica. Otherwise, click or tap either of them to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
• #Forte: This post talks about the Facebook alternative in the Fediverse named Forte. Create a filter for it if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Forte. Otherwise, click or tap it to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
• #AltText = This post talks about alt-text and/or contains an image with alt-text. It is primarily meant for post discovery.
• #AltTextMeta = This post talks about alt-text. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about alt-text.
• #CWAltTextMeta = CW: alt-text meta. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about alt-text.
• #ImageDescription = This post talks about image descriptions and/or contains an image with an image description. It is primarily meant for post discovery.
• #ImageDescriptions, #ImageDescriptionMeta = This post talks about image descriptions. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about image descriptions.
• #CWImageDescriptionMeta = CW: image description meta. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about image descriptions.
• #Hashtag, #Hashtags, #HashtagMeta = This post talks about hashtags. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about hashtags.
• #CWHashtagMeta = CW: hashtag meta. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about hashtags.
• #CharacterLimit, #CharacterLimits = This post is talking about character limits. It is primarily meant for post discovery. But if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about character limits, create a filter for any of these hashtags.
• #QuotePost, #QuoteTweet, #QuoteToot, #QuoteBoost = This post talks about quote-posts and/or contains a quote-post. If this disturbs you, create a filter for any of these hashtags.
• #QuotePosts, #QuoteTweets, #QuoteToots, #QuoteBoosts, #QuotedShares = This post talks about quote-posts. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about quote-posts.
• #QuotePostDebate, #QuoteTootDebate = This post talks about quote-posts. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about quote-posts.
• #FediblockMeta = This post is talking about fediblocks. It is primarily meant for post discovery.

Lastly: Having all hashtags in one line at the very end of a post that only contains hashtags is the preferred way in the Fediverse. For one, hashtags in their own line at the end of the post irritate screen reader users much less than hashtags in the middle of the text. It's actually hashtags in the middle of the text that are ableist. Besides, Mastodon is explicitly designed to have a separate hashtag line at the end of the post.

@Scott M. Stolz Don't mix up quotes and quote-posts. They're something very different, not only in technology, but also in use-case and especially in cultural implications.

Whereas on platforms with threaded conversations, quotes are usually used in comments within a thread, and on many platforms, such comments could be removed by the thread owner.

This is a quote. Like in a bulletin-board forum. This is actually only used in comments. For Mastodon users, it's basically unimaginable that this ever happens in social media. Twitter has never had this, so most Mastodon users don't even know the very concept of this. Thus, it is not what they're upset about.

What Mastodon users are so upset about are quote-posts. What they refer to as "quote-posts" or "quote-toots" is what we call "shares" or "shared posts", what Twitter/X calls "quote-tweets", and what is used on Twitter/X for harassment and dogpiling purposes, namely this:

Scott M. Stolz wrote the following post Tue, 10 Jun 2025 08:54:18 +0200 It should be noted that Twitter-style platforms use quote posts in an entirely different way than platforms with threaded conversations.

With Mastodon, someone can quote you, criticize you, and then people dogpile on. Since it is not part of a thread, and is its own top level post, nothing can be done about it.

Whereas on platforms with threaded conversations, quotes are usually used in comments within a thread, and on many platforms, such comments could be removed by the thread owner. Yes, they can create new top level post quoting someone, but that seems to be used less on threaded conversation platforms than on Twitter style platforms.

This creates a different culture surrounding quoting people, since one has potential consequences and one does not.

Plus, I think there is also a cultural difference between people who want to broadcast their thoughts versus people who want to join conversations. People who want to participate in conversations are typically less hostile since they get banned or blocked pretty quickly. People who broadcast their posts just want as many followers to see it as possible and tend to block anyone that disagrees with them. It is a different mindset.

That is why Mastodon has to implement quote controls, but thread conversation platforms do not.

You should see that it's something completely different. This never happens within the same thread. It wouldn't make sense to quote-post/quote-tweet/share a post in a comment on that same post.

This is what Mastodon users what to have control over. This is what they want to prevent. Entirely. They would want a switch that makes Hubzilla hide the Share button under a post of theirs if they knew that a) Hubzilla exists, and b) Hubzilla can share posts/quote-post.

This is what @Mike Macgirvin ?️ keeps preaching over and over and over that literally the only possible way to keep this from happening is by not posting in public. For this is what neither Hubzilla nor Mike's own (streams) and Forte have a permission setting for because even their highly advanced and fine-grained permissions systems have no way of implementing actually water-tight quote-post control. So what chance does Mastodon have with its total lack of a permission system and no understanding of Hubzilla's, (streams)', Forte's or even only Friendica's permission system?

Mastodon doesn't have either implemented, neither quotes nor shares/quote-posts, at least not beyond displaying quotes properly formatted (it is working on displaying quote-posts properly formatted now). Hubzilla has inherited both from Friendica which has had both for 15 years.

CC: @Matteo (Mastodon)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Quote #Quotes #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

@Matteo (Mastodon) Nur daß ich nirgendwo ein Zitat sehe (und ich sehe den kompletten Thread auf einem Haufen) und auch keinen Quote-Post (hier auf Hubzilla sind das zwei total verschiedene Sachen, und Hubzilla hat schon immer beides unterstützt; das gilt für die ganze Software-Familie).

Wahrscheinlich wenden Phanpy und Tusky irgendeinen Trick an, der Mastodons Einschränkungen umgeht, der aber mit etablierten Standards völlig inkompatibel ist. Wahrscheinlich wissen die Entwickler weder von Phanpy noch von Tusky, daß es Quote-Posts im Fediverse schon gibt, geschweige denn, wie die gemacht werden. Also hat sich da jemand etwas völlig Neues ausgedacht, das dann nur von ein, zwei Mastodon-Apps unterstützt wird, aber von keiner einzigen Serversoftware, die Quote-Posts eingebaut hat.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@Matteo (Mastodon)

Anyone can copy text from anywhere, start a new thread in the Fediverse, copy it in there, mark it as a quote or not, and make fun of the author.

And if that fails, they'll resort to what they've always been doing: screenshots. Not even (streams) and Forte with their advanced permissions systems can keep people from taking screenshots. (Then again, they don't have a quote-post permission setting either because such a thing wouldn't work across the Fediverse anyway.)

In the meantime, Friendica has had quote-posts for a decade and a half, and they've always been used sincerely, believe it or not. Same on Friendica's various descendants.

If the author is not fairly mentioned in the thread, he may never find out about it and be able to defend himselve.

If you're quote-posted from Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte, you're automatically notified as if you've been mentioned. I'm not sure about those server apps that have implemented Misskey's way of quote-posting, though.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

@@reiver ⊼ (Charles) :batman:

I didn't know Hubzilla had been doing quote-posts for so long — very cool.

It has indirectly inherited them from Friendica, and Friendica was born with quote-posts as early as 2010.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Friendica #Hubzilla

@Tuxi ⁂ Was stört's die deutsche Eiche, wenn sich die Sau an ihr reibt?

Was stört's den Friendica-Nutzer, wenn der Riesennode, auf dem er ist, von 8000 Mastodon-Instanzen blockiert wird, weil Friendica Mastodons Quote-Post-Opt-In/Opt-Out nicht berücksichtigt? Und auf über 700 *key-Instanzen, weil deren Admins gar nicht wissen, warum zum Fediblock dieses Node aufgerufen wurde, aber vorsichtshalber mal mitmachen?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte #FediblockMeta

@Michael 🇺🇦 Quote-Posts.

Drükos bzw. Drukos.

Auf Friendica, Hubzilla & Co. das Teilen von Posts, das seit 2010 im Grunde die Standardmethode ist und die meiste Zeit die einzige verfügbare Methode war, um Posts an andere Leute weiterzuleiten.

Die Twitter-nach-Mastodon-Konvertiten, die aber den überwiegenden Teil der Fediverse-Nutzer ausmachen, kennen das als Quote-Tweets, aber auch nur als Methode, um Farbige, Schwule usw. auf Twitter zu drangsalieren. Das ist der einzige Verwendungszweck, den sie dafür kennen. Einen anderen können sie sich auch gar nicht vorstellen. Das kommt in der Twitter-Kultur so nicht vor.

Die 60% sind eben die Twitter-nach-Mastodon-Konvertiten. Und von diesen 60% "wissen" mindestens 59, daß es im Fediverse keine Quote-Posts gibt. Und mindestens 35, daß das Fediverse nur Mastodon ist.

Jetzt hat Mastodon die Einführung von Quote-Posts angekündigt. Die 60% flippen jetzt natürlich ihren Shit, vor allem die Angehörigen von Minderheiten, die auf Twitter mit Quote-Tweets drangsaliert werden.

Aaaaaber: Mastodon hat auch angekündigt, daß es einen Opt-Out- oder Opt-In-Schalter für Mastodon-Profile geben wird. Damit sollen Mastodon-Nutzer kontrollieren können, ob andere Mastodon-Nutzer ihre Tröts quote-posten können oder nicht.

Wie gut kennst du Hubzilla? Stell dir eine Berechtigungseinstellung "Darf meine Beiträge wiederholen und teilen" vor. Nur daß Mastodon kein Berechtigungssystem hat.

Und nur daß das ein Eigengezücht von Mastodon sein wird, das keinerlei Grundlage in ActivityPub hat, geschweige denn in irgendwas, was schon irgendwo implementiert ist.

Heißt mit anderen Worten: Pleroma und seine Forks, Misskey und seine Forks, Friendica und seine Forks usw. usf., die werden weiterhin allesamt Tröts von jedem Mastodon-Nutzer widerstandslost quote-posten können, egal, ob sie das qua Mastodon-Kontoeinstellungen dürfen oder nicht. Weil sie gar nicht wissen können, ob sie das dürfen oder nicht.

Auf Mastodon glaubt aber beinahe ausnahmslos jeder, dieser Opt-In oder Opt-Out ist absolut wasserdicht. Es glaubt ja auch beinahe ausnahmslos jeder, daß Mastodon die erste und dann einzige Fediverse-Software sein wird mit Quote-Posts.

Wir haben im Grunde geschätzt folgende Aufteilung:

• 35%, die das Fediverse für nur Mastodon halten.
• 15%, die schon mal von Misskey und/oder Friendica gehört haben, sich aber nicht vorstellen können, daß die mit Mastodon verbunden sind, weil das doch ganz was anderes ist.
• 9%, die wissen, daß Misskey, Friendica & Co. mit Mastodon verbunden sind, die aber nicht wissen, daß Misskey, Friendica & Co. Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten können.
• 1%, die wissen, daß andere Fediverse-Serveranwendungen Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten können. Entweder, weil sie Leuten wie @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts, @Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝ und mir aufmerksam zugehört haben, oder weil sie selbst mal was anderes als Mastodon ausprobiert haben, und zwar etwas intensiver, oder weil sie noch etwas anderes als Mastodon nebenher nutzen.
• 40%, die primär etwas anderes als Mastodon nutzen und wissen, daß Quote-Posts im Fediverse eben nicht böswillig genutzt werden. Schon gar nicht ausschließlich. Und die auch ganz genau wissen, daß so ein Opt-Out oder Opt-In auf Mastodon sie nicht daran hindern können wird, Mastodon-Tröts zu quote-posten.

So, dann kommst du und teilst einfach mal einen interessanten Post von Mastodon. Was du nicht weißt: Der Nutzer, der das gepostet hat, hat in seinem Mastodon-Konto eingestellt, nicht gequote-postet werden zu dürfen. Kannst du nicht wissen. Kann auch Friendica nicht wissen. Aber trotzdem quote-postest du den.

Da kannst du mir glauben, der wird aber mal so richtig hart austicken. Der wird ja gar nicht wissen, daß du auf Friendica bist. Woher auch? Mastodon zeigt das nicht an. Und auf Mastodon geht auch keine Sau auf die lokalen Profile von Leuten und guckt, wo die sind. Keine Sau.

Zwei Dinge seien noch erwähnt. Zum einen: Wenn Friendica-, Hubzilla-, (streams)- oder Forte-Nutzer Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten, werden die Tröter darüber benachrichtigt. Zum anderen, noch einmal: Auf Mastodon gelten Quote-Posts immer als Akt der Aggression. Immer.

Der wird also glauben, daß du entweder auf einer gehackten Mastodon-Instanz bist oder auf irgendwas anderem, was explizit und mit Vorsatz so ausgelegt wurde, daß es den Mastodon-Quote-Post-Opt-In/Opt-Out umgeht.

Und dann wird das Geschrei losgehen. Bestenfalls wird gefordert, einen der beiden Friendica-Hauptentwickler (also dich) zu fediblocken, also daß du auf allen Fediverse-Instanzen (zumindest denen, die mitmachen), dauerhaft vom Admin gesperrt wird.

Schlimmstenfalls wird das gefordert für den ganzen Friendica-Node, auf dem du drauf bist, also inklusive allen anderen Nutzern. Warum? Weil Pirati.ca böse ist. Weil Pirati.ca Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten kann, auch wenn das gar nicht erlaubt ist.

Unvorstellbar? Unrealistisch?

Dann möchte ich noch einmal daran erinnern, daß @Jakbous Schürz dereinst von einer Mastodon-Nutzerin geblockt wurde, weil die glaubte, daß er ein böser Black-Hat-Hacker ist und Friendica ein böses Black-Hat-Hackertool, mit dem er sich illegalerweise und mit boshafter Intention ins Mastodon-Fediverse reingehackt hat, das von Gargron so entwickelt worden ist, daß nur Mastodon-Server sich miteinander verbinden können.

Frag ihn. Ist in echt so passiert. Also gibt's solche Leute auch in echt.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NichtNurMastodon #Pleroma #Misskey #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@*_jayrope Wenn du ihn naturbeläßt und ihn ganz old-schoolig für das benutzt, wofür wir heute Repeats haben. Also wie in Zeiten, als Hubzilla noch keine Repeats hatte.

Aber den schlechten Ruf hat der Quote-Post eben deshalb, weil auf Twitter auch Kommentare mit eingebaut werden.

#QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Drüko #Drükos #Druko #Drukos #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

Für die, die nicht wissen, worum es hier geht:

Es geht um Quote-Posts. Das, was man von Twitter auf Englisch als "Quote-Tweets" und auf Deutsch als "Drükos" ("Drüber-Kommentare") oder "Drukos" ("Drunter-Kommentare") kennt.

#QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Drüko #Drükos #Druko #Drukos #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@Matthias Die Quote-Posts an sich vielleicht nicht. Möglicherweise übernehmen sie dieselbe Technologie wie Misskey, weil Threads die auch hat.

Aber das Opt-In wird nur innerhalb von Mastodon funktionieren.

#CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares

@Lioh Und genau das wurde auf Twitter eingesetzt als Waffe gegen Angehörige von Minderheiten (BIPoC, 2SLGBTQQIA+ etc.). Im Grunde kennt man das als Twitter-User nur dafür.

Noch ein Grund, warum so viele von da nach Mastodon geflohen sind: weil Mastodon keine Quote-Posts/Drükos/Drukos hat.

Was aber kaum jemand auf Mastodon weiß: Das Fediverse hat sehr wohl Quote-Posts. Praktisch alles, was Mikro- oder Makroblogging macht und nicht "Mastodon" heißt, kann quote-posten. Und kann auch Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten.

Aussage, die ich gerade bekommen habe: Hubzilla und (streams) hätten nie die Möglichkeit haben dürfen, Mastodon-Tröts zu quote-posten, weil Mastodon sich gegen Quote-Posts entschieden hat.

Nur: Zum einen war 2016 das Nichtimplementieren von Quote-Posts keine Entscheidung zum Schutz von Twitter-Flüchtlingen, sondern zum Vereinfachen von Mastodon. Zum anderen müßten wahrscheinlich mehr als 60 Fediverse-Serveranwendungen für Mastodon eine Ausnahme einbauen.

Was für Twitter-Flüchtlinge auf Mastodon auch völlig unvorstellbar ist: Quote-Posts sind in fast 15 Jahren Friendica nie mißbräuchlich genutzt worden. Und überall sonst, was Quote-Posts kann, auch nicht.

Übrigens ist auch das wieder so ein Fall, wo Mastodon-Nutzer versuchen, dem gesamten Fediverse die Mastodon-Kultur aufzuzwingen und Features, die Mastodon nicht hat, wegzunehmen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares

@PaulaToThePeople

Mastodon decided against quote posts so far, so Hubzilla and (streams) should not allow quoting Mastodon posts.

I mean, I could propose to Mike, Mario and Harald to automatically remove the Share button under any and all posts and comments from Mastodon, just to see their reactions.

But as a matter of fact, Pleroma and Akkoma can quote-post Mastodon toots just the same. The same goes for Misskey and its over 50 forks, including but not limited to JavaScript-based Iceshrimp which won't get any new features, Iceshrimp.NET which isn't officially released yet, Sharkey, CherryPick and Catodon. And Friendica can quote-post Mastodon toots, too.

Several dozen Fediverse server projects can quote-post Mastodon toots. They all would have to change. Or they all would have had to change the moment that it was decided that Mastodon lacks quote-posts to protect its users rather than to stay simple.

And where are you reading that Mastodon will reinvent the wheel? To me it reads like they are working on Fediverse-wide interoperability for these features.

That has been Mastodon's track record since its very inception. I won't believe that anything has changed about this until Mastodon actually implements technology introduced by another Fediverse server project.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

@PaulaToThePeople It isn't just a matter of consent. Besides, for example, I do have quote-post control here on Hubzilla.

I can give permission to quote-post my posts to

• everyone in the Fediverse
• everyone on Hubzilla and (streams)
• everyone on this hub
• approved and unapproved connections
• only approved connections
• only those of my connections whom I explicitly give permission by contact role
• nobody but myself

Over on (streams), I can still give that permission to

• everyone in the Fediverse
• all my connections
• only myself + specific connections whom I grant that permission either by permission role or by individual connection settings

It's much more a matter of technology.

Mastodon is about to completely re-invent the wheel with a non-standard, Mastodon-only setting. This setting will only work within Mastodon simply because it probably won't even be documented anywhere, especially not before it's officially rolled out.

There simply is no way that every last instance of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. will have that setting implemented before Mastodon rolls it out so that even the users on mastodon.social are perfectly safe from the first second on.

Besides, @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️, creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte and still the only maintainer of the latter two, will never introduce proprietary Mastodon features to them. He'd rather risk (streams) and Forte becoming incompatible with Mastodon. The same goes for @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen, Hubzilla's main maintainers.

If Mastodon wants to become a perfectly safe haven against unallowed quote-posting, it has only got one choice: It must introduce something like (streams)' and Forte's user agent filter and use it to block just everything that isn't Mastodon. Like, include a hard-coded allowlist that only includes Mastodon plus what little can't quote or quote-post anyway.

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@PaulaToThePeople @Stefan Bohacek Keep one thing in mind:

Mastodon may not have quote-posts yet. But the Fediverse has quote-posts right now. And it has had them since before Mastodon was made.

Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc., they all have quote-posts. They're all fully capable of quote-posting any Mastodon toot.

None of them has introduced quote-posts to harass Twitter refugees on Mastodon. At least Friendica and Hubzilla have had quote-posts since long before Mastodon was even made.

You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.

At least by Mastodon users.

But since this will be Mastodon re-inventing the wheel with brand-new, proprietary, Mastodon-only technology, everything I've listed above will still be able to quote-post anyone and anything on Mastodon with zero resistance.

To quote-post myself and the guy who invented Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 01:29:11 +0200 I think I've just chased someone out of the Fediverse.

That someone was afraid of Mastodon being "screwed over" by becoming quote-post-able.

I've told him the truth: Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around. Mastodon became quote-post-able the very moment it was launched.

That's because when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with Friendica which is from 2010, which had been around for almost six years at that point, and which has had quote-posts from its own inception AFAIK. Mastodon also immediately federated with Hubzilla which has had quote-posts since its own inception, since it had been forked from Friendica, and that was in 2012.

Mastodon has never been un-quote-post-able.

Right now, there are dozens of Fediverse server apps whose users can quote-post Mastodon toots with no resistance.

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Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:18:39 +0200 The closest you'll ever get to making Mastodon un-quote-postable is to post privately. Not unlisted. Private. Most fediverse software will honour this today; and it doesn't require yet another "pretend permission". Like unlisted.

And Mike should know. He brought things to the Fediverse like actually working permissions. Including permissions on two levels to quote-post any content on a channel. Readily available right now at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Also, this is what people on Friendica and its descendants have been using quote-posts for since 2010.

You will be notified when someone quotes you.

You already are when someone on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts one of your posts.

As for Pleroma, Misskey and their forks, you aren't notified right now, and I've got my doubts that you will be after this change.

Also, "quote" and "quote-post" are two different things. Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can do both. "Quote" is what I'm doing right here. Whether or not you're notified depends on whether or not you're mentioned.

And blocking quotes is even less possible. A quote only consists of a pair of BBcode tags plus the quoted text in-between. And on Friendica and all its descendants, you don't work with a WYSIWYG editor by default, but you have to get your hands dirty on raw markup code.

You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

Again, probably not if someone on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks quote-posts you.

And definitely not if someone on Friendica or one of its descendants quote-posts you.

The difference is that a quote-post on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks is actually a reference to the original. On Friendica and its descendants, a quote-post is an automatically generated dumb copy of the original.

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@toolbear#🪧 From an outside-of-Mastodon point of view (I'm posting this from Hubzilla which is very, very much not like Mastodon), I can see schisms through the Fediverse happen quite easily.

For example:

• One side: Mastodon fundamentalists who want to enforce the Mastodon culture and the Mastodon "rules" (both as established by the first wave of Twitter refugees in the mid-2010s, based solely on Mastodon 3.x and completely ignoring the rest of the Fediverse) all over the whole Fediverse. And everything that doesn't comply must be defederated.
• The other side: Places that can do the same as Mastodon, but that aren't Mastodon, and that have their very own culture, not to mention features which are deeply engrained in their culture, but forbidden in Mastodon's culture. Pleroma and its forks. Misskey and its forks, fork-forks, fork-fork-rewrites etc. Friendica and its family tree. And so forth.

Or, although this may become obsolete:

• One side: Those on Mastodon who don't want to have quote-posts in the Fediverse.
• The other side: Again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon while capable of doing Mastodon things, because it all does have quote-posts right now.

A variant that's more likely to happen soon:

• One side: Mastodon, full stop. It has introduced quote-posts. It has also introduced a quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch. This switch, however, is proprietary, non-standard and completely incompatible with the rest of the Fediverse.
  On top of this, as demanded in that one quote-post feature request, there's a new rule for all Mastodon instances: Any and all Fediverse instances which "circumvent" Mastodon's quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch to quote-post Mastodon toots must be regarded "rogue" and Fediblocked.
• On the other side: Once again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon, but that can do what Mastodon can do. Once again, it can quote-post right now. It can also quote-post Mastodon toots right now. And it won't know that proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-only opt-in or opt-out. So it can quote-post any and all Mastodon toots with zero resistance.

The logical result: All Mastodon instances must immediately block all instances of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, CherryPick, Sharkey, Catodon, Neko, Meisskey, Tanukey, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. All instances of all of these have quote-posts. They can all quote-post Mastodon toots. And when Mastodon introduces the opt-in or opt-out switch, they won't know that switch. And what they don't know, they can't heed. So they'll still be able to quote-post any and all Mastodon toots, completely regardless (and oblivious) of opt-in or opt-out status.

This, however, is against the new rule that states that all instances that can quote-post toots that shall not be quote-posted must be blocked. Which applies to all of them. Thus, all of them, every last one of them, must be defederated.

If properly carried out, this would fully separate several dozen entire Fediverse server applications from Mastodon. The only reason why these server applications won't be fully separated is because it's a game of whack-a-mole. Mastodon can't defederate entire server applications by user agent (this is possible and actually implemented on both (streams) and Forte), so server applications have to be defederated instance by instance.

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@Lasse Gismo - 🇮🇱🇺🇦🇸🇩 If they notice.

Thing is: If someone on Pleroma, Akkoma, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts someone else, that someone else is notified as if they've been mentioned. If they're notified when they're mentioned by a non-contact out of the blue, that is. Mods might not notice.

If someone on Misskey or any of its various still active forks and fork-forks quote-posts someone else, that someone else is not notified, and neither are any mods unless they happen upon the quote-post.

Also, nobody and nothing on Mastodon can prevent anybody outside of Mastodon from quote-posting anyone on Mastodon. And there's a whole lot outside of Mastodon that can and will always be able to quote-post Mastodon toots with zero resistance. See my start post in this thread for 18 server apps that can do that.

However, this much should be said: Friendica has had quote-posts for over 14 years. Hubzilla has had quote-posts for, technically speaking, almost 13 years. And never in all these years have quote-posts been used on either to harass anyone on Friendica, on Hubzilla, on Mastodon or elsewhere.

Sounds hard to believe for people who only know Twitter and Mastodon, I know. But Friendica and Hubzilla aren't almost entirely populated by people who came from Twitter. They aren't Twitter alternatives anyway. Friendica is a Facebook alternative, and Hubzilla is a Facebook alternative on coke and steroids. Both have a totally, completely different culture from Twitter as well as from Mastodon, both early Mastodon and today's Mastodon. There is no influence from Twitter on them whatsoever.

In fact, until Hubzilla 9.0 which came out this year, Hubzilla did not even have repeats (= retweets = boosts). It had always used quote-posts (= shared posts in Hubzilla lingo) for this purpose.

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