#fediversemeta — Public Fediverse posts

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Hyblon  :cv_yellow: Also, it seems like you're using Mastodon on a phone with the official Mastodon app.

However, unlike on commercial services, Mastodon's official app is not the one fully featured reference app. It's actually just about the worst Mastodon app. It only exists so that Mastodon newbies can start by loading an app named "Mastodon" from the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store.

It's also the only Mastodon app that can only show long posts at their full length. All third-party apps roll long posts in.

If you're on an iPhone, check @Mona app, @IceCubesApp or @Ivory by Tapbots :emoji_wink:.

If you're on Android, check @Tusky or @Fedilab.

You'll probably discover all-new features of which you didn't know that Mastodon has them.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #MastodonApp #MastodonApps #iOS #iOSApp #iOSApps #iPhone #iPhoneApp #iPhoneApps #Android #AndroidApp #AndroidApps #MonaApp #IceCubesApp #IvoryApp #Tusky #TuskyApp #Fedilab #FedilabApp

@Pawlicker About "reply gating": This, or something similar, has been a standard feature at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte from the get-go, i.e. from their respective creation on. Hubzilla has had it since 2012. All three rely heavily on permissions for anything and everything. They can make themselves and each other hide the reply button. When someone wants to comment from Mastodon or something else that doesn't understand these permissions, these three simply reject unpermitted comments before they even reach the inbox.

On Hubzilla, the channel-wide permission to comment also includes a permission to like or dislike something. I can generally allow

• only myself
• only certain contacts
• only my contacts
• only my contacts plus those with an unapproved contact request
• anyone on the same Hubzilla hub as me
• anyone on Hubzilla (strangely, this does exclude (streams) channels)
• anyone in the Fediverse
• anyone anywhere on the Web, even without a Fediverse account

to comment on my posts.

In addition, I can turn comments on and off for specific posts. Mind you, if it's a reply, it isn't a post, it's a comment, and I've got no control over it.

On (streams) and Forte, the channel-wide permission to comment is uncoupled from the permission to like or dislike. The channel-wide options are

• only myself plus certain contacts
• only my contacts
• anyone in the Fediverse
• anyone anywhere on the Web, even without a Fediverse account

On top of that, I can generally allow comments only for a certain number of days.

Again, I can turn comments on and off for specific posts. But I can also only allow my contacts to comment on specific posts, and I can define until when comments are allowed on specific posts.

In all three cases, I can even choose to preview technically unpermitted comments and then decide whether I allow or reject them, one by one.

In other words, where I am (I'm commenting from Hubzilla), this not only has been available for longer than Mastodon has even existed, but it's deeply engrained into the culture.

About "quote gating": Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte have all always (in Friendica's case, since 2010) had both actual quotes like on bulletin-board forums (remember the 2000s when forums were all the rage?) and Twitter-quote-tweet-style quote-posts (which literally were the only way for them to share content before they adopted Twitter-retweet-style forwarding).

The former obviously only works in comments. Whether or not it's allowed is defined by whether or not comments are allowed.

The latter doesn't have any permission setting, not even on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte with the most advanced permissions systems in the whole Fediverse. That's because their inventor says that it's technologically impossible to keep people from forwarding or sharing your content in separate posts.

If you disallow actual quote-posts, people can still copy-paste the content of your post into a new post. Unlike when you're actually being quote-posted, you won't even notice unless they mention you. Mind you, while an estimated 60% of all Mastodon users are on iPhones, and another estimated 39% are on Android phones, 100% of all Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte users are on desktop or laptop computers where copy-paste is easy-peasy. It's pretty much impossible to disallow copy-paste, and even if it was, people would resort to screenshots.

You don't want people to quote-post your stuff? Then don't make it public. Once it's public, it's out there, and anyone can do with it whatever they please.

Nobody really misses an actual permission for quote-posts. That's also because Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte aren't primarily a home for Twitter refugees. In fact, neither of them can even understand the ruckus about quote-posts on Mastodon, and neither can Friendica users. Hardly any of them have been on Twitter at any point in the 2020s. There's no influence of Twitter culture anywhere to be found.

The typical path into Hubzilla is not Twitter > Musk buys Twitter > Mastodon > Hubzilla. Not even Twitter > Musk buys Twitter > Mastodon > Friendica > Hubzilla. It's Facebook > diaspora* > Friendica > Hubzilla. Or Facebook > Google+ > diaspora* > Friendica > Hubzilla. The typical path into (streams) is the same, but one step further beyond Hubzilla. The typical path into Forte is the same as into (streams), but another step further beyond (streams).

About the iPhone: Whether or not the iPhone is a status symbol depends on where you are.

In the USA, the iPhone is the Levi's jeans of phones. It's the Ford F-150 of phones. The allegedly all-American American phone. Most importantly, it's what everyone has.

Over here in Germany, the iPhone is the higher-class Mercedes-Benz of phones. The iPhone 15 Pro is the 2026 Mercedes-Benz-AMG E 53 of phones. The iPhone 15 Pro Max is the 2026 Mercedes-Benz-AMG S 63 E Performance of phones, slammed suspensions, standing on polished 22" Lexani wheels, muffler cut-outs always open. In American terms, it's the 2026 Cadillac Escalade-V of phones, gold-foiled, with air-ride, standing on gold-plated 26" Bellagio spinnaz. The phone made for peacocking in rap music video clips. It's the Rolex of phones. For women, it's the genuine Prada or Fendi or Louis Vuitton handbag of phones.

Well, and then there's the iPhone 4S with the cracked screen. It's the 1995 Mercedes-Benz E-Class of phones. Old, worn out, four-banger engine, often rusty as hell, may have been stolen at some point, but it's cheap. And most importantly, it's still a Benz, and it's a real Benz as opposed to "Baby Benz" C-Class and smaller. The Benz for those who need a Benz to show their folks how much of a winner they are, but who can't really afford one.

Over here, the Samsung Galaxy S is the VW Golf of phones. The Americans' Ford F-150 of phones. It's what everyone has. It's the no-brainer that you buy when you don't know what to buy, so you buy what everyone buys. Still, it's expensive for what it does. But all the other brands are akin to "cheap imports" from, what, France or Italy or Japan or Korea or Romania.

The choice of the hardcore nerds in the homeland of Chaos Computer Club and Chaos Communication Congress is never something that can only run stock Android. It's an iPhone even less. They rather buy a Google Pixel, and the first thing they do is root it immediately and install GrapheneOS. Or if they refuse to buy something from Google and/or run a Google OS (de-Googled or not), they acquire a Sony Experia, root it and install SailfishOS. Or they go straight for a Fairphone or even the new Jolla Phone or something like that. I'm pretty sure many want a true successor to the Nokia N900.

If Google locks Android down, these nerds won't flock to Apple. Some may switch to SailfishOS which, on officially supported phones, has the Aliendalvik compatibility layer for Android apps, but only with F-Droid and neither with the Google Play Store proper nor with Micro-G. Many more will go entirely elsewhere like PostmarketOS or PureOS, also seeing as SailfishOS is payware that's half proprietary and closed-source. Or they'll forgo mobile phones entirely or keep old phones alive for as long as they can.

About iOS apps: I guess the notion that the Fediverse equals Mastodon, something that the majorty of Mastodon users believe, is particularly wide-spread among iPhone users. And if it isn't only Mastodon, it doesn't extend beyond Mastodon, Pixelfed and PeerTube. Excluding Pixelfed and PeerTube, if Mastodon can't do it, the Fediverse as a whole can't. I mean, on top of the fact that apps made for Mastodon generally only support Mastodon features because the Mastodon Client API only supports Mastodon features, and the Mastodon Client API is all that these apps understand.

It's particularly bad for Friendica users. If they're on Android, they may opt for a Mastodon app. There are several Android apps for Mastodon that have been reported to work with Friendica. Or they may want to try one of the dedicated Friendica apps which are at various levels of unfinished. Or they may choose the middle-ground and use Fedilab.

But if they're on an iPhone, they'll discover that literally not even a single Mastodon iOS app works with Friendica. There is no Fedilab. And the iOS version of RaccoonForFriendica requires Test Flight, and it's probably even more incomplete than the Android version.

In general, iPhone apps are rarely developed for the same reasons as Android apps. Most Android Fediverse apps are open-source and under a free license, and they're also or exclusively available on F-Droid. They're developed by FLOSS enthusiasts/idealists. However, these people don't develop for iOS. That's because the Apple App Store is inherently hostile towards free software, and it's completely incompatible with all versions of the GNU General Public License.

Also, as you've already pointed out, you absolutely need a Mac to develop iOS apps. But if someone releases FLOSS apps on F-Droid, you can bet they're running GNU/Linux at home (more often Arch or a derivative than you may think), and they won't touch any corporate-made, closed-source OS with a 10-foot barge pole. They may even steer clear of anything where Novell, Red Hat or Canonical is involved.

With hobbyist FLOSS enthusiasts out of the way of developing iPhone apps, this is only ever done by those who do it for money. Or fame and social status (same reason why they always have a fairly new iPhone). Or both. But then they discovered that the Fediverse, to them at least, is a hive of radical leftist tech nerds whom you can't impress with expensive bling-bling from big American gigacorps. They failed to gather the umpteen thousand followers they wanted. So they left for greener pastures: Bluesky. Or they even went back to their hundreds of thousands of followers on 𝕏. Doing so, they also abandoned their iPhone app development.

By the way, none of this affects Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. For starters, just like Friendica, all four can be installed as Progressive Web Apps. However, at least in the case of these three, there is no alternative to the Web interface whatsoever. There's an old Android app for Hubzilla named Nomad, but it's only available on F-Droid, it hasn't been worked on since December, 2019, it only runs on older Android versions and Aliendalvik, and it's only a wrapper for the Web interface anyway. For (streams) and Forte, there's zilch.

There has been some talk about developing a native mobile Hubzilla app. It's kind of difficult, though. Generally, Hubzilla users use Hubzilla on desktop OS's. They can't imagine people daily-driving phones as their main or only end-user devices, so they think that a Hubzilla app only needs the features one would need when out and about because everyone will go back to their desktop or laptop computers anyway when they're back home.

In reality, many users of the Hubzilla app will only use that app. They won't use Hubzilla's Web interface in a browser. They won't use it on a desktop or laptop computer either, usually because they simply don't have one. They'll resort to that app for everything. In fact, they'll perceive Hubzilla as a phone app rather than a Fediverse server application. This means that a Hubzilla mobile app will inevitably have to cover all of Hubzilla's features except those that really don't make sense in a phone app (e.g. the PDL editor). But a fully-featured Hubzilla app would be so complex, it'd make infamous K-9 Mail pale in comparison.

Licensing is the least problem here. Hubzilla and Forte are released under the MIT license, (streams) was released into the public domain. So I guess putting an app for either of them under the MIT license would be an option, one that's fairly compatible with the Apple App Store even. It's just that this app would be bound to be an absolute monster.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #ReplyControl #Permissions #MastodonApp #MastodonApps #FediverseApp #FediverseApps #iOS #iOSApp #iOSApps #iPhone #iPhoneApp #iPhoneApps #Android #AndroidApp #AndroidApps

@Tom Cole It is available everywhere AFAIK.

But: The convenient black "Alt" button in the corner is exclusive to Mastodon's Web interface plus maybe a few phone apps that have adopted it since. Technically speaking, a UI element to show alt-texts is completely unnecessary because alt-text is only a stand-in for the image itself, for when the image cannot be seen for whichever reason. The alt-text as an extra source of information is a purely Mastodon thing where people use it to expand their meagre 500-character limit by up to another 6,000 characters.

Just about everywhere else in the Fediverse, there is no button for showing alt-texts. That's also because there's nowhere in the Fediverse where people really need alt-texts to write around their tiny character limits, so that alt-texts can be what alt-texts are literally everywhere outside of Mastodon: a stand-in for the image and nothing more than that.

The normal way in the Fediverse (and other social networks and social media) for sighted people to access an alt-text is by moving the mouse cursor upon the image and hovering in there, and the alt-text pops up. The alt-text is the title tag at the same time. This has been the case on Mastodon before, I think, version 4.4 as well. I guess Mastodon changed that because just about everyone on Mastodon is on phones, and you don't have a mouse cursor on a phone, so you have to long-press on the image which is a not very intuitive thing to do.

Here on Hubzilla where I'm commenting from right now, the alt-text still is the title tag as well. In order to read an alt-text, the mouse cursor has to be hovered above the image. And Hubzilla has no alternative to its Web interface, only different themes for the Web interface. There is no phone app, at least none worth speaking of.

Also, on Hubzilla, we don't need to use alt-texts to write around character limits. Our character limit is 16,777,215, and that's the maximum size of the database field for the message text. Actually, on Hubzilla, alt-texts are included in these over 16 million characters as opposed to separate data fields. Thus, sighted Hubzilla users have no use for alt-texts whatsoever. Thus, there's no reason to make opening alt-texts easier (as if that was Hubzilla's only UI issue). Thus, there's no "Alt" button, and there will never be one.

It's just about the same just about everywhere else from Misskey (hard-coded 3,000 characters) to Akkoma (configurable 5,000 characters) to Friendica (same limit as Hubzilla) to (streams) and Forte (over 24 million characters) to pure long-form blogging stuff like WordPress, Ghost, Write Freely and Plume.

Now I ask you: What are people supposed to do whose both hands had to be amputated due to some accident? Or people with deformed hands who can neither use a smartphone nor a computer mouse nor a trackball nor any other pointing device on a computer? Who operate their computer with e.g. a headpointer, a plastic stick strapped to their forehead with which they poke the keys on their computer? And who are in the Fediverse, but not on Mastodon? How are they supposed to open an alt-text with only a keyboard as an input device?

Or how about people with a severe tremor? Who have big troubles moving a mouse cursor over an image and then keeping it there because it keeps slipping away? Who probably operate their computers via the keyboard and only the keyboard, too?

Or, a wholly different example, how about those who use Linux with a super-minimalist, keyboard-only tiling window manager? Who do have a GUI (albeit a very frugal one), who do use graphical Web browsers, but who deliberately, intentionaly, do not have any kind of pointing device? Who, nonetheless, are ten times faster with only keyboard shortcuts than you and me are with a mouse? How are they supposed to move a mouse cursor over an image without a mouse?

This is something that many Mastodon users don't know:

• Not all Fediverse frontends have an "Alt" button.
• "Alt" buttons make no sense in the non-Mastodon Fediverse. In the non-Mastodon Fediverse, the character limits are so high that nobody has to use alt-texts to write around them. Expanding the character limit with alt-texts is a 100% Mastodon-only thing that simply doesn't translate to places with thousands or millions of characters and never will.
• There are other disabilities out there than visual impairments and neurodivergence. Even in the Fediverse.
• Not everyone in the Fediverse uses a pointing device of whichever sorts.

Oh, and there's one more thing: Misskey and its various forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS, CherryPick etc.) all have a character limit of 512 for alt-texts. They should enforce it the same way as Mastodon enforces its 1,500-character limit for alt-texts, namely by truncating longer alt-texts. This is bad enough already.

However, they all have the same nasty bug that still hasn't been fixed yet AFAIK: Instead of truncating longer alt-texts, they delete them. So if you describe your image in an alt-text of more than 512 characters, users on Misskey, Sharkey & Co. will never know that your image is supposed to have an alt-text. Instead, they may think that you were too lazy to describe your image. And if you use the alt-text to explain your image in over 512 characters, this explanation will never reach users on Misskey, Sharkey & Co.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #i3 #i3wm #Disability #A11y #Accessibility

@jeSuisatire  neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Nein, das ist einfach nur der krasse Unterschied in Technologie und Kultur zwischen Mastodon und Hubzilla.

Auf Mastodon wollen viele am liebsten ein reines Mastodon-Fediverse haben. Auch weil sie glauben, sie hätten das mal gehabt.

Die Hubzilla-Community dagegen stammt von der Friendica-Community ab und hat von ihr zu einem großen Teil die Attitüde geerbt, sich mit allen möglichen und unmöglichen anderen Netzen verbinden zu wollen.

Viele Mastodon-Nutzer würden am liebsten sogar alle Mastodon-Server aus ihrer Timeline verbannen, die über 500 Zeichen erlauben. Alles, was nicht Mastodon ist, schon mal erst recht.

Hubzilla-Nutzer schalten im krassen Gegensatz dazu ActivityPub an, um sich dann kreuz und quer über das ganze Fediverse zu verbinden. Und dann schalten sie auch noch diaspora* an, um sich damit auch noch zu verbinden. Sie bewegen sich in drei Netzwerken mit drei Protokollen gleichzeitig (Grid mit Zot6, diaspora*, Fediverse mit ActivityPub) ohne Berührungsängste. In vier Netzwerken mit vier Protokollen, wenn die OStatus-basierte Federation nicht im ActivityPub-basierten Fediverse aufgegangen wäre. Und dann abonnieren sie RSS- und Atom-Feeds.

Dem Mastodon-Nutzer geht der Hut hoch, wenn irgendwas in seiner Timeline von den Mastodon-Standards abweicht.

Dem Hubzilla-Nutzer geht das Herz auf, wenn seine Autovervollständigung Akteure mit drei verschiedenen Protokollen gleichzeitig anzeigt.

CC: @SigmundFreudsBartender @Katharina Nocun

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla #diaspora* #Fediverse #Föderation

@Arnan It doesn't fit the timelines in the official Mastodon phone app. Which has the only Fediverse user interface out there that cannot fold longer posts in.

The Mastodon Web UI can do that. All third-party Mastodon apps can do that. The Web UIs of just about the whole rest of the Fediverse from Pleroma and Misskey to Friendica and Hubzilla can do that. Phone apps for stuff that isn't Mastodon can do that.

Only the haphazardly developed official Mastodon app can't do that because it's geared towards a Fediverse with only 500 characters, a Fediverse of a kind that has never existed.

Mastodon is not the reference implementation of the Fediverse. And the official Mastodon app is not the reference implementation of Mastodon apps, much less of Fediverse apps. It only exists for there to be something official named "Mastodon" in the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store.

Just because Mastodon tossed out a lack-lustre app in 2022 for those who absolutely need something named "Mastodon" on their phones to access the Fediverse, doesn't mean that Fediverse software that has existed for almost six years longer than Mastodon and twelve years longer than that app must adapt to the existence of that app and cut down its character limit from 16,777,215 to 500 for all those who can't use Mastodon through something with another name on it than "Mastodon".

By the way: Mastodon's way of cutting longer posts up into tiny chunks of no more than 500 characters goes onto the nerves of users of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, Sharkey, CherryPick, GoToSocial, snac, Hollo, Socialhome, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte and others. But they are not allowed to complain about that, much less tell Mastodon users who do that to move someplace that offers them more characters.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #MastodonApp #MastodonApps #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters

@Droid Boy :coolified: @Der Achte Schwabe @Sascha Pallenberg 🇹🇼 ♻️ ⚡ Die offizielle Mastodon-App ist so ziemlich die schlechteste und unterausgestattetste Mastodon-App, die es überhaupt gibt.

Viele glauben, die sei die Referenz-App, weil es ja die offizielle App ist und offizielle Apps ja eigentlich immer fully-featured sind. Tatsächlich ist sie aber eine Verlegenheitslösung, damit es im Apple App Store und im Google Play Store überhaupt eine offizielle App namens "Mastodon" gibt, weil 99% der Twitter-Umsteiger erstmal danach suchen werden.

Was die nicht kann?

Beispiel: Beinahe jedes Fediverse-Frontend da draußen rollt lange Inhalte standardmäßig ein, und dann kann man sie händisch wieder ausrollen. Außer superminimalistischen "Damit es überhaupt eine Weboberfläche gibt"-Behelfs-Weboberflächen von superminimalistischen Serveranwendungen ist die offizielle Mastodon-App das einzige Frontend, das das nicht kann. Die ist gebaut worden in der Annahme, daß es im Fediverse nur Inhalte mit maximal 500 Zeichen gibt.

Dieses Manko in der offiziellen Mastodon-App ist wahrscheinlich einer der Hauptgründe, warum viele Mastodon-Nutzer sich über "lange Posts" mit über 500 Zeichen aufregen.

Ich frage mich gerade, ob sie in der Lage ist, Textformatierung anzuzeigen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Sven222 Kommt drauf an.

Misskey und die Forkeys zeigen an, von wo ein Beitrag kommt. Friendica zeigt es an. (streams) und Forte zeigen es an.

Hubzilla zeigt es nicht an, aber Hubzilla hat noch ganz andere Baustellen, gerade auch in der Weboberfläche.

Mastodon zeigt es auch nicht an. Und so gehen die meisten Mastodon-Nutzer bei jedem Beitrag von einem nativen Mastodon-Tröt aus. Selbst wenn etwas so wie das hier eigentlich nur zu offensichtlich gar nicht von Mastodon stammen kann, glauben wahrscheinlich viele trotzdem an irgendeine "gehackte", frisierte Mastodon-Instanz.

Ein Unterschied ist ja auch noch: Gerade Friendica- und Hubzilla-Nutzer sind es ja gewohnt, sich in alle möglichen und unmöglichen Richtungen zu verbinden, zumal die allermeisten Hubzilla-Nutzer von Friendica kommen. Und das meint nicht nur das ActivityPub-basierte Fediverse, sondern z. B. auch mal diaspora* oder RSS-/Atom-Feeds oder Tumblr oder jüngererdings auf Friendica auch mal Bluesky. In den frühen 2010ern waren die populärsten öffentlichen Friendica-Nodes die mit Facebook-Anbindung.

Ein Grund, warum (streams) und Forte so unpopulär sind, ist, weil sie eigentlich keine Zielgruppe außerhalb von Hubzilla haben, aber die Hubzilla-Nutzerschaft auf Hubzillas Features überwiegend nicht verzichten will. Dazu zählen auch die diaspora*-Verbindung und der Feed-Aggregator; beides gibt's auf (streams) und Forte nicht mehr. Forte versteht ja überhaupt nur noch ActivityPub und ist daher auch blind für Hubzilla- und (streams)-Kanäle, wo ActivityPub aus ist.

Der Friendica-Veteran hat verinnerlicht: "Wenn es existiert, kann ich mich damit verbinden."

99,99% der Mastodon-Nutzer lernen dagegen Mastodon und das Fediverse als in sich geschlossenes reines Mastodon-Netzwerk kennen ohne jegliche Verbindung nach woanders. Entweder ist das ihnen gegenüber bei der Einladung impliziert worden, oder es ist ihnen direktweg so gesagt worden. Und daran gewöhnen sie sich dann auch.

PeerTube, Pixelfed und dergleichen lernen sie dann irgendwann kennen als sowas wie Add-ons für Mastodon, also ein an Mastodon drangeklebtes YouTube, ein an Mastodon drangeklebtes Instagram usw. Viele von denen scheißen sich komplett ein, wenn sie erfahren, daß es auch noch andere Mikroblogging- und/oder Social-Networking-Sachen im Fediverse gibt und die dann auch mit Mastodon verbunden sind, aber eben nicht nachträglich an Mastodon drangeklebt.

CC: @Regezi

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #PeerTube #Pixelfed #MastodonZentrizität #MastodonNormativiät #Föderation

@glyn There is no spec for nomadic identity itself AFAIK. In the Zot6 and Nomad protocols, it simply is part of the protocols.

What there is is limited to:

• the specification of the Zot6 protocol as implemented in Hubzilla
• the specification of the Nomad protocol (would be Zot12 if it was still compatible with Zot6) as implemented in (streams)
• ActivityPub FEPs, especially FEP-ef61 Portable Objects which implements Decentralized Identifiers as suggested by the W3C

Nomadic identity via ActivityPub is still very experimental and far from finalised. According to Mike Macgirvin, it is implemented in the streams repository and at least theoretically operational. But of the few (streams) users, nobody makes use of it, also because Nomad, which itself provides nomadic identity, is still (streams)' primary protocol whereas ActivityPub is optional. So when a (streams) channel is cloned, it's always cloned via Nomad.

His recent fork of the streams repository, a project named Forte, is basically (streams) without Nomad and Zot6 support, entirely based on ActivityPub, and thus the first publicly available ActivityPub-based Fediverse server software with nomadic identity.

But Forte itself is still seen as experimental. Even of the few (streams) users, nobody dares to test-drive it, also to let Mike go on tinkering with it without having to take care of support for instance admins or even users. Since Mike is officially retired and has slowed down his software development dramatically, things will probably stay this way for quite a long time. In fact, Mike himself is still running his own channels on (streams), so there isn't a single Forte server, much less channel, in productive use.

Last but not least, there is Mitra by @silverpill, the only Fediverse software not developed by Mike Macgirvin that is working on implementing nomadic identity. FEP-ef61 is implemented in release code, but full-blown nomadic identity only exists in a non-public development branch.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #DecentralizedIdentity #DecentralisedIdentity #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #FEP_ef61 #Zot #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Mitra

@Ben Werdmuller What Bluesky is planning to do with the AT protocol looks like nomadic identity as ordered from Temu.

And nomadic identity is not a vague concept. It isn't futuristic technology either. It has been reality in the Fediverse for longer than Mastodon has been around. It was invented by @Mike Macgirvin ?️ in 2011 and then implemented in his own Zot protocol. Zot, in turn, was first implemented in 2012 in a project named Red, later the Red Matrix, known since 2015 as Hubzilla. And almost everything that Mike has made after Hubzilla had or still has nomadic identity implemented.

I'm writing to you from Hubzilla right now, so yes, it's very much part of the Fediverse. It's a rock-solid daily driver with a stable release (9.4.3).

Nomadic identity does not do away with a domain being part of your ID. What it does away with is the connection between account and identity and the connection between server and identity.

Nomadic identity means that your identity with everything that belongs to it (profile, posts, comments, DMs, connections, files, settings etc. etc. pp.) is no longer bound to any one Fediverse server. It can exist on multiple servers simultaneously. Not as dumb copies, but as clones. Bidirectional, live, hot backups in near-real-time.

Your identity always has one main instance which also lends the domain name. In addition, it can have one or multiple copies on different servers of your choice. Your accounts only serve to grant you access to the instances of your identity on a specific server. The main instance and the clones are constantly sync'd against each other in both directions. For example, after I've sent this comment, it was mirrored over to my clone.

Notice how I've written "bidirectional". For I can also log into my clone and use it just the same as my main instance. This is useful for when the server with my main instance on it is offline. When it comes back online, everything that has happened on my clone in the meantime is being sync'd to the main instance.

Granted, Mastodon and most of the rest of the Fediverse don't understand nomadic identity. When I post from my clone, they take my clone as an independent account with the ID [email protected]. But Hubzilla and (streams) do understand nomadic identity. Whatever comes from my clone, they'll correctly identify as being sent by [email protected] in spite of not coming from hub.netzgemeinde.eu.

Even "moving instances" is greatly facilitated. For example, if the server with the main instance of my channel shuts down permanently, I can make my clone my new main instance. That's easy-peasy: two mouse clicks and some 15 minutes of letting things settle, also because Hubzilla will have to go around and change all my connections from [email protected] to [email protected]. On the remote side, on people's Hubzilla and (streams) servers.

You've read that right: If you move, nomadic identity makes your nomadic followers automatically follow you at your new home. What's beyond science-fiction on Mastodon has been daily-driven reality on Hubzilla since its inception in 2015.

While nomadic identity currently only has stable support via Mike's Zot and Nomad protocols and on Hubzilla and (streams), its implementation using only ActivityPub has been in the making since last year.

CC: @glyn

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #DecentralizedIdentity #DecentralisedIdentity #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams)

@Strypey A few more details:

* FEP-ef61: Portable Objects

https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/ef61/fep-ef61.md

Invented in, I think, 2023 by @silverpill for Mitra (based on ActivityPub). Currently implemented there and in @Mike Macgirvin ?️'s streams repository and Forte. Part of the plan to introduce almost Nomad-level, but cross-project nomadic identity to ActivityPub.

* FEP-61cf: The OpenWebAuth Protocol

https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/61cf/fep-61cf.md

Invented in 2018 by Mike Macgirvin for Zap (Zot6 development platform; discontinued 2022). Backported to Hubzilla in 2020. Full server-side and client-side implementation only in Hubzilla (based on Zot6, also supports ActivityPub etc.), (streams) (based on Nomad, also supports Zot6 and ActivityPub) and Forte (based on ActivityPub). Friendica has a client-side implementation. Mastodon has a client-side implementation pull request that has to be merged eventually.

CC: @Laurens Hof

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Friendica #Hubzilla #Zap #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #ActivityPub #FEP #FEP_ef61 #FEP_61cf #DecentralizedIdentity #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #SingleSignOn

@glyn Decentralised identity has been available for longer than Mastodon, let alone ActivityPub. Only that it is known as "nomadic identity" here.

It was first implemented by Friendica creator @Mike Macgirvin ?️ in the Zot protocol in 2011 and in a Friendica fork named Red in 2012, later renamed into the Red Matrix, eventually reworked and renamed into Hubzilla in 2015.

Proof: This Hubzilla channel of mine actually simultaneously resides on two servers.

(Almost) everything that Mike has made afterwards, forks and forks of forks of Hubzilla, used to have or still have nomadic identity implemented.

His streams repository contains a fork of a fork... of Hubzilla that intentionally has no name, and that offers nomadic identity via the Nomad protocol with better compatibility with non-nomadic ActivityPub. In July, it had decentralised IDs as per FEP-ef61 (see also here) implemented, a first step by Mike to fully implement nomadic identity in ActivityPub.

Forte, Mike's most recent fork from August, had all support for Nomad and Zot6 removed and only uses ActivityPub anymore while still offering nomadic identity. To my best knowledge, however, it has yet to be declared stable enough to be daily-driven, and it has no public instances.

Other than all this, a non-public development version of @silverpill's Mitra has nomadic identity via ActivityPub in development. I'm not sure whether FEP-ef61 is implemented in the release version yet. It's the only Fediverse project aiming to implement nomadic identity which Mike Macgirvin has nothing directly to do with.

The ultimate goal is to be able to clone a Fediverse identity across project borders. Only considering stable releases, it's currently only possible to clone Hubzilla channels within Hubzilla, using Zot6, or (streams) channels within (streams), using Nomad.

Unfortunately, Mike has officially retired from Fediverse development and only occasionally submits code to the streams repository and Forte anymore.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #DecentralizedIdentity #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #FEP_ef61 #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Mitra

Whenever someone spells it "Mastadon", I always imagine them pronouncing it with a thick Southern drawl.

[Bluegrass intensifies]

"Now lis'n hayur, y'all, Ah done joined MAYYYASTADAHHHN!"

PSA: It's "MastOdon", not "MastAdon"!

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Y'all #MastodonNotMastadon