#fediversemeta — Public Fediverse posts

@sb  the chippy-choppy There won't be many left. Depending on how staunchly and extremely anti-AI you and (aspiring) server admins are, there won't be any left. Because it's technically impossible to set up a Fediverse server with absolutely no AI code underneath whatsoever.

The Linux mainline kernel itself contains AI code now. It's officially allowed as long as it's disclosed as such. Thus, you will have to avoid literally all servers running on Linux.

https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html

https://www.neowin.net/news/linus-torvalds-declares-massive-ai-fueled-code-surges-as-the-new-normal-for-linux/

NetBSD has very strict rules regarding AI-generated code. But it doesn't rule AI-generated code out out of principle because it's AI-generated; it only wants to be safe that nothing that's actually GPL-licensed is slipped in. So, if you're an 100%, ultra-hardcode anti-AI extremist, avoid what few servers run on NetBSD.

https://www.netbsd.org/developers/commit-guidelines.html

OpenBSD contains AI-generated code, too. And it has no official stance regarding it. So servers running on OpenBSD are taboo, too.

https://www.osnews.com/story/144935/openbsd-and-slopcode-raindrop-to-a-torrent/

FreeBSD has no stance on AI whatsoever that I could find. However, apparently, the FreeBSD community loves to integrate Claude Code into their systems for automation purposes:

https://aumont.fr/posts/claude-code-freebsd/

https://discoverbsd.com/p/8a7660c31b

But you'll also have to look at the userland, the Web server, the database driver etc.

MariaDB allows AI code. You can safely assume that all MySQL databases on Web servers out there are actually powered by MariaDB.

https://mariadb.org/governance/governance-ai-policy/

Oracle MySQL can integrate AI, so it's safe to assume it contains AI-generated code.

https://blogs.oracle.com/mysql/announcing-mysql-ai

PostgreSQL probably allows AI code, too. There are even tools for it.

https://github.com/timescale/pg-aiguide

SQLite is very popular amongst AI users while not having any rules on AI-generated code. Assume it to be tainted.

This leaves you with only one choice: Self-hosting a personal, single-user snac2 server because snac2 doesn't need any database whatsoever. In fact, snac2 is staunchly against AI. And it runs on NetBSD.

https://codeberg.org/grunfink/snac2

But then there's the Web server. Apache may allow AI-generated code if it has been reviewed and made sure that it does not contain anything that's incompatible with the Apache-2.0 license.

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

nginx welcomes AI and advertises itself as ready for AI, and it takes no anti-AI-code stance. It's most likely already tainted.

https://www.f5.com/de_de/products/nginx.

This basically leaves you with no Web server guaranteed to be 100% free from AI-generated code to run snac2 on. But that doesn't matter because it's impossible to build a Web server devoid of any AI code to install snac2 on.

By the way: Mastodon itself explicitly allows AI code if it's disclosed as such, and if its contributor understands it.

https://github.com/mastodon/.github/blob/main/AI_POLICY.md

In other words, next to all Mastodon servers are running

• AI-generated Mastodon code
• on an AI-generated Web server
• with an AI-generated database driver
• on an AI-generated operating system kernel

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Linux #FreeBSD #OpenBSD #NetBSD #Apache #nginx #MySQL #MariaDB #PostgreSQL #SQLite #Mastodon #snac2 #AI #LLM #LLMs #GenAI #NoAI #AntiAI #AntiLLM

@sb  the chippy-choppy There won't be many left. Depending on how staunchly and extremely anti-AI you and (aspiring) server admins are, there won't be any left. Because it's technically impossible to set up a Fediverse server with absolutely no AI code underneath whatsoever.

The Linux mainline kernel itself contains AI code now. It's officially allowed as long as it's disclosed as such. Thus, you will have to avoid literally all servers running on Linux.

https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html

https://www.neowin.net/news/linus-torvalds-declares-massive-ai-fueled-code-surges-as-the-new-normal-for-linux/

NetBSD has very strict rules regarding AI-generated code. But it doesn't rule AI-generated code out out of principle because it's AI-generated; it only wants to be safe that nothing that's actually GPL-licensed is slipped in. So, if you're an 100%, ultra-hardcode anti-AI extremist, avoid what few servers run on NetBSD.

https://www.netbsd.org/developers/commit-guidelines.html

OpenBSD contains AI-generated code, too. And it has no official stance regarding it. So servers running on OpenBSD are taboo, too.

https://www.osnews.com/story/144935/openbsd-and-slopcode-raindrop-to-a-torrent/

FreeBSD has no stance on AI whatsoever that I could find. However, apparently, the FreeBSD community loves to integrate Claude Code into their systems for automation purposes:

https://aumont.fr/posts/claude-code-freebsd/

https://discoverbsd.com/p/8a7660c31b

But you'll also have to look at the userland, the Web server, the database driver etc.

MariaDB allows AI code. You can safely assume that all MySQL databases on Web servers out there are actually powered by MariaDB.

https://mariadb.org/governance/governance-ai-policy/

Oracle MySQL can integrate AI, so it's safe to assume it contains AI-generated code.

https://blogs.oracle.com/mysql/announcing-mysql-ai

PostgreSQL probably allows AI code, too. There are even tools for it.

https://github.com/timescale/pg-aiguide

SQLite is very popular amongst AI users while not having any rules on AI-generated code. Assume it to be tainted.

This leaves you with only one choice: Self-hosting a personal, single-user snac2 server because snac2 doesn't need any database whatsoever. In fact, snac2 is staunchly against AI. And it runs on NetBSD.

https://codeberg.org/grunfink/snac2

But then there's the Web server. Apache may allow AI-generated code if it has been reviewed and made sure that it does not contain anything that's incompatible with the Apache-2.0 license.

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

nginx welcomes AI and advertises itself as ready for AI, and it takes no anti-AI-code stance. It's most likely already tainted.

https://www.f5.com/de_de/products/nginx.

This basically leaves you with no Web server guaranteed to be 100% free from AI-generated code to run snac2 on. But that doesn't matter because it's impossible to build a Web server devoid of any AI code to install snac2 on.

By the way: Mastodon itself explicitly allows AI code if it's disclosed as such, and if its contributor understands it.

https://github.com/mastodon/.github/blob/main/AI_POLICY.md

In other words, next to all Mastodon servers are running

• AI-generated Mastodon code
• on an AI-generated Web server
• with an AI-generated database driver
• on an AI-generated operating system kernel

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Linux #FreeBSD #OpenBSD #NetBSD #Apache #nginx #MySQL #MariaDB #PostgreSQL #SQLite #Mastodon #snac2 #AI #LLM #LLMs #GenAI #NoAI #AntiAI #AntiLLM

@sb  the chippy-choppy There won't be many left. Depending on how staunchly and extremely anti-AI you and (aspiring) server admins are, there won't be any left. Because it's technically impossible to set up a Fediverse server with absolutely no AI code underneath whatsoever.

The Linux mainline kernel itself contains AI code now. It's officially allowed as long as it's disclosed as such. Thus, you will have to avoid literally all servers running on Linux.

https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html

https://www.neowin.net/news/linus-torvalds-declares-massive-ai-fueled-code-surges-as-the-new-normal-for-linux/

NetBSD has very strict rules regarding AI-generated code. But it doesn't rule AI-generated code out out of principle because it's AI-generated; it only wants to be safe that nothing that's actually GPL-licensed is slipped in. So, if you're an 100%, ultra-hardcode anti-AI extremist, avoid what few servers run on NetBSD.

https://www.netbsd.org/developers/commit-guidelines.html

OpenBSD contains AI-generated code, too. And it has no official stance regarding it. So servers running on OpenBSD are taboo, too.

https://www.osnews.com/story/144935/openbsd-and-slopcode-raindrop-to-a-torrent/

FreeBSD has no stance on AI whatsoever that I could find. However, apparently, the FreeBSD community loves to integrate Claude Code into their systems for automation purposes:

https://aumont.fr/posts/claude-code-freebsd/

https://discoverbsd.com/p/8a7660c31b

But you'll also have to look at the userland, the Web server, the database driver etc.

MariaDB allows AI code. You can safely assume that all MySQL databases on Web servers out there are actually powered by MariaDB.

https://mariadb.org/governance/governance-ai-policy/

Oracle MySQL can integrate AI, so it's safe to assume it contains AI-generated code.

https://blogs.oracle.com/mysql/announcing-mysql-ai

PostgreSQL probably allows AI code, too. There are even tools for it.

https://github.com/timescale/pg-aiguide

SQLite is very popular amongst AI users while not having any rules on AI-generated code. Assume it to be tainted.

This leaves you with only one choice: Self-hosting a personal, single-user snac2 server because snac2 doesn't need any database whatsoever. In fact, snac2 is staunchly against AI. And it runs on NetBSD.

https://codeberg.org/grunfink/snac2

But then there's the Web server. Apache may allow AI-generated code if it has been reviewed and made sure that it does not contain anything that's incompatible with the Apache-2.0 license.

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

nginx welcomes AI and advertises itself as ready for AI, and it takes no anti-AI-code stance. It's most likely already tainted.

https://www.f5.com/de_de/products/nginx.

This basically leaves you with no Web server guaranteed to be 100% free from AI-generated code to run snac2 on. But that doesn't matter because it's impossible to build a Web server devoid of any AI code to install snac2 on.

By the way: Mastodon itself explicitly allows AI code if it's disclosed as such, and if its contributor understands it.

https://github.com/mastodon/.github/blob/main/AI_POLICY.md

In other words, next to all Mastodon servers are running

• AI-generated Mastodon code
• on an AI-generated Web server
• with an AI-generated database driver
• on an AI-generated operating system kernel

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Linux #FreeBSD #OpenBSD #NetBSD #Apache #nginx #MySQL #MariaDB #PostgreSQL #SQLite #Mastodon #snac2 #AI #LLM #LLMs #GenAI #NoAI #AntiAI #AntiLLM

@sb  the chippy-choppy There won't be many left. Depending on how staunchly and extremely anti-AI you and (aspiring) server admins are, there won't be any left. Because it's technically impossible to set up a Fediverse server with absolutely no AI code underneath whatsoever.

The Linux mainline kernel itself contains AI code now. It's officially allowed as long as it's disclosed as such. Thus, you will have to avoid literally all servers running on Linux.

https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html

https://www.neowin.net/news/linus-torvalds-declares-massive-ai-fueled-code-surges-as-the-new-normal-for-linux/

NetBSD has very strict rules regarding AI-generated code. But it doesn't rule AI-generated code out out of principle because it's AI-generated; it only wants to be safe that nothing that's actually GPL-licensed is slipped in. So, if you're an 100%, ultra-hardcode anti-AI extremist, avoid what few servers run on NetBSD.

https://www.netbsd.org/developers/commit-guidelines.html

OpenBSD contains AI-generated code, too. And it has no official stance regarding it. So servers running on OpenBSD are taboo, too.

https://www.osnews.com/story/144935/openbsd-and-slopcode-raindrop-to-a-torrent/

FreeBSD has no stance on AI whatsoever that I could find. However, apparently, the FreeBSD community loves to integrate Claude Code into their systems for automation purposes:

https://aumont.fr/posts/claude-code-freebsd/

https://discoverbsd.com/p/8a7660c31b

But you'll also have to look at the userland, the Web server, the database driver etc.

MariaDB allows AI code. You can safely assume that all MySQL databases on Web servers out there are actually powered by MariaDB.

https://mariadb.org/governance/governance-ai-policy/

Oracle MySQL can integrate AI, so it's safe to assume it contains AI-generated code.

https://blogs.oracle.com/mysql/announcing-mysql-ai

PostgreSQL probably allows AI code, too. There are even tools for it.

https://github.com/timescale/pg-aiguide

SQLite is very popular amongst AI users while not having any rules on AI-generated code. Assume it to be tainted.

This leaves you with only one choice: Self-hosting a personal, single-user snac2 server because snac2 doesn't need any database whatsoever. In fact, snac2 is staunchly against AI. And it runs on NetBSD.

https://codeberg.org/grunfink/snac2

But then there's the Web server. Apache may allow AI-generated code if it has been reviewed and made sure that it does not contain anything that's incompatible with the Apache-2.0 license.

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

nginx welcomes AI and advertises itself as ready for AI, and it takes no anti-AI-code stance. It's most likely already tainted.

https://www.f5.com/de_de/products/nginx.

This basically leaves you with no Web server guaranteed to be 100% free from AI-generated code to run snac2 on. But that doesn't matter because it's impossible to build a Web server devoid of any AI code to install snac2 on.

By the way: Mastodon itself explicitly allows AI code if it's disclosed as such, and if its contributor understands it.

https://github.com/mastodon/.github/blob/main/AI_POLICY.md

In other words, next to all Mastodon servers are running

• AI-generated Mastodon code
• on an AI-generated Web server
• with an AI-generated database driver
• on an AI-generated operating system kernel

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Linux #FreeBSD #OpenBSD #NetBSD #Apache #nginx #MySQL #MariaDB #PostgreSQL #SQLite #Mastodon #snac2 #AI #LLM #LLMs #GenAI #NoAI #AntiAI #AntiLLM

@sb  the chippy-choppy There won't be many left. Depending on how staunchly and extremely anti-AI you and (aspiring) server admins are, there won't be any left. Because it's technically impossible to set up a Fediverse server with absolutely no AI code underneath whatsoever.

The Linux mainline kernel itself contains AI code now. It's officially allowed as long as it's disclosed as such. Thus, you will have to avoid literally all servers running on Linux.

https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html

https://www.neowin.net/news/linus-torvalds-declares-massive-ai-fueled-code-surges-as-the-new-normal-for-linux/

NetBSD has very strict rules regarding AI-generated code. But it doesn't rule AI-generated code out out of principle because it's AI-generated; it only wants to be safe that nothing that's actually GPL-licensed is slipped in. So, if you're an 100%, ultra-hardcode anti-AI extremist, avoid what few servers run on NetBSD.

https://www.netbsd.org/developers/commit-guidelines.html

OpenBSD contains AI-generated code, too. And it has no official stance regarding it. So servers running on OpenBSD are taboo, too.

https://www.osnews.com/story/144935/openbsd-and-slopcode-raindrop-to-a-torrent/

FreeBSD has no stance on AI whatsoever that I could find. However, apparently, the FreeBSD community loves to integrate Claude Code into their systems for automation purposes:

https://aumont.fr/posts/claude-code-freebsd/

https://discoverbsd.com/p/8a7660c31b

But you'll also have to look at the userland, the Web server, the database driver etc.

MariaDB allows AI code. You can safely assume that all MySQL databases on Web servers out there are actually powered by MariaDB.

https://mariadb.org/governance/governance-ai-policy/

Oracle MySQL can integrate AI, so it's safe to assume it contains AI-generated code.

https://blogs.oracle.com/mysql/announcing-mysql-ai

PostgreSQL probably allows AI code, too. There are even tools for it.

https://github.com/timescale/pg-aiguide

SQLite is very popular amongst AI users while not having any rules on AI-generated code. Assume it to be tainted.

This leaves you with only one choice: Self-hosting a personal, single-user snac2 server because snac2 doesn't need any database whatsoever. In fact, snac2 is staunchly against AI. And it runs on NetBSD.

https://codeberg.org/grunfink/snac2

But then there's the Web server. Apache may allow AI-generated code if it has been reviewed and made sure that it does not contain anything that's incompatible with the Apache-2.0 license.

https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html

nginx welcomes AI and advertises itself as ready for AI, and it takes no anti-AI-code stance. It's most likely already tainted.

https://www.f5.com/de_de/products/nginx.

This basically leaves you with no Web server guaranteed to be 100% free from AI-generated code to run snac2 on. But that doesn't matter because it's impossible to build a Web server devoid of any AI code to install snac2 on.

By the way: Mastodon itself explicitly allows AI code if it's disclosed as such, and if its contributor understands it.

https://github.com/mastodon/.github/blob/main/AI_POLICY.md

In other words, next to all Mastodon servers are running

• AI-generated Mastodon code
• on an AI-generated Web server
• with an AI-generated database driver
• on an AI-generated operating system kernel

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Linux #FreeBSD #OpenBSD #NetBSD #Apache #nginx #MySQL #MariaDB #PostgreSQL #SQLite #Mastodon #snac2 #AI #LLM #LLMs #GenAI #NoAI #AntiAI #AntiLLM

@happyborg

People can follow hashtags

People on Mastodon can follow hashtags. But just because people on Mastodon can, doesn't mean people everywhere else in the Fediverse can, too.

AFAIK, some of the minimalist microblogging server applications designed for self-hosting don't offer this feature. I'm not sure if Pleroma and Akkoma have it.

Hubzilla, which is what I'm commenting from, definitely doesn't have this feature. And Hubzilla is anything but minimalist. It's the most powerful and versatile of all Fediverse server applications.

Also, if you can follow hashtags, you can only follow hashtags on your home server. But if you're on a small server, hardly any messages with these hashtags wash up there in the first place. You'll miss a lot. If you're on a private, single-user server, following hashtags is completely useless because the only messages with these hashtags that reach the server are those that you receive from your own contacts anyway.

(streams) and Forte, both being streamlined and more advanced Hubzilla descendants, can follow hashtags. But there simply aren't any big (streams) or Forte servers, especially not with lots of traffic from Mastodon. Most of the few (streams) and Forte users run their own single-user servers.

This is also why it doesn't matter much whether snac or GoToSocial users can follow hashtags: These two are almost exclusively used as private, single-user servers because that's what they're designed for first and foremost.

To make it short: Most Fediverse users outside the big Mastodon servers can only follow hashtags by relying on "bots" that forward posts with these hashtags which they find on e.g. mastodon.social.

In fact, this is good for Mastodon users as well. It helps circumvent two of Mastodon's disadvantages.

One is that it has no support for groups whatsoever (the Fediverse does have groups in case you don't know). If Mastodon users need to talk about a certain topic, they can't do so in a group about that topic. All they can do is shout into the ether with certain hashtags and hope that the right person catches their toot.

The other one is that this is highly unlikely on Mastodon itself. On Mastodon, most content remains unseen.

Mastodon doesn't offer a list of unread messages in the timeline, not even a counter. All that Mastodon users can do is scroll down their timeline until they either hit content that they've already seen, or until they've got no more time, or until they want no more. Anything below will remain unseen. It's sad that this counts as the default or even without alternatives in the Fediverse. And most Mastodon users follow so many accounts and channels (plus hashtags occasionally) that they can impossibly read all the messages they receive.

Let's suppose a Mastodon user wants to talk about Hubzilla for some reason. I've seen this happen often enough. The only chance they have, not knowing that the @hubzilla exists, much less that they can join it from Mastodon, is by tooting into the void with the hashtag #Hubzilla and hoping that either one of their followers or someone somewhere out there on their followers' servers follows the hashtag #Hubzilla.

But none of their followers comes online soon enough to scroll down to their toot. They all have tons of other content in their timelines above that toot, so they never scroll all the way down to it. If not, they simply don't know what Hubzilla is. And even if any Mastodon users follow the hashtag #Hubzilla (which I doubt), this still doesn't mean that one of them scrolls all the way down to that toot.

And then there's me. As I've already said, I'm on Hubzilla. I can't follow hashtags directly. Instead, I "follow" the hashtag #Hubzilla by having this hashtag on the FediBuzz relay (https://relay.fedi.buzz/) as a contact. Or, in Mastodon terms, by following it. FediBuzz is not a bot server. It's a relay that server admins can connect their servers to to have more public content on their servers (if their server software supports relays, that is). Something completely normal on Mastodon, especially on small servers.

So when someone on Mastodon toots something with #Hubzilla, I receive it as a new post. But I don't have to scroll down a timeline of unknown length to find it. I have a counter for unread messages and other unnoticed actions. It unfolds into a list of unread messages and other unnoticed actions. From there, I can get directly to that post. I will notice it. And I'll usually be able to help.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #Relay #Relays

@happyborg

People can follow hashtags

People on Mastodon can follow hashtags. But just because people on Mastodon can, doesn't mean people everywhere else in the Fediverse can, too.

AFAIK, some of the minimalist microblogging server applications designed for self-hosting don't offer this feature. I'm not sure if Pleroma and Akkoma have it.

Hubzilla, which is what I'm commenting from, definitely doesn't have this feature. And Hubzilla is anything but minimalist. It's the most powerful and versatile of all Fediverse server applications.

Also, if you can follow hashtags, you can only follow hashtags on your home server. But if you're on a small server, hardly any messages with these hashtags wash up there in the first place. You'll miss a lot. If you're on a private, single-user server, following hashtags is completely useless because the only messages with these hashtags that reach the server are those that you receive from your own contacts anyway.

(streams) and Forte, both being streamlined and more advanced Hubzilla descendants, can follow hashtags. But there simply aren't any big (streams) or Forte servers, especially not with lots of traffic from Mastodon. Most of the few (streams) and Forte users run their own single-user servers.

This is also why it doesn't matter much whether snac or GoToSocial users can follow hashtags: These two are almost exclusively used as private, single-user servers because that's what they're designed for first and foremost.

To make it short: Most Fediverse users outside the big Mastodon servers can only follow hashtags by relying on "bots" that forward posts with these hashtags which they find on e.g. mastodon.social.

In fact, this is good for Mastodon users as well. It helps circumvent two of Mastodon's disadvantages.

One is that it has no support for groups whatsoever (the Fediverse does have groups in case you don't know). If Mastodon users need to talk about a certain topic, they can't do so in a group about that topic. All they can do is shout into the ether with certain hashtags and hope that the right person catches their toot.

The other one is that this is highly unlikely on Mastodon itself. On Mastodon, most content remains unseen.

Mastodon doesn't offer a list of unread messages in the timeline, not even a counter. All that Mastodon users can do is scroll down their timeline until they either hit content that they've already seen, or until they've got no more time, or until they want no more. Anything below will remain unseen. It's sad that this counts as the default or even without alternatives in the Fediverse. And most Mastodon users follow so many accounts and channels (plus hashtags occasionally) that they can impossibly read all the messages they receive.

Let's suppose a Mastodon user wants to talk about Hubzilla for some reason. I've seen this happen often enough. The only chance they have, not knowing that the @hubzilla exists, much less that they can join it from Mastodon, is by tooting into the void with the hashtag #Hubzilla and hoping that either one of their followers or someone somewhere out there on their followers' servers follows the hashtag #Hubzilla.

But none of their followers comes online soon enough to scroll down to their toot. They all have tons of other content in their timelines above that toot, so they never scroll all the way down to it. If not, they simply don't know what Hubzilla is. And even if any Mastodon users follow the hashtag #Hubzilla (which I doubt), this still doesn't mean that one of them scrolls all the way down to that toot.

And then there's me. As I've already said, I'm on Hubzilla. I can't follow hashtags directly. Instead, I "follow" the hashtag #Hubzilla by having this hashtag on the FediBuzz relay (https://relay.fedi.buzz/) as a contact. Or, in Mastodon terms, by following it. FediBuzz is not a bot server. It's a relay that server admins can connect their servers to to have more public content on their servers (if their server software supports relays, that is). Something completely normal on Mastodon, especially on small servers.

So when someone on Mastodon toots something with #Hubzilla, I receive it as a new post. But I don't have to scroll down a timeline of unknown length to find it. I have a counter for unread messages and other unnoticed actions. It unfolds into a list of unread messages and other unnoticed actions. From there, I can get directly to that post. I will notice it. And I'll usually be able to help.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #Relay #Relays

@happyborg

People can follow hashtags

People on Mastodon can follow hashtags. But just because people on Mastodon can, doesn't mean people everywhere else in the Fediverse can, too.

AFAIK, some of the minimalist microblogging server applications designed for self-hosting don't offer this feature. I'm not sure if Pleroma and Akkoma have it.

Hubzilla, which is what I'm commenting from, definitely doesn't have this feature. And Hubzilla is anything but minimalist. It's the most powerful and versatile of all Fediverse server applications.

Also, if you can follow hashtags, you can only follow hashtags on your home server. But if you're on a small server, hardly any messages with these hashtags wash up there in the first place. You'll miss a lot. If you're on a private, single-user server, following hashtags is completely useless because the only messages with these hashtags that reach the server are those that you receive from your own contacts anyway.

(streams) and Forte, both being streamlined and more advanced Hubzilla descendants, can follow hashtags. But there simply aren't any big (streams) or Forte servers, especially not with lots of traffic from Mastodon. Most of the few (streams) and Forte users run their own single-user servers.

This is also why it doesn't matter much whether snac or GoToSocial users can follow hashtags: These two are almost exclusively used as private, single-user servers because that's what they're designed for first and foremost.

To make it short: Most Fediverse users outside the big Mastodon servers can only follow hashtags by relying on "bots" that forward posts with these hashtags which they find on e.g. mastodon.social.

In fact, this is good for Mastodon users as well. It helps circumvent two of Mastodon's disadvantages.

One is that it has no support for groups whatsoever (the Fediverse does have groups in case you don't know). If Mastodon users need to talk about a certain topic, they can't do so in a group about that topic. All they can do is shout into the ether with certain hashtags and hope that the right person catches their toot.

The other one is that this is highly unlikely on Mastodon itself. On Mastodon, most content remains unseen.

Mastodon doesn't offer a list of unread messages in the timeline, not even a counter. All that Mastodon users can do is scroll down their timeline until they either hit content that they've already seen, or until they've got no more time, or until they want no more. Anything below will remain unseen. It's sad that this counts as the default or even without alternatives in the Fediverse. And most Mastodon users follow so many accounts and channels (plus hashtags occasionally) that they can impossibly read all the messages they receive.

Let's suppose a Mastodon user wants to talk about Hubzilla for some reason. I've seen this happen often enough. The only chance they have, not knowing that the @hubzilla exists, much less that they can join it from Mastodon, is by tooting into the void with the hashtag #Hubzilla and hoping that either one of their followers or someone somewhere out there on their followers' servers follows the hashtag #Hubzilla.

But none of their followers comes online soon enough to scroll down to their toot. They all have tons of other content in their timelines above that toot, so they never scroll all the way down to it. If not, they simply don't know what Hubzilla is. And even if any Mastodon users follow the hashtag #Hubzilla (which I doubt), this still doesn't mean that one of them scrolls all the way down to that toot.

And then there's me. As I've already said, I'm on Hubzilla. I can't follow hashtags directly. Instead, I "follow" the hashtag #Hubzilla by having this hashtag on the FediBuzz relay (https://relay.fedi.buzz/) as a contact. Or, in Mastodon terms, by following it. FediBuzz is not a bot server. It's a relay that server admins can connect their servers to to have more public content on their servers (if their server software supports relays, that is). Something completely normal on Mastodon, especially on small servers.

So when someone on Mastodon toots something with #Hubzilla, I receive it as a new post. But I don't have to scroll down a timeline of unknown length to find it. I have a counter for unread messages and other unnoticed actions. It unfolds into a list of unread messages and other unnoticed actions. From there, I can get directly to that post. I will notice it. And I'll usually be able to help.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #Relay #Relays

@happyborg

People can follow hashtags

People on Mastodon can follow hashtags. But just because people on Mastodon can, doesn't mean people everywhere else in the Fediverse can, too.

AFAIK, some of the minimalist microblogging server applications designed for self-hosting don't offer this feature. I'm not sure if Pleroma and Akkoma have it.

Hubzilla, which is what I'm commenting from, definitely doesn't have this feature. And Hubzilla is anything but minimalist. It's the most powerful and versatile of all Fediverse server applications.

Also, if you can follow hashtags, you can only follow hashtags on your home server. But if you're on a small server, hardly any messages with these hashtags wash up there in the first place. You'll miss a lot. If you're on a private, single-user server, following hashtags is completely useless because the only messages with these hashtags that reach the server are those that you receive from your own contacts anyway.

(streams) and Forte, both being streamlined and more advanced Hubzilla descendants, can follow hashtags. But there simply aren't any big (streams) or Forte servers, especially not with lots of traffic from Mastodon. Most of the few (streams) and Forte users run their own single-user servers.

This is also why it doesn't matter much whether snac or GoToSocial users can follow hashtags: These two are almost exclusively used as private, single-user servers because that's what they're designed for first and foremost.

To make it short: Most Fediverse users outside the big Mastodon servers can only follow hashtags by relying on "bots" that forward posts with these hashtags which they find on e.g. mastodon.social.

In fact, this is good for Mastodon users as well. It helps circumvent two of Mastodon's disadvantages.

One is that it has no support for groups whatsoever (the Fediverse does have groups in case you don't know). If Mastodon users need to talk about a certain topic, they can't do so in a group about that topic. All they can do is shout into the ether with certain hashtags and hope that the right person catches their toot.

The other one is that this is highly unlikely on Mastodon itself. On Mastodon, most content remains unseen.

Mastodon doesn't offer a list of unread messages in the timeline, not even a counter. All that Mastodon users can do is scroll down their timeline until they either hit content that they've already seen, or until they've got no more time, or until they want no more. Anything below will remain unseen. It's sad that this counts as the default or even without alternatives in the Fediverse. And most Mastodon users follow so many accounts and channels (plus hashtags occasionally) that they can impossibly read all the messages they receive.

Let's suppose a Mastodon user wants to talk about Hubzilla for some reason. I've seen this happen often enough. The only chance they have, not knowing that the @hubzilla exists, much less that they can join it from Mastodon, is by tooting into the void with the hashtag #Hubzilla and hoping that either one of their followers or someone somewhere out there on their followers' servers follows the hashtag #Hubzilla.

But none of their followers comes online soon enough to scroll down to their toot. They all have tons of other content in their timelines above that toot, so they never scroll all the way down to it. If not, they simply don't know what Hubzilla is. And even if any Mastodon users follow the hashtag #Hubzilla (which I doubt), this still doesn't mean that one of them scrolls all the way down to that toot.

And then there's me. As I've already said, I'm on Hubzilla. I can't follow hashtags directly. Instead, I "follow" the hashtag #Hubzilla by having this hashtag on the FediBuzz relay (https://relay.fedi.buzz/) as a contact. Or, in Mastodon terms, by following it. FediBuzz is not a bot server. It's a relay that server admins can connect their servers to to have more public content on their servers (if their server software supports relays, that is). Something completely normal on Mastodon, especially on small servers.

So when someone on Mastodon toots something with #Hubzilla, I receive it as a new post. But I don't have to scroll down a timeline of unknown length to find it. I have a counter for unread messages and other unnoticed actions. It unfolds into a list of unread messages and other unnoticed actions. From there, I can get directly to that post. I will notice it. And I'll usually be able to help.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #Relay #Relays

@happyborg

People can follow hashtags

People on Mastodon can follow hashtags. But just because people on Mastodon can, doesn't mean people everywhere else in the Fediverse can, too.

AFAIK, some of the minimalist microblogging server applications designed for self-hosting don't offer this feature. I'm not sure if Pleroma and Akkoma have it.

Hubzilla, which is what I'm commenting from, definitely doesn't have this feature. And Hubzilla is anything but minimalist. It's the most powerful and versatile of all Fediverse server applications.

Also, if you can follow hashtags, you can only follow hashtags on your home server. But if you're on a small server, hardly any messages with these hashtags wash up there in the first place. You'll miss a lot. If you're on a private, single-user server, following hashtags is completely useless because the only messages with these hashtags that reach the server are those that you receive from your own contacts anyway.

(streams) and Forte, both being streamlined and more advanced Hubzilla descendants, can follow hashtags. But there simply aren't any big (streams) or Forte servers, especially not with lots of traffic from Mastodon. Most of the few (streams) and Forte users run their own single-user servers.

This is also why it doesn't matter much whether snac or GoToSocial users can follow hashtags: These two are almost exclusively used as private, single-user servers because that's what they're designed for first and foremost.

To make it short: Most Fediverse users outside the big Mastodon servers can only follow hashtags by relying on "bots" that forward posts with these hashtags which they find on e.g. mastodon.social.

In fact, this is good for Mastodon users as well. It helps circumvent two of Mastodon's disadvantages.

One is that it has no support for groups whatsoever (the Fediverse does have groups in case you don't know). If Mastodon users need to talk about a certain topic, they can't do so in a group about that topic. All they can do is shout into the ether with certain hashtags and hope that the right person catches their toot.

The other one is that this is highly unlikely on Mastodon itself. On Mastodon, most content remains unseen.

Mastodon doesn't offer a list of unread messages in the timeline, not even a counter. All that Mastodon users can do is scroll down their timeline until they either hit content that they've already seen, or until they've got no more time, or until they want no more. Anything below will remain unseen. It's sad that this counts as the default or even without alternatives in the Fediverse. And most Mastodon users follow so many accounts and channels (plus hashtags occasionally) that they can impossibly read all the messages they receive.

Let's suppose a Mastodon user wants to talk about Hubzilla for some reason. I've seen this happen often enough. The only chance they have, not knowing that the @hubzilla exists, much less that they can join it from Mastodon, is by tooting into the void with the hashtag #Hubzilla and hoping that either one of their followers or someone somewhere out there on their followers' servers follows the hashtag #Hubzilla.

But none of their followers comes online soon enough to scroll down to their toot. They all have tons of other content in their timelines above that toot, so they never scroll all the way down to it. If not, they simply don't know what Hubzilla is. And even if any Mastodon users follow the hashtag #Hubzilla (which I doubt), this still doesn't mean that one of them scrolls all the way down to that toot.

And then there's me. As I've already said, I'm on Hubzilla. I can't follow hashtags directly. Instead, I "follow" the hashtag #Hubzilla by having this hashtag on the FediBuzz relay (https://relay.fedi.buzz/) as a contact. Or, in Mastodon terms, by following it. FediBuzz is not a bot server. It's a relay that server admins can connect their servers to to have more public content on their servers (if their server software supports relays, that is). Something completely normal on Mastodon, especially on small servers.

So when someone on Mastodon toots something with #Hubzilla, I receive it as a new post. But I don't have to scroll down a timeline of unknown length to find it. I have a counter for unread messages and other unnoticed actions. It unfolds into a list of unread messages and other unnoticed actions. From there, I can get directly to that post. I will notice it. And I'll usually be able to help.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #Relay #Relays

@Mark Wyner Won’t Comply :vm: First of all, you completely forgot the social media posters. The TOC link leads nowhere.

Also, maybe it's fair to mention that I'm working on an entire wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions, especially for the Fediverse. 46 pages are planned as of now, 24 of them are already written. These will include over 30 pages on how to do things, how not to do things and what never to do at all.

I won't add step-by-step guides for certain frontends. But I've already started adding rules and guidelines for how to describe images appropriately and write alt-texts in a way that won't break stuff anywhere.

Even if it's a very incomplete WIP, it's unique in several ways:

• It's the only wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions. Few writers have even only written multiple pages or articles on this subject.
• It's the only guide that takes the existence of the Fediverse outside of Mastodon into consideration. This means that it's also the only guide that doesn't assume that Fediverse equals always having only 500 characters for the message text. It actually recommends an additional, longer image description in the message text in certain situations, regardless of whether or not vanilla Mastodon users can do that.
• It's the only guide that, instead of regurgitating the alt-text rules for webpages and blogs and assuming that they apply to the Fediverse just the same, talks about the peculiarities of posting images into the Fediverse, how Mastodon's alt-text quality criteria are different from the W3C WAI and WCAG alt-text quality criteria, and why it's critically important to know and fulfill Mastodon's requirements for good alt-texts.
• It's probably the only guide that doesn't assume that you can always precisely target a certain audience for your content and make sure that only those receive it who understand it right off the bat.
• It is the only guide that lists over 60 references, including your blog post, but also including university webpages as well as over two dozen guides from Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Chao-c'

BTW I had account on identi.ca, which was StatusNet powered (I believe).

It was. At least until Evan and Erin could no longer justify it running on that janky OStatus protocol. The result was the ActivityPump protocol, the pump.io software and Identi.ca's switch to pump.io with all hands on board.

Yes, and it should not be implemented in Ruby or PHP or something like that. I have seen one online discussion forum being rewritten from PHP to Rust few years ago, and the improvement in responsiveness of the web platform was amazing. (I do C, not Rust, but C is too oldschool now, and the performance penalty of Rust is minor, probably not noticeable at all)

This reminds me of how the Fediverse is all over the place in terms of programming languages. Everyone has their own Holy Grail.

Friendica and its descendants are written in PHP. They may not be the fastest (even though what bogged down early Friendica were its heavyweight federation connectors to everywhere, especially the one for Facebook that came in 2011). Mike either discarded or rewrote these when he rewrote Red. But they happily run on a run-of-the-mill LAMP stack.

Mastodon is written in Ruby on Rails. Hubzilla runs circles around it in terms of performance per account/channel, and that has to say something. The only thing that managed to top this was early diaspora*, written in Ruby on Rails for Mac with MongoDB as the database system.

The *omas are built in Elixir. Granted, they're utter featherweights, especially considering their features. They're legendary for their low server impact. Then again, Pleroma apparently is spaghetti code straight from hell. Its own devs often don't have a clue where to go look for bugs, much less how to fix them. (Miraculously, the Akkoma devs do manage to get ride of quite a number of them.)

The *keys are built in TypeScript and Vue.js. I guess one reason why Misskey is infamous for having so many forks and forks of forks is because there are tons of people who can code in JavaScript, the primary mobile programming language.

Iceshrimp.NET is a still very incomplete "rewrite" of old Iceshrimp in C#. It was largely tackled to get rid of all those nasty bugs inherited from Misskey that even Misskey doesn't manage to get rid of. I've heard quite some outcry: Iceshrimp.NET is a sell-out to Microsoft. I guess whoever uttered that didn't go check who owns TypeScript.

PieFed is a dead giveaway: Python. And PieFed makes more headlines in the Threadiverse for server politics than for its underlying technology, except that Lemmy pales in comparison.

GoToSocial is a dead giveaway, too: Go. And it was one of the first Fediverse server applications to not come with a Web UI. Those who use it for a single-user server often don't even bother installing one and use some Mastodon app or other instead. Besides, why drag around a Web UI if there are much better third-party Web UIs than whatever you could whip up?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #IceshrimpJS #Iceshrimp.NET #PieFed #GoToSocial #PHP #RubyOnRails #Elixir #JavaScript #TypeScript #VueJS #C# #Python #Go

@Chao-c'

Also, ALT text translates with the rest of the post, which can be helpful for images which contain only foreign language text.

Hubzilla is the most incompatible ActivityPub software in Fediverse. You do just lot of things wrong, to put it mildly.

You still seem to think that Gargron invented ActivityPub and the Fediverse, that Mastodon is the one and only reference implementation of ActivityPub, and that everything that doesn't work exactly like Mastodon is broken.

Here are the facts:

Mastodon was launched in January, 2016.

Hubzilla was launched in March, 2015. Counting an earlier incarnation named Red, it was created in May, 2012, when Friendica's creator re-wrote his own fork of a Friendica fork of his own.

Mastodon implemented ActivityPub in September, 2017, when the spec wasn't finalised yet.

Hubzilla implemented ActivityPub in July, 2017. Two months before Mastodon. Hubzilla was the first software to ever implement ActivityPub.

Hubzilla implemented ActivityPub strictly by the book. It has always tried to stick as close to the official W3C ActivityPub spec as possible.

Mastodon, in stark contrast, has always been stretching the ActivityPub spec until it broke. Not only that, but it has always been adding stuff outside the spec. First it did so to take over certain features from StatusNet which was its original protocol. More recently, it did so with the very intention to break compatibility with the rest of the Fediverse and make everything that isn't Mastodon look broken. And people like you keep falling for it because they think they know for a fact that Mastodon is the ActivityPub reference implementation.

The whole Fediverse has to break the ActivityPub spec just to be able to federate with Mastodon.

yes, the Hubzilla author is writing Streams, with nomadic identity, but it also means, that he understands, that Hubzilla approach is kind of dead-end.

You know nothing. Whereas I can rattle down the whole history from Mistpark in 2010 to today.

Mike Macgirvin, creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte created his post-Hubzilla server applications because he kept advancing the Zot protocol. And he couldn't implement these advancements into Hubzilla because they bore the chance of breaking compatibility with what already existed.

(streams) is not a completely new development, nor is it a straight Hubzilla fork.

(streams) is a 2022 fork of Roadhouse.
Which was a 2022 fork of either the third Osada or Mistpark 2020 or Redmatrix 2020.
Which were 2020 forks of Zap (or each other, but at least one of them was forked from Zap).
Which was a 2018 fork of either Hubzilla itself or the first Osada, which was a 2018 fork of Hubzilla.

Osada and Zap were created to develop Zot6. In its early stages of concept, Mike expected Zot6 to be incompatible with everything else. Mind you, he didn't see that as something bad. Advancing Zot was necessary because the then-current version of Zot was less than optimal. And Mike's vision was a decentralised, nomadic network named the "Grid", entirely based on Zot. The Grid would have been vastly superior to the existing Fediverse in every way possible.

So the issue with his early draft of Zot6 was that it was quite incompatible with non-nomadic protocols. Nomadic Zot6 content could not be translated into non-nomadic protocols like the diaspora* protocol or ActivityPub.

Thus, developing Zot6 on Hubzilla was out of question. Zot6 would have broken too much on Hubzilla. Besides, Hubzilla was bad as a platform to experiment on due to its wealth of supported protocols and other features, all of which would have had to be made compatible with Zot6.

And this is the real reason why Mike created Osada and Zap. From how I see it, and how I remember what he talked about back in the day (I was there, yes), he first forked Osada from Hubzilla. Then he ripped everything out that he didn't need, including support for all protocols except for Zot itself, ActivityPub, RSS and Atom, including the CMS stuff like articles, planning cards, notes, wikis and webpages, etc. Then he modified what was left against his early version of Zot6.

Then he discovered that a cloned Osada channel couldn't properly send content via ActivityPub.

Then, shortly afterwards, he forked Osada into Zap. He removed nomadic identity from Osada which kept ActivityPub and ActivityPub support from Zap which stayed nomadic.

The idea was to have a nomadic, cloned channel on Zap as your main channel that would only connect to Hubzilla, Osada and Zap, and to have an additional, non-nomadic channel on Osada that would serve as a "gateway" between nomadic Zap and the non-nomadic ActivityPub Fediverse.

Of course, this was highly impractical. But by 2019, Mike found a way to make Zot6 compatible with non-nomadic protocols. So, in early 2019, Mike discontinued Osada and forked a new Osada from Zap which only differred from Zap by having ActivityPub support while still being nomadic. This enabled Mike to have one development platform for Zot6 in conjunction with non-nomadic protocols and another one on which ActivityPub did not stand in the way.

Later in 2019, both Osada and Zap got stable releases. At that point, Osada and Zap were identical in code. Both had ActivityPub support. It was included into their cores now and no longer an add-on like on Hubzilla. They only had two differences. One was the branding. The other one was that Osada servers had ActivityPub activated by default, and Zap servers had ActivityPub disabled by default. Keeping Osada around was unnecessary now, so ActivityPub was activated by default on Zap, and Osada was discontinued. Zot6 was so stable that it was soon backported to Hubzilla.

Mike wasn't done yet, though. He now wanted to develop Zot8. Again, he did not want to develop protocol changes on stable production software that people potentially daily-drove.

Thus, three new forks emerged in 2020: another Osada, Mistpark 2020 (a.k.a. Misty) and Redmatrix 2020 (named after the Red Matrix, the name that Hubzilla bore from late 2012 to early 2015 between being created as Red and being re-branded into Hubzilla). Mike used them to develop Zot8. They were identical in all but brand identity.

This was fully intentional on Mike's part to confuse the hell out of the brand fetishists that were growing more and more numerous in the Fediverse. His goal was for people to declare Osada or Misty or Redmatrix the best Fediverse software and superior to everything else, just for him to tell them that Osada, Misty and Redmatrix are absolutely identical. In fact, the three remained identical to Zap in features.

Zot8 never got stable because Mike kept advancing it further and further. In early 2022, he was at Zot11. But Zot11 was so incompatible with everything else, including previous Zot versions, that Mike declared it a new protocol of its own and renamed it Nomad. In order to test-drive it, he forked Osada or Misty or Redmatrix into Roadhouse. After all, there were people who were daring enough to daily-drive production channels on Osada, Misty and Redmatrix, albeit only few. Roadhouse was still identical in features to Zap, Osada, Misty and Redmatrix.

It was now possible to crossgrade between Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix and Roadhouse by simply rebasing the server code.

Later in 2022, he created a new fork of Roadhouse itself. The reason for this was not further protocol advancement. No, this time, it mostly had branding and licensing reasons.

First of all, he wanted to make that fork as easy for others to fork and adopt as possible. Everything he had developed so far was under the MIT license (he himself had relicensed Friendica under the AGPLv3 in 2011, but he didn't actually develop on Friendica; he developed on a fork named Free-Friendika that was still MIT-licensed and then backported the changes to the Friendica repository, and Red was a Free-Friendika fork). This new repository was released into the public domain. At first, the whole thing was never primarily intended to be installed on servers as it was, but rather to be forked as the base of something new.

At least the core and Mike's own add-ons were. What third-party add-ons from Hubzilla times were still there got to keep their maze of licenses. This was intentional on Mike's part, too. It would make it impossible for commercial players to scoop up the whole thing and relicense it into something non-free and commercial without breaking any licenses, or without pumping tons of money into their legal department to work around that maze of licenses.

Also, Mike removed any and all naming and branding from the software. He absolutely intentionally made it nameless. You've read that right. He did this for two reasons. One, whoever wanted to fork it would have to give the fork an individual name and an individual branding. Two, this was to mess with brand fanbois and brand fetishists even more: This thing had no brand to gush over to begin with.

Furthermore, Mike removed all nodeinfo code that he could possibly get away with removing. Again, this was intentional. One intention was to stop this software from automatically joining the "my Fediverse project is bigger than yours" and "my server is bigger than yours" rat races. He intentionally did everything he could to keep this software away from The Federation, Fediverse Observer, FediDB and the like.

The other intention was for the case of commercial players looking for free code to steal. If this software had really taken off and left its stats proving its popularity everywhere, some big commercial player would have been likely to try and steal this software, make it commercial and non-free and release it as their own original creation. So his intention was for them to not even be able to find it in this case. (This, by the way, was the reason why he relicensed Friendica under the AGPLv3, and why he hardly ever spoke about Free-Friendika: Now that Friendica was growing popular, he didn't want big commercial players to scoop up code of his under a license that they could change to non-free.)

This server application became the first and only one in the Fediverse with no fixed server type identifier, in fact, with none at all by default. It has one text field for the server name, just like Mastodon and Friendica and Hubzilla and the like. But it has an additional field where the server type, i.e. the identifier for the software, can be entered. If none is entered, it's derived from the server name. Mike used to have a server that identified as "Y" because, as he said, "Y is not X."

While the application itself is nameless (for it still is), the code repository did require a name of sorts. Mike named the repository "streams".

Now, the community needed something to call that nameless software when they spoke about it. So they unofficially established "(streams)", complete with parentheses that make sure that this is not actually the name of this software. Those who say, "Streams," with a capital S and no parentheses, and who use that term as if it's an official name, usually sincerely believe that this is the official name.

Mike himself uses "streams" without the parentheses because even he needs something to call his own software by. Before Forte was made, he preferred talking about the streams repository without directly mentioning the software. And he himself denied that (streams) is even a project. It's just a bunch of code that runs.

As far as I know, it was now possible to freely crossgrade between six different server applications because they were still identical in features. Only that Mike also had six server applications to take care of now.

So on December 31st, 2022, Mike discontinued Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix and Roadhouse. Admins who ran either of these on their servers were recommended to rebase their servers to the streams repository. In this case, by the way, the old branding was kept. I've seen a server that still had "zap" as its subdomain which indicated that it was set up as a Zap server, that had Misty branding, but that actually ran (streams).

From then on, Mike dedicated his time to maintaining and developing only the streams repository. He still occasionally helped Hubzilla out, though.

In 2023, the Mitra creator and developer silverpill approached Mike. The goal was to make Mitra nomadic. I guess earlier attempts using a blockchain and crypto technology didn't come to fruition, so it had to be Mike's way which had proven itself stable for more than a decade. However, Mitra was to remain based on ActivityPub.

It was in this exchange that Mike realised that ActivityPub could indeed be used for nomadic identity if a few things were added to it. One outcome was FEP-ef61 "Portable Objects" which introduced decentralised IDs (DIDs) that would not be bound to any one server domain.

Instead of creating a whole new server application to play with, Mike simply made a "nomadic" branch in the streams repository (even though the software was already nomadic) in which he implemented support for nomadic identity via ActivityPub. Support as in (streams) understanding it while internally still using Nomad for nomadicity.

In June, 2024, Mike considered the "nomadic" branch reliable enough and merged it into the "dev" branch.

In July, 2024, Mike merged the "dev" branch into the "release" branch which caused DIDs as per FEP-ef61 to be rolled out to existing production servers. On accounts created on this new version, channels would have a DID internally. On accounts greated on any previous version, even new channels would keep the old ID system for the time being. This way, existing accounts and channels weren't messed with.

However, what had worked under supervised and restricted lab conditions completely blew up under real-life conditions. Again, I was there on (streams) with a pre-DID account and two channels on it. I still have them. (streams) channels wouldn't federate with anything anymore. It had become impossible to send anything anywhere. What Mike was facing was nothing short of an enigma because not even he knew what was going in.

So he started tinkering. In mid-August, Mike forked the streams repository into something named and branded Forte. He did so so he could rip the Nomad protocol out while still keeping the entire functionality. He had to get rid of Nomad because he had discovered that (streams) got confused juggling all the many IDs it had to deal with, so he had to weed out the Nomad and Zot6 IDs to make things easier. But he couldn't possibly have done that on (streams) proper.

This way, Mike created the very first Fediverse server software that uses ActivityPub for full nomadicity, including cloning.

By the end of August, things got back to normal. But Mike, having spent every free minute in the last few weeks to get (streams) back into working condition, was burned out. He sent an open message around in which he declared that he would completely retire from Fediverse development, and both the streams repository and Forte were up for grabs.

But nobody was found who could take over either. (streams) and Forte probably had way fewer than 100 users combined. Those few who would have been able to maintain either didn't have time. One did have time and was willing to do so, but he didn't know how to code. He eventually did start teaching himself, and he occasionally contributes merge requests, but there was no way he could take over as the only dev for either, much less both. So Mike had to go on, whether he wanted or not, albeit at a somewhat slower pace.

This is why Mike is still developing (streams) and Forte to this day.

By the way: The reason why Mike "abandoned" his old software was because he needed to invest all his time into protocol development and advancement. Mike isn't the one to constantly maintain stable server software unless he absolutely has to.

In 2011, he handed Friendica over to two new developers so that he had time to create the Zot protocol.

In 2015 already, he handed Hubzilla over to two new developers so that he had time to explore the advancement of the Zot protocol. He still contributed to Hubzilla's development.

In 2019, he wanted to hand Osada and Zap over to the community, now that they were stable, so he had time to develop Zot8. But the Osada/Zap community was so tiny that he couldn't get a new dedicated developer team together.

In 2024, he wanted to hand (streams) and Forte over to the community because fixing (streams)' huge identity bug, which led to Forte's creation, had burnt him out. He wanted to quit. But, again, he couldn't because (streams) didn't have a single user who had both the time and the knowledge to take over as the new main dev.

Consider this: Gargron was a young man when he made Mastodon. I think he was still at university. Mike Macgirvin made Friendica, he had some three decades of professional work in IT and software under his belly. Gargron was at the beginning of his career. Mike had quit and moved from the USA to the western Australian outback where he has been living as a farmer ever since. He might actually be older than Gargron's parents.

while nomadic identitity would be cool thing, currently it does not exist

Take off your Mastodon glasses and look at the Fediverse and what it actually is like.

Nomadic identity does exist. Not as a vague idea, not as a concept on paper, but as a stable, production-grade feature that has been used to its full extent for well over a decade now. Just because Mastodon doesn't have it, doesn't mean the Fediverse doesn't have it. And just because Mastodon doesn't recognise it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Fediverse has loads of features which Mastodon users want "the Fediverse" to have. It has features which many Mastodon users have never wanted "the Fediverse" to have such as quote-posts, introduced by Mike Macgirvin on Mistpark in 2010. It even has features that are completely and utterly unimaginable for Mastodon users, and it has had even these since as early as 2010, 2012 or 2015.

Nomadic identity was invented by Mike Macgirvin in 2011 with the Zot protocol.

It was first implemented by him in mid-2012 when he rewrote Red against Zot. This means that Hubzilla itself has been offering full-blown nomadic identity since 2012, almost four years longer than Mastodon has existed.

This very Hubzilla channel that I'm commenting from right here, right now, is actually nomadic. It is cloned across two servers: hub.netzgemeinde.eu and hub.hubzilla.de. And it has been since before Elon Musk announced to take over Twitter in early 2022. When I sent you this comment, it was automatically sync'd over to hub.hubzilla.de. When you sent the comment that I'm replying to, it was automatically sync'd over to hub.hubzilla.de. The clone has actually been of great help at least once.

Unfortunately, non-nomadic software identifies cloned channels as fully separate accounts with fully separate identities. But rest assured: @Jupiter Rowland on hub.hubzilla.de is my clone. It's the live, hot, real-time, bidirectional backup of the main instance of my channel, @Jupiter Rowland on hub.netzgemeinde.eu that you're following now. They're both one and the same channel with one and the same identity, [email protected], even though Mastodon is unable to see it as such. Go check both. You'll see they've got all the same content in them, including comments from others. Including your comment. How else can [email protected] possibly have one of your comments under a post if you've only sent that comment to [email protected] if it weren't for nomadic identity?

Even nomadic identity via ActivityPub is available as a stable, production-grade feature in stable, production-grade software right now as we speak. Forte was the first to be fully nomadic via nothing but ActivityPub, as of mid-August, 2024. Tootik, based on Gemini instead of the World Wide Web, is fully nomadic at server level, too. Mitra is fully nomadic by means of the Minimitra client.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonCentricity #MastodonNormativity #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Zot8 #Nomad #Friendica #Red #RedMatrix #Hubzilla #Osada #Zap #Mistpark #Mistpark2020 #Misty #Redmatrix2020 #Roadhouse #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Tootik #Mitra #Minimitra #NomadicIdentity

@DavidM_yeg @Dennis What more is needed?

A full visual description of the settings, the people (of course, avoiding their gender and describing their skin tone rather than their race), their outfits, the surroundings?

The title of the film, including an explanation what this film is, who made it, what it is about, when it was released, who the characters are and who the actors are?

Regardless of neither of this belonging into the alt-text because information that is neither available in the message text nor plainly visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into the alt-text? Because there are people who cannot access alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)explain(20)things(20)or(20)give(20)other(20)information(20)only(20)in(20)alt-text(21)

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

And, pray tell, how is all this supposed to fit in 512 characters or fewer so that Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Sharkey, CherryPick and the other Misskey forks won't discard the alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/How(20)long(20)can(20)alt-text(20)be(3f)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #CherryPick #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Danny Boling ☮️ @ADHDeanASL I'm already trying my best. I'm probably way ahead of your requirements. And I'm still constantly trying to up my game and be ahead of everyone's requirements.

I've been "studying" alt-texts and image descriptions both generally and in the Fediverse/in Mastodon's culture for a few years. I've read over 50 alt-text guides on the Web; here's a list I've compiled, complete with links: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Other(20)resources(20)on(20)image(20)descriptions(20)and(20)alt-text.

In case the page behind this link wasn't obvious enough: Yes, I'm working on a wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse. I take this topic that seriously. As it stands now, I have a bit over 30 rules that had better or actually must be followed when describing images and writing alt-texts in and for the Fediverse.

When I post images, I try hard to follow all these rules. I take into consideration who may receive my image post, what they know about what's in the image, what they don't know, what they may want to know and how curious they may potentially be about the topic, and I write my image descriptions accordingly. I also take the special culture in the Fediverse and particularly on Mastodon into consideration, especially Mastodon's fondness of very detailed image descriptions as well as Mastodon's dislike of having to ask for further information; at least I perceive the latter.

This is also why I rarely post images anymore. (Don't go looking for recent images on this channel that I'm commenting from right now. I've quit posting images here two years ago. I post them elsewhere in the Fediverse now and even that only rarely.) Posting and describing images properly is a huge undertaking if your image posts are all about super-obscure topics. And mine are.

The only images I've posted over the last two years are memes. They're fairly easy to handle. They only need one visual description, ideally a fairly short one even, and it goes into the alt-text. Still, they require explanations if folks won't understand them right off the bat. And they certainly won't understand my memes about the Fediverse or about very obscure 3-D virtual worlds.

In order to keep my meme posts a bit less extensive, I resort to linking to KnowYourMeme for explanations of meme templates. The alternative that many would prefer would be for me to explain the meme templates in the post, but that would add another five-digit number of characters to the post. Been there, actually done that: "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" required over 12,000 characters of explanation.

I'd also post renderings from the 3-D virtual worlds that I sometimes meme about. But the effort to do so is a whole lot bigger. That's because I describe each one of my virtual world renderings twice. One is the "short" description that goes into the alt-text. The other one is the "long", actually fully detailed description that goes into the message text. The latter contains transcripts of all bits of text within the borders of the image, readable in the image or not. It also contains all explanations necessary to understand the image and its descriptions.

I haven't posted any virtual world renderings in two years now. I've been working on and off on a series of simple avatar portraits in slightly different outfits for over a year and a half now, and even the first image with three portraits isn't done yet, much less all four image for the first post or actually all images in the series.

My personal record of fairly uninterrupted image-describing is two full days, once for three images with some 73,000 characters of long descriptions, once for a single image with over 60,000 characters of long description. The latter does not include distilling the short description for the alt-text from the long description; I had to do that the morning of the third day.

Why they have to be that long? Here's my explanation: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/95b6e36d-7fcd-4791-8cc1-c93e8b9975a3.

Unfortunately, I don't have any example of a 3-D virtual world rendering that's recent enough that the image descriptions aren't painfully outdated.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@calends :trantifa: 🏴️ Line breaks and the quotation marks from your keyboard are both terrible ideas in alt-text. Both are not officially count as elements supported in alt-text, and especially line breaks in alt-text are an invention by complete laypeople on Mastodon.



Line breaks are a bad idea because screen readers will consider each paragraph in your alt-text an individual alt-text for an individual image. And screen readers tend to start reading out alt-texts for images with something like, "Graphic."

So if your alt-text has three paragraphs, a screen reader will start reading out each one with, "Graphic."

Reference #1: Steve Faulkner (@Steve Faulkner), Short note on coding alt-text, TPGI, September 15th, 2015; https://www.tpgi.com/short-note-on-coding-alt-text/.

Reference #2: Adrian Roselli, Long alt, adrianroselli.com, April 20th, 2024, last update November 8th, 2024; https://adrianroselli.com/2024/04/long-alt.html



Double quotes from your keyboard are an even worse idea. That's because they can make certain Fediverse server applications malfunction. I'm not even joking here.

First of all, there's Hubzilla, the most feature-rich Fediverse server software of all and one of the most technologically advanced (https://hubzilla.org; https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla). I'm commenting from Hubzilla right now.

When there are keyboard double quotes in an alt-text, Hubzilla renders them as their corresponding HTML entities: ". A screen reader will read them out as something like, "And quot," and raise its voice afterwards unless a full stop follows.

And then there are (streams) (https://codeberg.org/streams/streams; https://joinfediverse.wiki/(streams)) and Forte (https://codeberg.org/fortified/forte), both descendants of Hubzilla, created and still maintained by Hubzilla's original creator.

These two use keyboard double quotes as alt-text delimiters internally. So when they encounter the first keyboard double quote in an alt-text, they will assume that this is where the alt-text ends. They will not render the parts of the alt-text starting with that first keyboard double quote. Instead, they will silently discard them.

Quotation marks are unnecessary in alt-text anyway. In stark contrast to what everyone on Mastodon believes, alt-text is mostly for screen reader applications. But if you absolutely need quotation marks in alt-text, either use single quotes or typographically correct quotes (“” or »« or «»).

One more thing: You've mentioned "supplemental info". I sincerely hope that you aren't talking about explanations for the image itself.

Explanations, credits, license information and any other information that is neither present in the message text nor visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into alt-text.

Explanations and other extra information must always go into the message text where everyone can access it who can access the message!

Why? Because there are people who cannot access alt-texts. I'm still not joking.

I've explained this in my WIP wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

Reference: kwbell.eu (@KB), 'Alt' text for Mastodon images, April 9th, 2023, last edited June 1st, 2023

Another reference: these actual Mastodon posts which are comments on one of my posts from a few years ago, posted by a user whose hands don't work sufficiently enough to have the physical ability to open an alt-text.

RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110685869957855464
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690586917684870
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690592405651398
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690603250669254
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110691919197248049

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Roknrol Here are a few older alt-texts that I've written for original images of my own.

Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery. A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Good? Too long? Still not sufficiently detailed? If the latter, then rest assured: When the alt-text announces an additional, much longer image description in the message text, then there actually is one.

That is, nowadays, my goal is to limit my alt-texts to a maximum of 512 characters. That's because if a post with a longer alt-text arrives on Misskey or Iceshrimp-JS or Sharkey or another Misskey fork, then the alt-text is deleted without any trace. It will look like there has never been any alt-text to begin with.

When I post memes, it's usually easier to keep alt-texts shorter. The tricky part is to still have all the text transcripts in the alt-text because I only write one visual description for each of my meme images unless it's based on a virtual world rendering. I do give some explanations in my meme posts, though.

These two are very recent:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “Fediverse admin: announces the end of their instance and asks their users to migrate to other instances,” and “Admins of other instances:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@HeliosPi

Agreed. I'm also complaining that it takes a lot more time for me to post media with alt-text, proportionally, and doing so doesn't increase attention to that post.

@Aaron Caskey-Demaret

I agree. Alt text may be an amazing multiplier, but zero times anything is still zero 🙂

Sounds like me. My image posts have next to no audience.

Basically, I've got three kinds of image posts.

One, memes about the Fediverse. And I don't mean memes that treat the Fediverse as only Mastodon, or that make the Fediverse being Mastodon with a few things attached as add-ons being the unquestioned standard. I post them on @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams).

Two, memes about 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet.

Both of them are tricky in various ways. They only get one visual description each, and it goes into the alt-text. The tricky part here is that I no longer let my alt-texts grow longer than 512 characters. That's due to a bug on Misskey and its various forks and forks of forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS etc.): They only support alt-texts with up to 512 characters. They're supposed to truncate longer alt-texts, but instead, they delete longer alt-texts with no trace. So if you write an alt-text that's longer than 512 characters, someone on Misskey or Sharkey or so will think that you haven't written any alt-text at all.

In addition, I have to explain them which I do in the message text and not in the alt-text. My impression of especially Mastodon is that people love receiving explanations along with images that they don't understand right off the bat. I believe it has gotten to the point that these explanations are becoming or have since become almost as mandatory as visual descriptions. And both the Fediverse beyond Mastodon and 3-D virtual worlds are super-obscure topics that require explanations, not to mention that not everyone knows and understands all meme templates. So I have to explain my own image macros plus the topic they're about plus the meme templates I've used.

This is what really requires time and effort. That is, for the meme templates, I resort to links to KnowYourMeme. Some people on Mastodon are staunchly against links to explanations and demand that one explain everything right in the post. I've done that once. The result was six explanations with over 12,000 characters for one single meme template ("One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor"), and I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings and its characters. I don't really think these people prefer 12,000 characters in one post to one link to KnowYourMeme, even if the two explanations for the topic took up another 12,000+ characters.

Well, and lastly, I sometimes post renderings from 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet, too. If I post them at all, for I haven't posted any in over two years.

That's because the effort is even bigger. Not only do I have to explain them, but I have to describe them twice. The image description in the alt-text is the short one. Again, no explanations, and this time, usually no text transcripts either. And then there's the long, fully detailed image description in the message text. It contains all explanations necessary, and it contains transcripts of any and all bits of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable or not.

If I'm lucky, I don't have to write much more than 20,000 characters of descriptions, explanations and transcripts for one post. If I'm not so lucky, this block will exceed 60,000 characters and take two full days to research for and write for only one image.

I treat it like muscle, gotta keep my alt-text skills sharp cos one day someone might actually want to read my shitposts.

I actually try to optimise and improve my image descriptions further and further whenever I learn something new, e.g. new image-describing rules or guidelines. And I've learned enough about describing images and writing alt-texts specifically for the Fediverse that I've started putting together a wiki about that special topic.

Maybe I'll start following the advice from Veronica with Four Eyes and give two visual descriptions for each of my image, one in the alt-text, one in the message text for those who are visually impaired enough to not see my images clearly, but not so visually impaired that they require a screen reader to read the text on the screen.

Maybe I might go as far as describing my virtual world renderings three times so that there's an additional shorter description in the message text.

I mean, as you can probably tell from this comment, I don't have to worry about local character limits.

CC: @Em :official_verified:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Early Twix Ich weiß ja auch nicht, ob meine Bildbeschreibungen etwas taugen, vor allem gemäß der Mastodon-Kultur. Ich bin selbst nicht auf Mastodon, aber wenn die eigenen Beiträge auf Mastodon landen, hält man sich entweder an Mastodons Kultur und Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln, oder man wird massenhaft angegriffen und/oder blockiert.

(Es bringt übrigens nichts, auf dem Kanal, von dem aus ich jetzt gerade kommentierte, nach aktuellen Bildern zu suchen. Alle Bilder hier sind alt. Hier poste ich keine Bilder mehr. Meine wenigen neueren Bilder finden sich auf @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet und @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams), und die meisten davon sind Memes.)

Andererseits: Wenn ich anderen Leuten Rückmeldungen für ihre Alt-Texte geben würde, würden sehr viel mehr davon mich blockieren und evtl. vorher angreifen als meine Rückmeldung akzeptieren. Ich würde die Alt-Texte nämlich abklopfen nach a) Wahrheitsgehalt, b) Details, c) Einhaltung sehr vieler Regeln und Richtlinien für Bildbeschreibungen und d) Kompatibilität mit einigen Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Serveranwendungen. Die letzteren beiden Punkte sind im Fediverse derart unbekannt, daß Feedback meinerseits fast zwingend zum Verriß werden würde. Deswegen lasse ich es lieber.

CC: @Erdstern @Schauinsland @Ulrike E.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #MastodonKultur

@Roland Häder

So how do they think it can be enforced everywhere?

Just like they try to enforce anything everywhere.

• They'll simply tell you to do it.
• They'll lecture you about it.
• They'll call you out if you don't do it.
• Once they've caught you not doing it repeatedly, they'll insult you as ableist.
• They'll block you. Before they block you, they'll announce in public that they'll block you because you're an ableist swine who refuses to add alt-text to his images, and they'll mention you so that you can see it.
  If you're only here to get and stay in contact with a select few people, none of whom are on Mastodon, you might not care.
  But if you need a certain amount of reach especially on Mastodon, this is bad.

I've seen all the above actually happen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@eshep

I've not yet seen any posts, attacking or otherwise, taking this stance

Not yet.

Right now, this feature is only available in a development version of Mastodon and only on mastodon.social. Next will be the daredevil servers that run development code to be ahead of release in features.

But eventually, a new stable release will be rolled out with this feature. More and more servers will be upgraded to this new version with this feature. Once typical activist servers like beige.party introduce it, my prediction will come true.

I have family who have varying levels of blindness who consume media from all over the internet. All of them have been quite thrilled about the state of these new robot assistants we all now have such easy access to.

Specifically assigned "alt-text" is never necessary.

People who aren't sighted are usually happy about image-describing AI because it's better than nothing, and without image-describing AI, they've got literally nothing.

In fact, however, image-describing AI is just barely better than nothing, if at all. It describes stuff that doesn't matter. It doesn't describe stuff that does matter. Most importantly, it's unreliable and inaccurate. It hallucinates and describes stuff wrongly. However, people who aren't sufficiently sighted don't know. They can't verify whether what the AI says is true because they can't see the image well enough to be able to compare it with the description.

100% hand-written alt-text is always more reliable, more accurate and more fit for the context than AI-generated alt-text will ever be.

I know from first-hand experience. I've tasked an image-describing AI with describing an image which I've described manually with no AI help first, and then I've analysed the AI description and compared it with both the actual image and my descriptions. I've even done that twice. The results were abysmal.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon

@TeflonTrout :bc: he/him @Sharp Leaves Still, forcing Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's unwritten rules upon literally everyone in the Fediverse is bad.

Maybe you haven't heard about this yet, but: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. It has never been only Mastodon. It didn't even start with Mastodon. And it doesn't entirely work like Mastodon either.

For starters, this means that just because you see it on Mastodon, it didn't necessarily originate on Mastodon.

There are places in the Fediverse that are vastly older than Mastodon, and that are very different from Mastodon. Thus, they have their own culture, based on their own technology and their own features and where their users came from, and largely without any influences from Mastodon.

The oldest still existing server software in the Fediverse is not Mastodon from 2016. It's Friendica (https://friendi.ca, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendica, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Friendica). Friendica is essentially a mixture of a Facebook alternative and fully-featured long-form blogging. No Twitter or Mastodon influence anywhere. And Friendica first came out in May, 2010, five years and eight months before Mastodon.

Friendica did not intrude into the Mastodon Fediverse that was created by Eugen Rochko as a Mastodon-only network. Mastodon was born into an already existing Fediverse that consisted of at least Friendica, Hubzilla (https://hubzilla.org, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubzilla, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla) and GNU social (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_social; now defunct).

Here's how Friendica differs from Mastodon in ways that may disturb Mastodon hardliners:

• Mastodon is hard-coded to 500 characters. This character limit is deeply engrained into Mastodon's culture.
  Friendica doesn't have an arbitrary character limit; it's limited by the maximum size of the database field for the post text. Currently, this is 16,777,215 characters. Thus, Friendica doesn't have keeping messages short in its culture, it never has, and it never will.
• Mastodon users tend to be eager to block anyone who doesn't cut long posts into pieces of no more than 500 characters each.
  I know at least one Friendica veteran who blocks everyone upon first strike who does cut long posts into annoying strings of tiny chunks.
• Mastodon introduced a CW field in 2017.
  Friendica has had the exact same field as a summary/abstract field since its own beginning in 2010. That, and Friendica has always had a much more efficient way of handling CWs, one that Mastodon itself adopted with version 4.0 in October, 2022. Thus, by its technology and culture, Friendica users despise misusing their abstract field to force the same CW upon everyone out there with a hot, flaming passion.
  So if you see someone "misusing" the CW field for "a subject or a summary or whatever that is," that might not be a clueless Mastodon user. Instead, it might be a Friendica user who has been around for a dozen years longer than you, who is used to living by Friendica's culture, and who knows tons more about the Fediverse than you do.
• Friendica users are much less likely to add alt-texts to their images. That's for two reasons.
  One, Friendica's culture is not an idealised version of pre-Musk, very-left-wing Twitter's culture. It does not include attacking and punishing everyone who doesn't add 100% hand-written, 100% accurate, sufficiently detailed alt-texts to their images.
  Two, Friendica handles images drastically differently from Mastodon. Mastodon always has a nifty little entry field for alt-texts whenever you attach an image. On Friendica, images are embedded into posts rather than attached to them, like in a blog post. And oftentimes, you literally have to program the alt-text into the raw image embedding markup code.
• On Mastodon, it's considered intrusive and reply-guying to reply to someone who hasn't mentioned you, and to whom you aren't mutually connected. You couldn't possibly have received the toot that you're replying to otherwise.
  On Friendica, that's perfectly normal. Friendica doesn't show you single messages by default. It always shows you the entire conversation thread, all the way up to the start post, with all branches. Thus, neither Friendica's technology nor Friendica's culture rules out replying to any comment in the thread.
• Mastodon has only just introduced Twitter-style quote-posts a few months ago. With a safety feature that only works on Mastodon and GoToSocial for fear of that feature being used for harassment and dogpiling just like on Twitter. And because literally everyone on Mastodon comes from Twitter, it's actually being used for harassment and dogpiling.
  Friendica has had that very same feature since its inception in 2010, over a decade and a half longer. It has never not had this feature. It has always been able to quote-post any public message in the Fediverse. But since Friendica is not entirely populated by former Twitter users, it hasn't been used for harassment or dogpiling even once. It's only used to forward content. For most of the time, it literally was the only available way to forward a message.
• Mastodon users tend to be very protective and defensive about their allegedly Mastodon-only Fediverse.
  Friendica users are used to being able to connect with everything that moves and then some. It's one of Friendica's key features that it speaks a whole lot of protocols, not just ActivityPub.
  Whereas Mastodon users see Mastodon as a "decentralised walled garden", Friendica users see Friendica as the gateway to the whole federated social Web plus some places that aren't, strictly speaking, federated.
• Mastodon users will staunchly insist that "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" essentially mean the same because they believe they do. They will attack anyone who claims otherwise.
  Friendica users will staunchly insist that there's a huge difference between "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" because they actually know there is one. They will lecture anyone who claims otherwise.

Of course, from a Mastodon point of view, it's both tempting and fully justified to tell the Friendica users that this is the Mastodon Fediverse, and that they will have to adapt the Mastodon culture and abolish their own culture or be thrown out. But for one, Mastodon's culture doesn't fit Friendica's technology.

Besides, that'd literally be like European settlers holding Native Americans at gunpoint and forcing them to give up their own culture, adopt European culture and convert to Catholic Christianity or else. The only difference is that European settlers, unlike the Mastodon users, did not think that they were there first, and that everyone else is an intruder.

I mean, sure, go ahead and attack anyone who doesn't strictly live by Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's rules if you think you have to. But prepare for a whole lot of defence and even counter-attacks from Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, Sharkey, GoToSocial, Hollo, snac2, Mitra, Socialhome, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte and the rest of the non-Mastodon Fediverse.

CC: @Jan Wildeboer

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@🌱🏴‍🅰️🏳️‍⚧️🐧🔧📎 Ambiyelp Let me give you an example. Something that I've actually posted myself.

Here's the image (CW: eye contact): https://streams.elsmussols.net/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/ff28c33e-f633-4801-ad2b-c3dcd40d7bf9

Here's the alt-text:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Do you understand the image without explanations?

I guarantee you that there are loads of people who don't even understand the template, and that next to nobody out there understands the topic. Not without an explanation.

So here's the explanation in the post text, including a link to the corresponding KnowYourMeme page:

Explanation:

The image macro is based on the "Mine? Mine? Mine? Seagulls" meme template (link CW: eye contact; https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mine-mine-mine-seagulls).

OSgrid (https://osgrid.org) is a 3-D virtual world, based on OpenSimulator (http://opensimulator.org; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSimulator; https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/ba1b1cb6-7c18-410e-8752-df4b4face2e0), a free, open-source server-side re-implementation of the technology of Second Life (https://www.secondlife.com; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life). Like Second Life and all other OpenSimulator-based worlds, it is called a "grid" because it is divided into square regions bordering on each other.

Launched in July, 2007, OSgrid was the first public OpenSimulator grid, it is the oldest and one of the biggest by both land area and users. This means that while it's running bleeding-edge developer versions of OpenSimulator, it also carries around a whole lot of old ballast. It is notorious for going offline for maintenance and for this maintenance often lasting for a week or several, and it is just as notorious for going offline with no announcement and either only a very belated explanation by the admins or none at all.

The last prolonged downtime before this one was in 2025. It included OSgrid's entire asset server being wiped clean, and all avatars in OSgrid having their inventories emptied almost completely. It was scheduled, but due to OSgrid's instability at the time, it happened spontaneously and way ahead of schedule. The OSgrid admins could not say for how long OSgrid would be offline, but they estimated the downtime to exceed one month. In addition, for several years before that shutdown, each OSgrid shutdown had led to more and more lost assets already.

This drove many OSgrid residents away from OSgrid and to other OpenSimulator grids. Most of them, OSgrid included, are connected by the so-called Hypergrid which makes it possible for avatars from one grid to teleport to other grids, so it doesn't matter much which grid your avatar is registered on when you want to travel to certain locations or events. Many of those who had left OSgrid when it was offline returned after it went online again because the asset server had been promised to work as intended now.

Still, with OSgrid's track record of unreliability and, most importantly, losing assets, some residents fear that the current downtime might break more than it will fix. Not few think that if they've lost their whole inventories "unannounced" last time, they will lose their whole inventories actually unannounced this time. And so they're looking for a new home again.

Of course, this has the owners and admins of many other grids wishing for as many OSgrid residents as possible to join their grids. The advertising of other grids in the wake of OSgrid's downtime has already begun.

Now, there are people who say that linking to external explanations is ableist crap because that's inconvenient, and because these external websites may not be sufficiently accessible. Oh, and links don't work in alt-text (only that the above link went into the post text where links do work). So if you post something that needs to be explained, explain it yourself.

Sure, but that'll be an explanation of the "Mine? Mine? Mine? Seagulls" meme template. In addition, there will have to be one explanation for Reddit and one for reaction images because people won't understand the template explanation otherwise. On top of that, there will have to be an explanation for image boards, Futaba Channel and 4chan because people won't understand the reaction image explanation otherwise. In fact, I might also have to explain the film Finding Nemo.

For comparison, I've once posted something based on "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor". It was the only time I've explained the whole thing myself. That was one explanation for my image, six for the template, two for the topic (and that was actually Fediverse-related, but still obscure), that's nine altogether. I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings, the character Boromir and that particular situation. Still, that was 25,000 characters of explanation overall, half of which accounted for the six explanations for the template.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@🌱🏴‍🅰️🏳️‍⚧️🐧🔧📎 Ambiyelp I'm not talking about the visual description in the alt-text.

I'm talking about a wholly separate explanation in the post text body. Like, where you'd write the actual toot. Where you probably only have 500 characters. Where you wrote the above comment. It's there where I want to put the explanation.

The story behind this is as follows:

I keep reading from Mastodon users that alt-texts (yes, actual alt-texts in this case) are useful for sighted people, too, because alt-texts can give them explanations and help them understand what they're looking at. This means that images must not only be described, but also explained if necessary.

On the one hand, I keep telling Mastodon users again and again that explanations do not belong into the alt-text because there are people who can't access and read alt-texts; Mastodon users tend to be very defensive of using alt-texts to extend their 500-character limit by another 1,500 characters per image.

Still, on the other hand, this means that especially Mastodon users want images that they don't understand to come with explanations right away. In particular, neurodivergent people often need explanations, in-depth explanations even. It appears to have gotten to a point where posting an image that needs explanations without explanations is considered just as careless and almost as ableist as posting an image without accurate and sufficiently detailed alt-text.

At the same time, whenever I post an image of any kind, memes included, they're about such obscure topics that they need an explanation. Also, not everyone is always familiar with every meme template, so I have to give an explanation for the meme templates I've used as well. So I always explain whatever might need to be explained.

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@🌱🏴‍🅰️🏳️‍⚧️🐧🔧📎 Ambiyelp Question about describing memes, just to be on the safe side.

Let's assume my character limit is not 500, but practically unlimited. Like, tens of thousands of times higher than on Mastodon.

Let's also assume I don't have a problem with writing a whole lot of text, for while most of the Fediverse is fumbling around on a phone screen, I'm blind-typing on a hardware keyboard.

How would you recommend me to explain meme templates in the post text (in addition to the visual description + text transcripts in the alt-text)?

• not at all (leaves people clueless)
• with one link to KnowYourMeme per used template (links are inconvenient, and the linked websites aren't necessarily sufficiently accessible)
• no links, but a full, in-depth set of KnowYourMeme-level explanations down to the basics (that's 10,000+ extra characters in that one post)
• same, but chopped into bits of no more than 500 characters (that's a thread of 30, 40, 50, 60 or more short posts)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Tom Cole It is available everywhere AFAIK.

But: The convenient black "Alt" button in the corner is exclusive to Mastodon's Web interface plus maybe a few phone apps that have adopted it since. Technically speaking, a UI element to show alt-texts is completely unnecessary because alt-text is only a stand-in for the image itself, for when the image cannot be seen for whichever reason. The alt-text as an extra source of information is a purely Mastodon thing where people use it to expand their meagre 500-character limit by up to another 6,000 characters.

Just about everywhere else in the Fediverse, there is no button for showing alt-texts. That's also because there's nowhere in the Fediverse where people really need alt-texts to write around their tiny character limits, so that alt-texts can be what alt-texts are literally everywhere outside of Mastodon: a stand-in for the image and nothing more than that.

The normal way in the Fediverse (and other social networks and social media) for sighted people to access an alt-text is by moving the mouse cursor upon the image and hovering in there, and the alt-text pops up. The alt-text is the title tag at the same time. This has been the case on Mastodon before, I think, version 4.4 as well. I guess Mastodon changed that because just about everyone on Mastodon is on phones, and you don't have a mouse cursor on a phone, so you have to long-press on the image which is a not very intuitive thing to do.

Here on Hubzilla where I'm commenting from right now, the alt-text still is the title tag as well. In order to read an alt-text, the mouse cursor has to be hovered above the image. And Hubzilla has no alternative to its Web interface, only different themes for the Web interface. There is no phone app, at least none worth speaking of.

Also, on Hubzilla, we don't need to use alt-texts to write around character limits. Our character limit is 16,777,215, and that's the maximum size of the database field for the message text. Actually, on Hubzilla, alt-texts are included in these over 16 million characters as opposed to separate data fields. Thus, sighted Hubzilla users have no use for alt-texts whatsoever. Thus, there's no reason to make opening alt-texts easier (as if that was Hubzilla's only UI issue). Thus, there's no "Alt" button, and there will never be one.

It's just about the same just about everywhere else from Misskey (hard-coded 3,000 characters) to Akkoma (configurable 5,000 characters) to Friendica (same limit as Hubzilla) to (streams) and Forte (over 24 million characters) to pure long-form blogging stuff like WordPress, Ghost, Write Freely and Plume.

Now I ask you: What are people supposed to do whose both hands had to be amputated due to some accident? Or people with deformed hands who can neither use a smartphone nor a computer mouse nor a trackball nor any other pointing device on a computer? Who operate their computer with e.g. a headpointer, a plastic stick strapped to their forehead with which they poke the keys on their computer? And who are in the Fediverse, but not on Mastodon? How are they supposed to open an alt-text with only a keyboard as an input device?

Or how about people with a severe tremor? Who have big troubles moving a mouse cursor over an image and then keeping it there because it keeps slipping away? Who probably operate their computers via the keyboard and only the keyboard, too?

Or, a wholly different example, how about those who use Linux with a super-minimalist, keyboard-only tiling window manager? Who do have a GUI (albeit a very frugal one), who do use graphical Web browsers, but who deliberately, intentionaly, do not have any kind of pointing device? Who, nonetheless, are ten times faster with only keyboard shortcuts than you and me are with a mouse? How are they supposed to move a mouse cursor over an image without a mouse?

This is something that many Mastodon users don't know:

• Not all Fediverse frontends have an "Alt" button.
• "Alt" buttons make no sense in the non-Mastodon Fediverse. In the non-Mastodon Fediverse, the character limits are so high that nobody has to use alt-texts to write around them. Expanding the character limit with alt-texts is a 100% Mastodon-only thing that simply doesn't translate to places with thousands or millions of characters and never will.
• There are other disabilities out there than visual impairments and neurodivergence. Even in the Fediverse.
• Not everyone in the Fediverse uses a pointing device of whichever sorts.

Oh, and there's one more thing: Misskey and its various forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS, CherryPick etc.) all have a character limit of 512 for alt-texts. They should enforce it the same way as Mastodon enforces its 1,500-character limit for alt-texts, namely by truncating longer alt-texts. This is bad enough already.

However, they all have the same nasty bug that still hasn't been fixed yet AFAIK: Instead of truncating longer alt-texts, they delete them. So if you describe your image in an alt-text of more than 512 characters, users on Misskey, Sharkey & Co. will never know that your image is supposed to have an alt-text. Instead, they may think that you were too lazy to describe your image. And if you use the alt-text to explain your image in over 512 characters, this explanation will never reach users on Misskey, Sharkey & Co.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #i3 #i3wm #Disability #A11y #Accessibility

@Aljoscha Rittner (beandev)

* Bildbeschreibungen sollten beim Bild sein, nicht nur als Reply. Also sollte ein Autor den Text in den Ursprung-Post kopieren.

Was auch bedeutet, daß, wenn man eine zusätzliche Bildbeschreibung in den Post-Text tun will (z. B., weil man noch eine längere Bildbeschreibung braucht, oder weil Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes das empfiehlt), man diese zusätzliche Bildbeschreibung nicht auf einen Thread ausdehnen darf. Sie muß zwingend komplett in den Post passen, in dem auch das Bild ist.

Damit sind natürlich Langbeschreibungen auf Mastodon nicht machbar und je nach Länge auch bei einigen anderen auf Microblogging ausgerichteten Serveranwendungen nicht.

* Beschreibungen des Bots sind oft nicht hinreichend oder irreführend. Also nicht nur kopieren, sondern auch anpassen

Das sowieso. Ich weiß aus eigener Erfahrung, wie lückenhaft und fehlerhaft KI-Bildbeschreibungen oft sind.

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@h0uz3 @Aljoscha Rittner (beandev) Das hängt stark vom Aufwand ab, den man sich macht, und davon, wieviele Gedanken man sich beim Beschreiben der eigenen Bilder macht.

Nicht jeder ist zufrieden mit einem ganz kurzen Alt-Text, der 20 Sekunden auf einer Handytastatur gebraucht hat, als einziger Beschreibung des Bildes. Und nicht bei jedem Bild ist ein kurzer 20-Sekunden-Alt-Text absolut ausreichend.

Ich selbst poste nur drei Arten von Bildern (Suchen zwecklos, auf diesem Kanal, von dem ich hier jetzt gerade kommentiere, poste ich überhaupt keine Bilder mehr):

• Memes über das Fediverse
• Memes über virtuelle Welten
• Renderings aus sehr obskuren, fast komplett unbekannten virtuellen Welten

Bei den Memes mache ich mir schon etwas Gedanken über die rein visuelle Beschreibung, die dann in den Alt-Text geht. Das hält sich aber in Grenzen. Die notwendigen Erklärungen im Post-Text sind es, die das Posten von Memes aufwendig machen.

Bei den Bildern aus virtuellen Welten muß ich einen noch deutlich höheren Aufwand betreiben: Im Post-Text gibt es nicht einfach nur Erklärungen, sondern eine zweite, volldetaillierte visuelle Bildbeschreibung, die die notwendigen Erklärungen und mitunter auch etliche Text-Transkripte enthält. Auch die "kurze" visuelle Beschreibung im Alt-Text neigte früher dazu, sehr lang zu werden; in Zukunft werde ich meine Alt-Texte auf maximal 512 Zeichen beschränken, damit Misskey und die Forkeys sie nicht löschen.

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@Expertenkommision Cyberunfall @Aljoscha Rittner (beandev) Na ja, auf der einen Seite beispielsweise werden komplette Neulinge, aus deren Profil hervorgeht, daß sie erst seit ein paar Tagen dabei sind, als ableistisch beschimpft, weil sie zweimal Bilder gepostet haben ohne Beschreibung.

Dieses Kommunikationsproblem ist inzwischen so schlimm, daß es Server gibt, die in ihren Regeln stehen haben, daß Nichtmoderatoren sich nicht als irgendwelche Regelpolizei aufspielen dürfen. Daß Regeln a) nur von Moderatoren und b) nur gegenüber denen auf demselben Server durchgesetzt werden dürfen. Und weder von jedem noch gegenüber jedem.

Das heißt, wenn man jetzt als Mastodon-Nutzer z. B. einen Hubzilla-Nutzer zusammenscheißt, weil der sich nicht exakt an die Mastodon-Kultur, die ungeschriebenen Mastodon-Regeln und die eigenen Serverregeln hält, dann kann man auf einigen Servern dafür selbst auf den Deckel kriegen.

Andererseits bekommt man aber auch immer mal wieder Gegenwind von Leuten, denen man auch nur Vorschläge macht, wie Bildbeschreibungen allgemein und Alt-Texte ganz speziell (nein, das ist nicht dasselbe) besser gemacht werden können. Meines Erachtens kriegt man den sogar von beinharten Alt-Text-Polizisten, die sich umgekehrt auf gar keinen Fall sagen lassen wollen, wie sie selbst ihre Alt-Texte zu schreiben haben, geschweige denn, daß ihre Alt-Texte verbesserungswürdig sind.

Ich schätze, ein Problem ist, daß Mastodon-Neulingen das Fediverse nicht nur als in sich geschlossenes reines Mastodon-Netzwerk verkauft wird, sondern auch als große flauschige Kuschelecke, in der sich im Gegensatz zum Vogelkäfig alle immer ganz doll lieb haben. Wenn man mit dem Mindset ans Fediverse herangeht, dann ist sogar konstruktive Kritik auf einmal übergriffig, wenn man sie bekommt. Gleichzeitig darf man selbst so hart austeilen, wie man will, wenn es dazu dient, die eigenen Idealvorstellungen vom Fediverse durchzusetzen, nämlich genau diese Nur-Mastodon-Kuschelecke.

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@DopeGhoti @Andrew How many characters would be sufficient for Mastodon to not count as ableist anymore?

If you say, 1,500, who or what says that 1,500 characters are sufficient to describe any and all images, but a lower limit is not?

For comparison, look at my cover photo. The one with the weird building. I have a post with just about the same image in it; here's the link.

In this post, the image has two separate image descriptions. One is in the alt-text. The alt-text is exactly 1,500 characters long, a bit over 1,400 of which are image description. And that's the short description. It doesn't even have room for any text transcripts. It actually isn't much more than an "alibi description". It's only there because many people on Mastodon demand there be a 100% accurate and sufficiently detailed image description in the alt-text of each image in the Fediverse.

Only that "sufficiently detailed" isn't always possible even in 1,500 characters.

That's why there is an additional long description in the post text. It's sufficiently detailed, as in, fully detailed. An image like this requires a fully detailed description. It comes with transcripts of all bits of text within the borders of the image, and it comes with all explanations necessary to understand the image and the description. It's over 60,000 characters long.

Yes, over 60,000 characters in one post. Your character limit is 500. Mine is over 16 million.

Oh, and yes, it's guaranteed to be 100% hand-written. It took me two full days, morning to evening, to research for and write the long description with literally absolutely no help from any AI whatsoever. In fact, I've described details that no AI on the planet will ever be able to see in the image.

So ideally, all Fediverse server platforms should have two image description fields for each profile image, one being the alt-text behind the image, one being a long description next to the image. The latter should not have an arbitrarily-chosen character limit.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@Roknrol Well, I'm kind of afraid of being sanctioned for alt-texts that lack text transcripts, even if the additional long image description in the post text contains them. I mean, the rule says that text must always be transcribed, and the transcripts must always go into the alt-text. That, and not everyone may want to wade through a long description of 20,000 to 60,000 characters to read the transcripts.

Also, I go as far as transcribing more than 20 individual bits of text within one image, only two of which are actually halfway readable at the given resolution. About a dozen of these bits of text can be found in an area that's five pixels tall and a dozen pixels wide in the image. The individual bits of text are so tiny at this resolution that they're invisible in the image. And yet, I transcribe them because, technically, they're still within the borders of the image.

But as long as you don't say I could and should try harder...

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@Stefan Bohacek @Blorbo Admin Chicken Yes, I wish more servers had this rule and enforced it.

Officially appointed moderators only go by the server's written rules, and they only enforce them against local users.

The HOA, on the other hand, have some rules in their heads. Everyone has different rules. And they enforce them against everyone, even regardless of where everyone actually is. Like, they attack Friendica users for allegedly misusing the CW field because they neither know that these users are not on Mastodon, much less where they actually are, nor that Mastodon's CW field has been an abstract field on Friendica for seven years longer than it has been a CW field on Mastodon.

This is part of what makes the Fediverse a minefield once your messages start reaching Mastodon.

I can't say that I'll stop being so overly careful with everything and putting such a big effort particulary into image descriptions, summaries/content warnings and hashtags for filter-triggering purposes if more or even most Mastodon servers adopt and enforce this rule. The irony is that this rule actually protects my long hashtag lines.

In fact, rules like these also ought to include that nobody must be policed for writing "too long" posts because there are places in the Fediverse that neither have character limits to worry about nor a character-limiting culture.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CW #CWs #CWMeta #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #ContentWarningMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Hashtag #Hashtags #HashtagMeta #CWHashtagMeta #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta

@Kristian Na ja, Friendica war ja ausgereift. Zumindest soweit ausgereift, wie Friendica selbst und das DFRN-Protokoll es zuließen. Smartphone-Apps gab es nicht, weil man damals, 2010/2011, Smartphone-Apps für Sachen, die es auch als Websites gab, noch als Gimmicks ansah und noch nicht als lebensnotwendig. Das war, bevor die Leute gewisse Websites mehr über dedizierte Apps nutzten als über die Websites selbst.

Nur: Eine Weiterentwicklung war zwingend notwendig. Und die ging nicht mit Friendica, wie es war, denn die ging auch nicht mit DFRN.

Der Auslöser: 2011 waren binnen kurzer Zeit mehrere größere Friendica-Nodes von jetzt auf sofort ohne Ankündigung verschwunden. Einfach so weg. Friendica war durch das Verschwinden einiger weniger, aber jeweils sehr großer öffentlicher Nodes auf die Hälfte seiner Größe geschrumpft. Die andere Hälfte der Nutzer hatte alles verloren ohne die Chance, irgendwas zu retten. Die konnten wieder ganz neu bei null anfangen.

Das beste, was Mike an Friendica selbst machen konnte, war, eine Export- und Importfunktion einzubauen. Damit konnte man Backups des eigenen Konto machen. Das half aber nur, wenn man entweder brav ein tägliches Backup machte oder die Schließung eines Node vorher angekündigt wurde. Noch einmal: Genau das war 2011 nicht passiert. Die Nodes waren einfach futsch. Da hilft dir auch eine Backup-Funktion nicht, wenn du nicht laufend regelmäßig Backups machst.

Mike sah nur eine mögliche wirkliche Lösung. Und das war, indem deine Identität nicht bombenfest an einen Server gebunden ist, sondern simultan gleichzeitig als identische Klone auf mehreren unabhängigen Servern existieren kann. Wenn davon mal einer ausfällt, egal, die anderen laufen ja noch, also läuft deine Identität noch.

Problem: Mit DFRN ging das nicht umzusetzen. Es brauchte ein ganz neues Protokoll. Auch deshalb, weil Mike noch andere Verbesserungen im Kopf hatte wie ein nochmals deutlich aufgebohrtes Berechtigungssystem. Auch das ging mit DFRN so nicht und brauchte ein neues Protokoll. So entstand Zot.

Zum einen hieß ein neues Protokoll aber auch, wo auch immer das eingebaut werden soll, muß das komplette Backend ausgetauscht und neu geschrieben werden. Und große Teile des Frontend gleich mit. Das konnte Mike aber nicht auf Friendica im laufenden Betrieb machen. Friendica hätte unmöglich seine Grundfunktionalität gleichzeitig auf DFRN und auf Zot betreiben können. Und ein Protokollaustausch hätte bedeutet, daß Nodes, die die neue Friendica-Version mit Zot fahren, sich nicht mehr nativ hätten verbinden können mit Nodes, die alte Versionen mit DFRN fahren. Die wären zueinander inkompatibel gewesen.

Mike hatte als neue Entwicklungsplattform ja gerade das neue Red, das ein Fork seiner bisherigen "geheimen" Entwicklungsplattform Free-Friendika war. Das war ebenso "geheim", das konnte er also entsprechend umbauen.

Mike hätte aber niemals gleichzeitig Red komplett umbauen und Friendica selbst auf Free-Friendika weiterpflegen und die Weiterentwicklungen von Free-Friendika nach Friendica selbst bringen können. Und die einzige Alternative zum Umbau von Red auf Zot war, wieder solche Massencrashs wie 2011 mit exakt denselben Auswirkungen zu haben, ohne irgendwas tun zu können.

Also hat Mike sich auf Red konzentriert (dessen Umbau ja alleine schon länger dauern sollte als die Entwicklung von Friendica) und Friendica in die Hände von Tobias und Michael gegeben, die es seitdem nach ihren Vorstellungen weiterentwickeln. Die beiden waren ja meines Wissens sowieso schon Co-Entwickler von Friendica. Das hat Mike ja längst nicht mehr alles alleine gemacht.

Bei Red war das wieder anders. Das machte Mike ganz alleine. Das mußte er ja erstmal aufbauen. Und selbst als es fertig war, wurde es kaum angenommen. Es war zwar kein Geheimprojekt mehr, nachdem es sich von Friendica gelöst hatte. Aber es wurde kaum angenommen.

Auch als es umbenannt wurde in Red Matrix, was es leichter machte, es zu googlen, wurde es nicht angenommen. Die Friendica-Nutzer nahmen es wahr als Friendica mit nomadischer Identität. Was nomadische Identität ist, verstanden sie gar nicht. Selbst wenn doch: Die meisten von ihnen hatten inzwischen ihre eigenen privaten Einzelnutzer-Nodes.

So sahen sie in der Red Matrix gegenüber Friendica keine Vorteile, also warum umsteigen? Mal ganz davon abgesehen, daß Friendica und die Red Matrix nur über das diaspora*-Protokoll oder OStatus kommunizieren konnten. Die einzigen, die wechselten, dürften die gewesen sein, die eh immer das neueste, heißeste Zeug ausprobieren wollten.

Außerhalb von Friendica wußte eh keine Sau, daß die Red Matrix existierte. Herzlich wenige Leute wußten ja überhaupt auch nur, daß Friendica existierte. Mikes "Wenn du es baust, werden sie kommen" funktionierte damals schon nicht. Kleckerweise kamen noch neue Leute nach Friendica. Aber kaum einer ging von Friendica auf die Red Matrix, und absolut niemand ging von null auf die Red Matrix.

Interessant wurde die Red Matrix eigentlich erst 2015, als sie zu Hubzilla aufgebohrt wurde, also auf einmal Sachen konnte, die Friendica nicht konnte, die aber vielleicht nützlich sein konnten. Damit konnte Hubzilla auch für ganz andere Sachen eingesetzt werden als Friendica, also nicht nur als Facebook-Ersatz oder Blog.

Aber wenn Mario schon Anfang 2015 das noch brandneue Hubzilla übernahm, was ja so auf der offiziellen Website steht (nach meinen Informationen war es erst 2018), dann war es ein Wunder, daß Mike überhaupt jemanden fand, der übernehmen würde, der also schon seit Red-Matrix-Zeiten dabei war. Aber Mike hat ja an der Weiterentwicklung von Hubzilla noch weiter aktiv mitgewirkt, nur eben nicht als Projektleiter.

Hubzilla selbst wurde ja erst ab Ende 2015 interessant, als es seinen ersten stabilen Release hatte. Und auch Hubzillas Existenz war eigentlich nur auf Friendica bekannt. Selbst heute noch sind die allermeisten Hubzilla-Nutzer Friendica-Veteranen. Direkt von Mastodon nach Hubzilla ist kaum einer gekommen, von null nach Hubzilla schon gar nicht.

Selbst da war Mike keiner, der Sachen so läßt, wie sie sind, und sie nur noch weiter poliert. Wenn es etwas zu verbessern gibt, dann macht er das auch. Und wenn das nicht auf existierender Software im laufenden Produktivbetrieb geht, dann forkt er eben, und dann nimmt er sich weit mehr Zeit für seinen Fork als für das, was er vorher gemacht hatte. Und das ist auch gut so. Ansonsten hätten wir heute noch nur Friendica und immer noch keine Lösung für das Problem, daß die Leute alles verlieren, wenn mal wieder ein großer Node verschwindet.

Jetzt wollte Mike Zot weiterentwickeln, wohl auch deshalb, weil Zot, wie es damals war, nicht gut mit ActivityPub zusammenspielte. Aber potentiell kompatibilitätsbrechend. In einem eigenen zusätzlichen Branch von Hubzilla wäre das nicht gegangen, schon deshalb, weil Hubzilla für solche Experimente schlicht und ergreifend zu groß war.

Also hat Mike 2018 Osada von Hubzilla abgeforkt und alles rausgerissen, was im Weg war. Artikel, Karten, Wikis, Webpages, alle Verbindungsmöglichkeiten außer Zot, ActivityPub und RSS/Atom, alles raus.

Weil dann abzusehen war, daß nomadisches Zot6 (zumindest vorerst) mit ActivityPub überhaupt nicht mehr funktionieren würde, brauchte Mike zwei Projekte: Osada behielt ActivityPub, wurde aber nichtnomadisch. Zusätzlich forkte er Zap von Osada, ließ es nomadisch, entfernte aber ActivityPub.

Jetzt konnte Mike endgültig nicht gleichzeitig Zot6 entwickeln und Osada entwickeln und Zap entwickeln und Hubzilla weiterpflegen. Auch dieses Mal half ihm bei den Neuentwicklungen niemand. Also überließ er Hubzilla gänzlich Mario.

Wie es dann weiterging, lag nicht an Mikes Sprunghaftigkeit.

Anfang 2019 fand er einen Weg, auch nomadisches Zot6 mit ActivityPub kompatibel zu machen. Abgesehen davon war die Idee, einen nomadischen Zap-Kanal über einen nichtnomadischen Osada-Kanal mit dem Fediverse zu verbinden, sowieso kompletter Blödsinn und technisch in der Praxis kaum realisierbar, selbst mit Kanalquellen nicht. Also stellte Mike Osada ein, forkte von Zap ein ganz neues Osada und baute da ActivityPub-Support ein. Noch war nomadisches Zot6 + ActivityPub ja noch experimentell, deswegen hat er es nicht in Zap eingebaut.

Dann aber wurden Osada und Zap stabil und bekamen sogar einen 1.0-Release. Inzwischen gab es Leute, die Osada oder Zap produktiv nutzten. Die kamen alle von Hubzilla, denn nur da wußte man, daß es Osada und Zap gab. Nicht mal auf Friendica wußte das jemand, im übrigen Fediverse erst recht nicht und außerhalb des Fediverse schon gar nicht.

So baute Mike dann Osadas ActivityPub-Support auch in Zap ein, schaltete ihn aber standardmäßig auf Serverebene ab, auf Kanalebene sowieso. Das führte dazu, daß Osada und Zap bis auf das Branding und die Standardeinstellungen völlig identisch waren. Es brauchte gar nicht mehr beide. Mike ließ das aber so.

Irgendwie gab es wohl genug Osada- und Zap-Anwender, daß Mike jemanden fand, der beides weiterpflegen wollte. Denn Mike hatte wieder neue Weiterentwicklungen im Sinne, die er aber nicht mehr auf Osada und Zap machen konnte, weil die jetzt beide als stabile Produktivsoftware galten. So gab er Osada und Zap dann wieder an "die Community" weiter, die als quasi erste Amtshandlung mit Mikes Segen Osada nach Zap mergete, in dem Zuge auch auf Zap ActivityPub standardmäßig aktivierte und Osada kurzerhand einstellte.

2020 ging es dann weiter. Zap war damals State of the Art. Zot6 war so stabil, daß es nach Hubzilla zurückportiert wurde. Zap war jetzt quasi der modernere kleine Bruder von Hubzilla, der sich etwas eleganter bediente und einen nicht mit Features erschlug. Nur war Zap immer noch obskurer als Hubzilla, Hubzilla war obskurer als Friendica, und Friendica war selbst sehr obskur, weil für keins der drei wirklich Werbung gemacht wurde. Zap war weiterhin sonst nur auf Hubzilla bekannt und Hubzilla sonst nur auf Friendica.

Und Mike bastelte an Zot8, das nochmals besser werden sollte. Dafür brauchte er aber Software zum Experimentieren. Und so entstanden drei neue Forks in so kurzer Folge, daß heute nicht mehr bekannt ist, was jetzt wovon geforkt wurde, nur daß irgendwas von Zap geforkt worden ist. Im einzelnen waren das schon wieder ein neues Osada, ein neues Mistpark und eine neue Redmatrix.

Warum drei?

Es ging das Gerücht um, das seien verschiedene Stabilitätsstufen. Redmatrix 2020 sei experimentell mit wie früher bei Zap standardmäßig deaktiviertem ActivityPub, das damit der Entwicklung von Zot8 nicht im Wege stehe. Osada sei auch experimentell, aber wie früher schon bei Osada mit standardmäßig aktiviertem ActivityPub, um zu gucken, wie die Weiterentwicklungen von Zot8 sich mit ActivityPub vertragen. Mistpark 2020 wiederum sei "halbstabil" wie Debian testing, also stabiler als Osada und eher für den Produktiveinsatz geeignet, aber aktueller als Zap.

Zap sei also für die, die etwas neueres als Hubzilla haben wollten und auf die Zusatzfeatures von Hubzilla verzichten konnten. Misty sei für die, die etwas noch aktuelleres als Zap haben wollten, also das neueste Zeug noch früher, und die etwaige Instabilitäten in Kauf zu nehmen bereit waren. Osada sei für die, die unbedingt bleeding-edge wollten, instabil oder nicht. Und Redmatrix 2020 sei eh nur für Mike.

In Wahrheit waren Osada, Misty und Redmatrix 2020 bis auf das Branding völlig identisch und quasi Soft-Forks. Alle Commits wurden gleichermaßen und fast gleichzeitig in alle drei eingepflegt.

Warum?

Weil Mike der Markenfetischismus im Fediverse auf den Keks ging. Es gab Leute, die bildeten sich ein, die Software, die sie nutzten, sei die beste, einfach, weil sie Fans der Softwaremarke waren. Ganz besonders gab es die natürlich auf Mastodon, aber auch sonst. Genau diese Leute wollte er trollen, indem er drei bis auf den Namen und das Logo völlig identische Serveranwendungen pflegte. Misty z. B. konnte überhaupt nicht "die beste Fediverse-Serversoftware" sein, egal, wer sich das einbildete, wenn Osada und Redmatrix bis auf die Marke völlig baugleich waren.

Anfang 2021 kam dann Roadhouse dazu. Das Abenteuer Zot8 war im Grunde vorbei, bevor Zot8 stabil war. Denn Zot11 sollte noch besser werden. Vor allem sollte Zot11 von allen Zot-Versionen die beste Kompatibilität mit ActivityPub bekommen. Blöderweise konnte Mike aber Zot11 nicht auf Osada, Misty und Redmatrix entwickeln. Zot11 sollte nämlich zu allen Vorgängern so inkompatibel werden, daß es letztlich nicht mehr Zot heißen sollte. Aber es gab Leute, die Osada, Misty oder Redmatrix produktiv nutzten.

Also mußte Mike von einem von den dreien Roadhouse forken. War ihm aber egal, weil er damit die Leute mit noch einer weiteren Marke trollen konnte. Wohlgemerkt, effektiv hatte er sogar Zap noch an der Backe, weil es in der Community dann wohl doch zuwenig Interesse an der Weiterentwicklung gab.

Nomad, eigentlich ja Zot11, wurde zum Erfolg. Und das Erfolgsrezept lag auch darin, zusätzlich Support für Hubzillas Zot6 einzubauen, über den Roadhouse auch mit Osada, Misty und Redmatrix kommunizieren konnte. Ansonsten waren von den praktischen Features her Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix und Roadhouse identisch und von der Benutzeroberfläche her auch beinahe. Es machte in der Praxis keinen großen Unterschied, welches man nutzte. Außerhalb waren sie eh, wenn überhaupt, nur auf Hubzilla bekannt. Das heißt, Roadhouse war beinahe komplett unbekannt, weil da endgültig nur Mike drüber redete.

Daß es (streams) gibt, obwohl Roadhouse doch gut war, hatte andere Gründe.

Grund 1: Mike fand einen neuen Weg, die Markenfetischisten zu trollen. Nämlich mit Software, die gar keinen Namen und gar keine Markenidentität hat. Also nahm Mike dem neuen Roadhouse-Fork von Ende 2021 den Namen und sogar den fediverseinternen festen Identifikator weg. Letzteren kann man entweder händisch ausfüllen, oder (streams) übernimmt ihn vom Instanznamen. Alleine das wäre mit einem "Debranding" von Roadhouse nicht getan gewesen, weil weiter alle von "Roadhouse" gesprochen hätten.

Grund 2: Dieses ständige Wetteifern, welche Software auf The Federation, Fediverse Observer, der FediDB usw. jetzt am populärsten ist und am meisten genutzt wird, ging ihm inzwischen auch auf dem Zeiger. Ein weiteres "Feature" von (streams) ist, daß Mike neben dem Namen und der Markenidentität auch nodeinfo praktisch komplett entfernt hat. (streams) sendet überhaupt keine Statistiken und hält sich von allen Instanzlisten-Websites fern. Und das ist so gewollt.

Grund 3: Zusätzlich wollte Mike es der Free-Software- und Open-Source-Community leichter machen. Da kloppt man sich ja bekanntlich darum, welche Lizenzen wirklich frei sind und welche nicht. Also hat Mike (streams), dessen sämtliche Vorgänger unter der MIT-Lizenz stehen, in die Public Domain gestellt. Freier als das geht's nun wirklich nicht mehr. Gleichzeitig wollte Mike diejenigen ärgern, die vielleicht vorhaben könnten, aus (streams) proprietäre, kommerzielle Closed-Source-Software zu machen. Die ganzen Apps sind nämlich durchaus schon mal Fremdcode und stehen unter eigenen Lizenzen. Und die sind untereinander inkompatibel.

(streams) sollte stabil werden und wurde stabil. Im Grunde war Mikes Plan, (streams) zu der Fediverse-Software der Zukunft zu machen. So hat er am 31.12.2022 offiziell Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix und Roadhouse eingestellt. Das war aber kein Problem, denn zwischen den fünfen konnten Admins durch einfaches Rebasen nicht nur crossgraden, sondern auch zu (streams) upgraden.

Jetzt gab es nur noch Friendica, Hubzilla und (streams), wovon Mike nur noch (streams) betreute.

Dann kam ja silverpill auf Mike zu mit der Idee der nomadischen Identität über ActivityPub. Mike war interessiert. silverpill trieb das ziemlich voran inklusive dem einen oder anderen neuen FEP, darunter auch FEP-ef61, das in ActivityPub dezentrale Identitäten einführen sollte. Zot hat so etwas, Nomad natürlich auch, aber anders, und ActivityPub hatte das natürlich nicht.

Diese dezentralen Identitäten hat Mike auch in (streams) eingebaut. Langfristig sollte es ja möglich sein, zwischen verschiedenen Serveranwendungen zu klonen, so auch zwischen (streams) und Mitra. Zumindest aber sollten sie voneinander die dezentralen Identitäten als ebensolche verstehen. So sollte (streams) geklonte Mitra-Identitäten als solche erkennen, und Mitra sollte geklonte (streams)-Kanäle als solche erkennen.

Unter Laborbedingungen in Mikes nomadic-Zweig funktionierten die. Also mergete Mike im Juni 2024 den nomadic-Zweig in den dev-Zweig, den allgemeinen Entwicklungszweig. Auch der lief nur unter Laborbedingungen, weil (im Gegensatz zu Hubzilla, wo zwei öffentliche Produktivhubs Entwicklerversionen fahren) niemand außer Mike den dev-Zweig von (streams) produktiv fuhr.

Im Juli 2024 mergete Mike dann den dev-Zweig in den release-Zweig, um die neuesten Weiterentwicklungen an die produktiv gefahrenen, stabilen Server auszurollen. Da war allerdings Schluß mit Laborbedingungen. Jetzt mußten sich FEP-ef61 und die DIDs unter täglichen und breitgefächerten Realbedingungen beweisen.

Genau das taten sie nicht. Erst jetzt stellte sich heraus, daß (streams) mit den vielen Identitäten nicht klarkam. Es föderierte nicht mehr über ActivityPub. Es föderierte nicht mehr mit Hubzilla. Es föderierte nicht mal mehr mit sich selbst. Es konnte sich mit nichts mehr vernünftig verbinden.

Mike brauchte eine Weile, um überhaupt festzustellen, daß der Verursacher dieser Misere ein Identitätenchaos war. Das konnte er aber nicht auf (streams) selbst beheben. Hilfe hatte er auch keine. Die (streams)-Community war so winzig, da gab es niemanden, der ihm hätte helfen können. Der einzige, der die Fähigkeit gehabt hätte, hatte keine Zeit. Und der einzige, der Zeit und Bock hatte, hatte vom Coden keine Ahnung.

So mußte Mike sich erstmal einen Überblick verschaffen. Im August, also dem Monat nach dem Crash, als der Crash noch nicht behoben war, forkte er das streams-Repository und schuf Forte. Da wiederum riß er alles raus, was nicht ActivityPub war, also die Unterstützung sowohl von Nomad als auch von Zot6, um einen freien, ungehinderten Blick auf ActivityPub zu haben.

Inzwischen hatte er auch zwei andere Sachen gelernt: Software, die keinen Namen hat, interessiert keinen. Das verwirrt die Leute eher. Also bekam Forte wieder einen Namen. Die Public Domain brachte auch nichts. Also kam Forte wieder unter die MIT-Lizenz. Und Fediverse-Software, die überhaupt keine nodeinfo hat, ist praktisch unsichtbar. Also bekam Forte wieder nodeinfo, zunächst aber, ohne brauchbare Zahlen zu versenden. So konnte Forte zumindest vom Fediverse Observer und später vom FediIndex gelistet werden.

Forte half ihm, die ID-Misere zu entwirren, zu entflechten und zu lösen. Das reichte er dann auch nach (streams) weiter, das allmählich wieder funktionierte. Allerdings brannte er sich in dem August derart aus, daß er zum 31.8.2024 offiziell sowohl das streams-Repository als auch Forte zur Übernahme anbot und seinen Ruhestand ankündigte.

Dieses Mal fand eine Übernahme gleich gar nicht statt. Wie gesagt, in der (streams)-Community gab es niemanden, der sowohl die Zeit als auch das Know-how hatte, um auch nur Mike zu helfen, geschweige denn, eine Rolle wie Tobias oder Michael oder Mario anzunehmen.

Außerhalb von (streams) war (streams) selbst sogar auf Hubzilla kaum bekannt. Forte war sogar auf Hubzilla noch unbekannter, zumal es noch eine obskure, nichtöffentliche Bastelbude war, bis Mike im September 2024 die erste "offizielle" Entwicklerversion von Forte (und damit Forte selbst) veröffentlichte.

Und außerhalb von Hubzilla? Mike war es so leid, daß Mastodon als alternativlose Referenzimplementation des Fediverse angesehen wurde, daß er um 2023 anfing, Werbung für (streams) zu machen. Das erste Mal überhaupt, daß Mike von "wenn du es baust, werden sie kommen" abkam (es kam ja keiner) und irgendwas bewarb. Nur wußte Mike nicht, wie man zu Mastodon-Leuten spricht; ehrlich gesagt, das weiß auch auf Friendica und Hubzilla kaum jemand.

Oft genug ging aus Mikes Posts nicht mal hervor, daß er über ein konkretes Fediverse-Produkt sprach, und schon gar nicht, über welches. Wie auch, sprach er doch von etwas Namenlosem. Das heißt, auch er fing langsam an, den Namen des Repository zu verwenden. Aber er machte nicht unbedingt wirklich glasklar, daß er von etwas sprach, das jetzt in diesem Augenblick im Fediverse existierte. Schon gar nicht erwähnte er, daß es auch mit Mastodon verbunden ist, denn kaum jemand außerhalb von Mastodon weiß, daß Mastodon-Nutzer das nicht unbedingt automatisch verstehen.

Stand Mitte September 2024 hatte (streams) keine 100 aktiven Nutzer und Forte außer Mike gar keine. Traurigerweise hatte (streams) damals mehr öffentliche Server als heute, derweil Forte anderthalb Jahre gebraucht hat, um auch nur einen hervorzubringen. Wo sollen da Entwickler herkommen?

Mike hat übrigens nicht vor, (streams) einzustellen. Er und nicht nur er sagt, (streams) hat weiterhin seine Existenzberechtigung, und zwar als moderne Fediverse-Software, die von ActivityPub unabhängig ist. Er und nicht nur er sieht den ActivityPub-Schalter als eine Art letztes Bollwerk gegen Mastodon an und das einzige, das auf Kanalebene funktioniert, also nicht nur serverweit.

So, nun noch das Wort zu Smartphone-Apps.

Von Mike selbst war da nie etwas zu erwarten. Fediverse-Apps sind reine Frontend-Sachen. Und wir sollten inzwischen wissen, daß Mike nicht mal Web-UIs kann. Hubzilla ist für seine Oberfläche berüchtigt. Es ist doch erst schick geworden, als Saiwal mit seinen Utsukta-Themes anfing.

Außerdem hatte Mike immer schon genügend mit Webentwicklung zu tun. Da konnte man von ihm nicht auch noch erwarten, eine Smartphone-App zu entwickeln. Besser gesagt, zwei Smartphone-Apps, weil die iOS-App wahrscheinlich separat hätte entwickelt werden müssen. Mike wäre ja auch keiner gewesen, der in einer Smartphone-App nur das nötigste an Features eingebaut hätte. Wenn, dann alles. Er hätte also neben der Serversoftware zwei ziemliche Monster-Apps entwickeln und pflegen müssen.

Apps von Drittentwicklern?

Guck dir mal an, wie lange es gedauert hat, bis es von RaccoonForFriendica einen öffentlich verfügbaren Android-Release gab. Für iOS ist es meines Wissens bis heute nur über TestDrive verfügbar, aber nicht im App Store. Und selbst auf Android ist es noch nicht so stabil und fully featured, daß man es als Daily Driver nutzen könnte.

Für Hubzilla gab es mal Nomad für Android. Das wird seit gut sechs Jahren nicht mehr weiterentwickelt. Unter aktuellen Android-Versionen läuft es inzwischen gar nicht mehr. Und auch das ist nur ein Wrapper für die Weboberfläche, also ein glorifizierter Webbrowser. Ansonsten gibt's nur eine Minimalst-App von Mario, mit der er mal versuchsweise getestet hat, ob man von Android aus nach Hubzilla posten kann. Das ist absolut das einzige, was die App überhaupt kann.

Hubzilla hat eine Client API. Ob die aber funktioniert, ist weitestgehend unbekannt, weil noch nie jemand versucht hat, dagegen eine hinreichend mit Features ausgestattete App zu bauen. Dasselbe dürfte für (streams) und Forte gelten, für die es überhaupt noch nie irgendwelche Apps gegeben hat. Alle drei setzen statt dessen auf den Einsatz als PWA, nur daß da draußen keine Sau weiß, daß es das überhaupt gibt, geschweige denn, wie man das einrichtet.

Auf Drittentwickler kann man hier erst recht nicht hoffen. Von den Leuten im Fediverse, die Smartphone-Apps entwickeln können, kennt genau niemand Hubzilla, geschweige denn (streams) oder Forte. Selbst wenn sie Hubzilla kennenlernen würden, hätten sie keinen Bock, dafür eine App zu entwickeln. Lohnt sich nicht, weil nutzt keiner. Es lohnt sich viel mehr, die drölfzigtausendste reine Mastodon-App fürs iPhone zu bauen. Das heißt, mindestens die Hälfte von denen weiß doch sowieso nicht, was es außer Mastodon sonst noch so im Fediverse gibt.

Auf Hubzilla selbst gibt's nicht einen Mobilentwickler. Auf (streams) und Forte dürfte es niemanden geben, der überhaupt wirklich irgendwas entwickeln kann, nicht mal Webanwendungen (sonst hätte Mike Hilfe), Smartphone-Apps schon gar nicht.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #DFRN #Zot #Zot6 #Zot8 #Nomad #Mistpark #Friendica #RedMatrix #Hubzilla #Osada #Zap #Roadhouse #Streams #(streams) #Forte

@silverpill Would be interesting to add Hubzilla's Zot6 and (streams)' Nomad (which would be Zot12 if it wasn't incompatible with Zot6) to the list.

By the way: Forte doesn't require a gateway to communicate with non-nomadic ActivityPub. A fully cloned Forte channel can communicate with a Mastodon account without jumping through hoops. Remember that Forte has almost fully-featured Hubzilla-level nomadic identity (i.e. everything except real-time syncing between channel instances; unlike Hubzilla and (streams) which do sync in real time, it needs a cronjob for that) directly built into its core.

(streams) does support nomadic identity via ActivityPub. But internally, it uses and relies upon Nomad for its nomadic identity. It only supports nomadic identity via ActivityPub a) because it was used as a development platform for just this and b) in order to be able to understand cloned nomadic ActivityPub actors elsewhere. This is also why it isn't possible to move from (streams) to Forte, to move from Forte to (streams) or to clone between (streams) and Forte.

(streams) itself doesn't require gateways to communicate with Mastodon & Co. either. It speaks three protocols natively: its own Nomad, Hubzilla's Zot6 and (optionally, but on by default) standard ActivityPub.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity

@「 Jürgen 」:fedi_mastodon: @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts @Don di Dislessia Soweit ich weiß, war es so (man möge mich wiederum korrigieren; kursiv sind die "Forkeys höheren Grades", die nicht von Misskey geforkt wurden):

• Misskey
  Der Ursprung in Japan.
• Calckey
  Soft-Fork von Misskey mit einigen Extrafeatures.
  Entwickler hatte irgendwann keine Zeit/keinen Bock mehr.
• Firefish
  Fortführung von Calckey unter neuem Management. Wurde aufgrund einer massiven Werbeaktion eines begeisterten Nutzers mit viel Reichweite so populär, daß der Name "Calckey" irgendwann einfach doof war und das ganze Ding eine neue Identität bekam.
  Entwickler verschwand irgendwann sang- und klanglos von der Bildfläche. Nach einem halben Jahr stellte sich raus: Entwickler hatte wegen Abschlußarbeit usw. keine Zeit mehr, nicht mal, sich zu verabschieden.
  Wurde unter neuer Führung mit neuem Repository und neuer Leuchtturminstanz weitergeführt, aber ohne neue Website. Wurde wieder eingestellt, weil es für eine einzige Entwicklerin viel zuviel war, die ganzen alten Co-Entwickler von Firefish alle zu Iceshrimp gewechselt waren und keine neuen Mitentwickler angeheuert werden konnten.
• Iceshrimp
  Fork von Firefish von ehemaligen Firefish-Entwicklern. Rebased nach Misskey, weil es auf Firefish nicht weiterging. Erklärtes Ziel war, Stabilität über Calckeys Featuritis zu stellen.
  Weil Misskeys Codebase an sich einiges an grundsätzlichen Macken hatte, wurde beschlossen, es ist einfacher, das ganze Zeugs von Grund auf neu zu schreiben, als zu versuchen, das alles auszubügeln. Und bei der Gelegenheit wollte man von JavaScript (TypeScript und Vue.js) weg. Also hat man angefangen, das ganze Ding in C# neu zu schreiben als Iceshrimp.NET. Ziel ist featuremäßige Deckungsgleichheit mit dem bisherigen Iceshrimp und gleichzeitig Anpassung an Mastodon. Iceshrimp.NET ist noch sehr unfertig.
  Bei der Gelegenheit wurde das alte Iceshrimp in Iceshrimp-JS umbenannt und in den Wartungsmodus versetzt = gibt keine Weiterentwicklung und keine neuen Features mehr, nur Sicherheitspatches und evtl. Bugfixes.
• Catodon
  Soft-Fork von Firefish. Ziel war, ein Forkey zu haben, das sich in der Bedienung wie Mastodon anfühlt. Quasi Mastodon-Fassade mit *key-Struktur dahinter. Also ein Forkey für den möglichst leichten Umstieg von Mastodon nach *key.
  Wurde, als Firefish endgültig eingestellt wurde und damit die Basis tot war, nach Iceshrimp rebased.
  Nachdem Iceshrimp zu Iceshrimp-JS wurde und in den Wartungsmodus ging, hatte Catodon ein Problem: Man kann nicht einfach von etwas, das in TypeScript und Vue.js geschrieben ist, nach etwas rebasen, das in C# geschrieben ist (Iceshrimp.NET). Und zur Weiterentwicklung wäre ein Rebase nötig gewesen, weil man jetzt wieder eine fast tote Basis hatte. Aber nach Misskey wollte man nicht (siehe Hajkey weiter unten), und Sharkey war einerseits zu mächtig und andererseits zu kapriziös.
  Inzwischen gehen Catodon die Instanzen ein. Die meisten dürften geschlossen worden sein.
• Sharkey
  Soft-Fork von Misskey mit dem Ziel, so ziemlich alles, was je für Forkeys an Features entwickelt worden war, in einen einzigen Forkey zu packen und noch mehr obendrauf.
  Quasi das Yang zu Iceshrimps Yin. Machte lange den Eindruck, als gingen Features über Zuverlässigkeit. Sharkeys Implementation der Mastodon Client API war schon regelrecht legendär schlecht, und alle hofften auf den Retter, der daherkommt und die Implementation von Grund auf neu schreibt, weil sie als unrettbar im Eimer galt. Inzwischen soll Sharkey seine Zuverlässigkeit im Griff haben, zumindest insofern, wie auch Misskey zuverlässig ist.
  Die Entwickler haben eine zweifelhafte Reputation. Unter anderem haben sie Crowdfunding-Gelder für einen Sharkey-Server gesammelt und von dem Geld einen Minecraft-Server aufgezogen, aber keinen Sharkey-Server. Mitunter wird deshalb zum Boykott von Sharkey aufgerufen.
• CherryPick
  Südkoreanischer Soft-Fork von Misskey. Tatsächlich älter als Sharkey, mindestens von 2021, aber später wurde wohl einiges von Sharkey nach CherryPick portiert. Das Ziel war, einen stabilen und zuverlässigen Forkey zu haben ohne die Macken von Sharkey und sogar ohne die Macken von Misskey, der aber gleichzeitig gut Features hat. Das ist wohl sogar weitestgehend gelungen.
  Vom ästhetischen Stil her so ähnlich, wie Misskey früher mal war, also sehr auf den japanischen bzw. südkoreanischen Geschmack ausgelegt: bunt, grell, poppig, genki, kawaii. Alleine das zeigt, daß CherryPick von Misskey geforkt wurde, bevor Misskey gänzlich an den westlichen Geschmack angepaßt wurde.
  Unklar, ob es Entwickler hat, die Englisch verstehen bzw. schreiben können; falls nicht, dann als Soft-Fork-Basis ungeeignet. Wäre ohne die Kommunikationsbarriere vermutlich der ultimative *key.
  Mein letzter Stand: Bis auf eine Instanz im Großraum Washington, D.C. gibt es CherryPick-Instanzen nur in den Großräumen Tokyo und Seoul. War deshalb lange Zeit im westlichen Fediverse fast unbekannt.
• FoundKey
  Wohl der erste Forkey, der in PascalCase geschrieben wurde.
  Meines Wissens direkter Soft-Fork von Misskey. Wird tatsächlich (oh Wunder) kleckerweise gepflegt, aber nicht für Instanzen mit mehr als 20 Nutzern empfohlen.

Ein paar andere *keys:

• Hajkey
  Soft-Fork von Calckey, der meines Wissens erst nach Firefish und dann nach Misskey rebased wurde. Wurde exklusiv nur für eine einzige Instanz entwickelt: transfem.social. Inzwischen eingestellt, weil wohl der Aufwand, so einen Wolpertinger nur für eine Instanz zu pflegen (man rebaset nicht mal eben von Firefish nach Misskey), zu groß war. transfem.social wurde entsprechend auf Sharkey umgestellt und ist da jetzt eine der größten Instanzen.
• Neko
  Soft-Fork von Misskey mit dem Ziel, es tauglich für Docker zu machen. Laut Repository nur für eine einzige Instanz gebaut. Ist nie released worden, was aber Wurscht ist, wenn es eh nur einen Admin als Zielgruppe hatte. git fetch können Releases nämlich piepegal sein.
• Meisskey
  Japanischer Soft-Fork von Misskey von 2019 (!), der aber lange Zeit der Weiterentwicklung der Basis hinterherhinkte. Wird tatsächlich immer noch weiterentwickelt.
• Leisskey
  Wiederum japanischer Soft-Fork von Meisskey. Ist seit mindestens 2021 in Entwicklung, seit Februar 2023 aber eine ewige Beta, weil es seit damals keinen Release mehr gegeben hat. Dürfte zu den letzten noch in Entwicklung befindlichen "Forkeys 2. Grades" gehören.
• Tanukey
  Weiterer japanischer Soft-Fork von Misskey und daher so obskur im Westen, daß man schon die Websuche anstrengen muß, um das Repository zu finden (ist wohl im letzten Oktober von GitHub nach GitLab umgezogen). Noch ein Beispiel für *keys, bei denen selbst das Wissen über ihre Existenz Ostasien kaum je verlassen hat.
• Backspacekey
  Noch ein ambitionierter, aber eingeschlafener westlicher Misskey-Soft-Fork.

Siehe übrigens auch die Delightful Fediverse Experience: hier und hier.

Verglichen damit ist die Familie von Mistpark bis Forte schon wieder übersichtlich, vor allem, wenn die anderen mehreren Dutzend toten Forkeys mit dazugeholt werden. Immerhin stammt von Mistpark bis Forte über etwa 15 Jahre alles vom selben Schöpfer, der einfach nur sein eigenes Zeug geforkt hat.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #IceshrimpJS #Iceshrimp.NET #Catodon #Sharkey #CherryPick #FoundKey #Hajkey #Neko #Meisskey #Leisskey #Tanukey #Backspacekey

@tux0r :openbsd: "Forkey" bezeichnet Forks von Misskey, Forks von Forks von Misskey usw.

Iceshrimp.NET fällt da nicht drunter, weil es komplett neu geschrieben wird. Es ist vom Funktionsumfang her noch ziemlich mager. Das Ziel des Rewrite war, soweit ich weiß, zum einen, die Macken loszuwerden, die alle Forkeys von Misskey geerbt hatten, und zum anderen von JavaScript wegzukommen (Misskey und alle Forkeys sind in TypeScript und Vue.js geschrieben).

Aber gut, es gibt auch viele, die sich nicht vorstellen können, daß gute Serversoftware in PHP geschrieben sein kann. Mike Macgirvin entwickelt seit jeher in PHP. Und was er baut, ist nicht nur sehr mächtig und fortschrittlich, sondern auch noch leicht zu installieren und zu administrieren und weniger leistungshungrig als Mastodon.

Relatierter Memepost auf meinem Fediverse-Meme-Kanal.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp.NET

@Herr TurTur @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts @tux0r :openbsd: Die Idee hinter Sharkey war mal, in einen einzigen Forkey quasi alles auf einmal reinzuschmeißen bis hin zur Küchenspüle. Das fiel vor allem auf, als es noch mehr lebendige Forkeys zur Auswahl gab.

Und in der Zeit hatte Sharkey auch noch gewisse Macken, z. B. eine schon legendär unzuverlässige Implementation der Mastodon Client API, wo es hieß, am besten setzt sich einer hin und schreibt die neu. Wer was Zuverlässiges wollte, setzte damals auf Iceshrimp. Sharkey war für wagemutige Spielkinder, die sich an Hubzilla nicht rantrauten.

Inzwischen ist Calckey tot, Firefish ist tot, Iceshrimp-JS ist im Wartungsmodus (Iceshrimp.NET ist derweil noch meilenweit von "fertig" entfernt), Catodon ist auch schon siech, und das nur für eine Instanz gebaute Hajkey ist schon verwest.

CherryPick hat fast nur Server in den Großräumen Tokyo und Seoul und fühlt sich so auf den ostasiatischen Geschmack ausgelegt an wie vor ein paar Jahren noch Misskey selbst. Vielleicht erinnern sich ein paar noch daran, wie Misskey mal den Charme japanischer Verkaufsautomaten hatte.

Und der ganze noch lebende Rest scheint selbst mit Misskeys Entwicklung nicht mithalten zu können, also im Kern veraltet zu sein.

Derweil ist Sharkey wohl inzwischen ziemlich zuverlässig. So ist es zumindest im Westen zum einzigen noch nennenswerten Forkey avanciert.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Sharkey #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Iceshrimp.NET #Catodon #Hajkey #CherryPick

@Gaming on the Fediverse That's quite a bit simplified. For one, four server applications and one protocol were lumped together. Besides, Zap is dead, and Forte isn't even mentioned.

So here's an attempt at telling the whole story (server applications are in bold type, protocols are in bold type and italics):

tl;dr:

2010:

• DFRN
• Mistpark/Friendika/Friendica
  (DFRN)

2011:

• Zot
• Free-Friendika
  (DFRN)
  (forked from Friendika)
• several other Friendika forks
  (DFRN)
  (forked from Friendika)
  (discontinued 2011)
• Red/Red Matrix
  (DFRN, from 2012 Zot)
  (forked from Free-Friendika)
  (rebuilt into Hubzilla 2015)

2015:

• Hubzilla
  (Zot, later Zot6)
  (rebuilt from the Red Matrix)

2018:

Zot6
• Osada
  (Zot6)
  (forked from Hubzilla)
  (discontinued in 2018)
• Zap
  (Zot6)
  (forked most likely from Osada, maybe from Hubzilla)
  (discontinued in 2022)
• Osada
  (Zot6)
  (forked from Zap)
  (discontinued in 2019)

2020:

Zot8
• Redmatrix 2020
  (Zot8)
  (forked from either Zap or Mistpark 2020 or (the third) Osada)
  (discontinued in 2022)
• Mistpark 2020 a.k.a. Misty
  (Zot8)
  (forked from either Zap or Redmatrix 2020 or (the third) Osada)
  (discontinued in 2022)
• Osada
  (Zot8)
  (forked from either Zap or Redmatrix 2020 or Mistpark 2020)
  (discontinued in 2022)

2022:

• Nomad
  (originally Zot11)
• Roadhouse
  (Nomad)
  (forked from either Redmatrix 2020 or Mistpark 2020 or (the third) Osada)
  (discontinued in 2022)
• (streams)
  (Nomad)
  (forked from Roadhouse)

2024:
Forte
(ActivityPub)
(forked from (streams))[/list]
So as far as Fediverse server applications go, he created Friendica, Free-Friendika, a few more Friendika forks, the Red Matrix, Hubzilla, three Osadas, Zap, Redmatrix 2020, Mistpark 2020, Roadhouse, (streams) and Forte. Depending on how you want to count them, that's at least 13 or 14 server applications. Four of these are still being maintained (Friendica by a new team, Hubzilla by another new team, (streams) and Forte by himself).

The long version:

In 2010, he created

• the DFRN protocol
• Mistpark (renamed first into Friendika later in 2010 and then into Friendica in 2011)

In 2011, he made several forks of Friendika. The reason was licensing: Friendika was getting quite some attention. As it was under the MIT license, chances were that it was tempting to fork it and turn the fork into a commercial, proprietary, closed-source monolith or something. On the other hand, the GPL in any shape or form would have hindered further development.

So Mike made a number of forks and relicensed all but one: Free-Friendika kept the MIT license and became the main development platform for Friendika. Friendika itself was relicensed under the AGPLv3.

Shortly afterwards, Mike discontinued all forks except Free-Friendika.

The same year, Mike needed something to keep people from losing everything whenever their Friendika home node was shut down. So he invented nomadic identity and created the Zot protocol.

Also the same year, Mike forked Free-Friendika into Red (spanish la red = the network). It would be renamed Red Matrix in late 2012 because "Red" is hard to Google.

In 2012, Mike rewrote Red almost completely. The whole backend was rebuilt against Zot.

However, the Red Matrix didn't take off. Most Friendica users were hosting their own private nodes. Nomadic identity made no sense for them. Besides, it seemed like many Friendica users didn't understand nomadic identity anyway, so they saw no advantage in the Red Matrix over Friendica, seeing as the features were almost identical otherwise. The Red Matrix had to be made more popular for hosting public servers.

So in 2015, the Red Matrix was rebuilt and greatly expanded into Hubzilla.

In 2018, Mike wanted to develop the Zot protocol further into Zot6. But this would have meant compatibility-breaking changes, also because what he wanted to do with nomadic identity over Zot6 was likely to not work with non-nomadic protocols anymore. So he couldn't do that on Hubzilla.

Instead, he made two new forks:

• first Osada, forked from Hubzilla, which was the original Zot6 development platform and then evolved into a non-nomadic "gateway" between Zot6 and everything else
• then Zap, forked most likely from Osada or maybe from Hubzilla, which got the whole Zot6 feature set, including nomadic identity, but which lost support for any and all non-nomadic protocols

A bit later, Zot6 became compatible enough with non-nomadic protocols. Forwarding content from Zap via Osada to the rest of the Fediverse was clunky anyway, forwarding content from the rest of the Fediverse via Osada to Zap even more so. So Osada was discontinued.

Instead, a new Osada was forked from Zap and got ActivityPub support. This and the branding were the only differences between Osada and Zap.

In 2019, when both Osada and Zap had become stable, Zap got ActivityPub support itself. The only difference between the two was now that Osada servers had ActivityPub turned on by default, and Zap servers had it turned off by default. It simply didn't make much sense to keep both alive, so Osada was discontinued again.

I think it was also in 2019 that Hubzilla was upgraded to Zot6.

In 2020, Mike made three more forks to develop Zot8, at least one of which was forked from Zap, and those that weren't were forked from one another: Redmatrix 2020, Mistpark 2020 a.k.a. Misty and Osada.

There was a rumour that Zap was the stable one, Misty was a bit more up-to-date, but potentially less stable, Osada was experimental with ActivityPub support on by default, and Redmatrix 2020 was experimental with ActivityPub support off by default. In fact, however, Misty, Osada and Redmatrix 2020 were absolutely identical in all but branding. Mike kept four server applications around to mess with brand fetishists.

In 2022, Mike forked one of the three into Roadhouse to develop Zot11. But Zot11 was no longer compatible with Zot6 as implemented on Hubzilla and Zap, so he declared it a new protocol named Nomad. Roadhouse got additional support for Zot6.

Now Mike had five server applications, still in order to mess with brand fetishists.

Later the same year, Mike forked Roadhouse into something intentionally nameless and brandless. Again, this was done to troll brand fetishists, this time also to facilitate forking and make people think up their own individual names for the fork rather than keeping the existing one. However, the code repository absolutely required a name, so Mike called it streams.

The community needed something to name this nameless thing by, so they took the name of the repository and wrapped it in parentheses to make sure that this is not actually the name. Ever since, it is colloquially being called (streams). By the way, (streams) is running on what would be Zot12 if it wasn't Nomad now.

On New Year's Eve 2022, Mike discontinued Zap, Redmatrix 2020, Misty, Osada and Roadhouse. (streams) was stable enough, and the other five could be upgraded not only to each other by rebasing the server code, but also to (streams). He asked all admins of Zap, Redmatrix 2020, Misty, Osada and Roadhouse servers to upgrade to (streams).

In 2024, (streams) got bogged down by some identity confusion after the stable release branch introduced decentralised IDs as per FEP-ef61, a part of the development of nomadic identity via ActivityPub. Partially in order to be able to sort this out, partially because the time seemed to have come for this to actually work, Mike forked the streams repository into Forte and removed all support for any protocols other than ActivityPub while still keeping it nomadic. And so Forte became the very first Fediverse server application that establishes nomadic identity via ActivityPub.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #DFRN #Zot #Zot6 #Zot8 #Nomad #Mistpark #Friendika #FreeFriendika #Friendica #Red #RedMatrix #Hubzilla #Osada #Zap #Redmatrix2020 #Mistpark2020 #Misty #Roadhouse #Streams #(streams) #Forte

@Thomas Eibich aka DK2NB

Bauen die Workshops aufeinander auf oder kann man auch einfach so mal vorbei kommen?

Wir haben jedes Mal Leute dabei, die zum ersten Mal bei der Sprechstunde sind und häufig auch erst seit kurzem überhaupt im Fediverse. Das ist also kein Problem. Und da baut auch nichts aufeinander auf.

Was ist Hubzilla?

Oh, da muß ich weit ausholen. (Ich kommentiere übrigens gerade von Hubzilla.)

Hubzilla ist das absolute, ultimative Featuremonster im Fediverse. Eine Art Alleskönner, der Features hat, die für die allermeisten Fediverse-Nutzer im Fediverse völlig unvorstellbar sind, aber auch Features, die sich viele im Fediverse wünschen. Wohlgemerkt, ohne zu wissen, daß es diese Features im Fediverse längst gibt.

Hubzilla ist im Prinzip "Facebook trifft WordPress trifft Google Cloud Services trifft noch mehr Zeug" im Fediverse, und es kann mit wenigen Mausklicks aufgebohrt werden zu "Facebook trifft WordPress trifft Google Cloud Services trifft Joplin trifft GeoCities trifft <irgendeine Wiki-Engine hier einsetzen> trifft noch mehr Zeug" im Fediverse. Ja, GeoCities. Man kann buchstäblich Webseiten auf Hubzilla aufbauen.

Hier sind ein paar Links:

• offizielle Website (die übrigens selbst auf Hubzilla läuft)
• Wikipedia auf Deutsch (zugegeben, das Lemma ist nicht sehr gut)
• GNULinux.ch: Hubzilla, die mächtige ungeschminkte Königin des Fediverse
• Ein paar Tabellen, in denen ich Mastodon vergleiche mit Friendica (Hubzilla-Vorfahr), Hubzilla selbst, (streams) und Forte (zwei Hubzilla-Nachfahren)

Hubzilla ist übrigens älter als Mastodon.

Hubzillas Vater ist @Mike McCue , ein pensionierter professioneller Software-Entwickler mit fast einem halben Jahrhundert an Erfahrung. Der hat schon 2010, noch vor dem in dem Sommer in den Himmel gehypeten diaspora*, eine extrem vielseitige und extrem leistungsfähige freie, quelloffene, dezentrale Facebook-Alternative gestartet, die ursprünglich Mistpark hieß und heute als Friendica bekannt ist. Die gibt's heute hoch, sie ist Teil des Fediverse, und sie ist mit Mastodon föderiert, seit es Mastodon gibt.

Friendica ist kein Facebook-Klon, sondern eine Facebook-Alternative, die grundsätzlich dieselbe Funktion haben soll wie Facebook, aber besser als Facebook ist. Friendica kann nebenher auch genutzt werden als vollwertiges Blogging-System mit allen Schikanen: Titel, Zusammenfassung, Kategorien, alles Mögliche an Textformatierung, beliebig viele Bilder mitten im Text eingebettet, über 16 Millionen Zeichen.

Friendica wurde aufgebaut auf seinem eigenen Protokoll namens DFRN. Aber ein Killerfeature von Friendica war schon immer, daß es sich in alle möglichen und unmöglichen anderen Richtungen verbinden kann: Fediverse, diaspora*, Tumblr, WordPress, sogar Twitter, ein paar Jahre sogar Facebook und so weiter.

So ganz zufrieden war er damit aber nicht. Ein großes Problem war nämlich, daß jedes Mal, wenn ein öffentlicher Friendica-Node dichtmachte, die Nutzer alles verloren. Auf die Lösung kam er 2011: nomadische Identität, also die Möglichkeit, die eigene Social-Networking-Identität gleichzeitig voll synchron auf mehreren Servern zu haben.

Dafür entwickelte er ab 2011 ein neues Protokoll names Zot, das genau diese Funktion bieten sollte. Um es zu implementieren, forkte Mike noch 2011 einen Friendica-Fork, den er im selben Jahr erstellt hatte, um mit verschiedenen Lizenzen zu experimentieren. (Deswegen steht Friendica heute unter der AGPLv3 und die meisten seiner "Nachfahren" weiterhin unter der MIT-Lizenz.)

So entstand etwas namens "Red" (von spanisch "la red" = "das Netzwerk"). 2012 wurde es komplett neu geschrieben gegen das Zot-Protokoll. Das war der eigentliche Startschuß für Hubzilla. Damals gab Mike übrigens Friendica (das inzwischen auf die AGPLv3 relizensierte Original) an die Community ab. Ende 2012 wurde Red umbenannt in "Red Matrix", weil man "Red" nicht googlen kann.

Allerdings wurde die Red Matrix kaum angenommen, weil sie im Grunde Friendica mit vielleicht ein oder zwei weniger Verbindungsmöglichkeiten und nomadischer Identität war. Die meisten verstanden nomadische Identität aber gar nicht, und von denen, die sie verstanden, glaubten viele, sie gar nicht zu brauchen, weil sie eh ihr Friendica-Konto auf ihrem eigenen Node hatten.

So gab es dann im März 2015 den Schnitt. Mike und seine Mitstreiter aus der Community nahmen die Red Matrix und strickten sie um für neue Zielgruppen, insbesondere Betreiber öffentlicher Server. Dafür wurden haufenweise neue, teilweise optionale Features drangebaut: WebDAV für den eingebauten Filespace, ein CalDAV-Server, der das Frontend des Eventkalenders mitnutzt, ein CardDAV-Server, nichtföderierende Artikel, Planungskarten, Wikis, Webseiten usw. usf. Und das Ganze wurde umbenannt in Hubzilla.

Wir sind übrigens immer noch zehn Monate vor dem Start von Mastodon.

Standardmäßig föderiert Hubzilla nur über sein eigenes Zot-Protokoll. Es unterstützt immer noch einiges an nichtnomadischen Protokollen und Verbindungen, aber alles, was nichtnomadisch und bidirektional ist, ist optional und standardmäßig deaktiviert, muß also in einem neuen Kanal erst aktiviert werden. Darunter fällt auch ActivityPub, das Hubzilla seit Juli 2017 als allererste Software überhaupt implementiert hat, zwei Monate noch vor Mastodon.

Damit war aber das Ende der Fahnenstange noch nicht erreicht.

Mike wollte das Zot-Protokoll noch weiter entwickeln, und zwar auf Arten und Weisen, die möglicherweise die Kompatibilität beeinträchtigten. Das konnte er nicht auf Hubzilla selbst machen.

Also gab er 2018 Hubzilla ab an zwei Entwickler aus der Community und forkte es. Erst kam Osada, das wohl zunächst als Entwicklungsplattform für Zot6 dienen sollte, aber trotzdem noch die meisten von Hubzillas Verbindungsmöglichkeiten hatte. Bei Osada wurde übrigens fast alles wieder entfernt, was beim Umbau von der Red Matrix zu Hubzilla dazugekommen war.

Wie es aber zunächst aussah, würde Zot6 nicht mit nichtnomadischen Protokollen zusammenspielen können. So entstand als zweiter Fork Zap; ich glaube heute, Zap war ein Fork von Osada und nicht von Hubzilla. Jedenfalls behielt Osada die ganzen Verbindungsmöglichkeiten, verlor aber nomadische Identitäten. Zap wiederum blieb nomadisch, unterstützte aber nur Zot6.

Schließlich stellte sich heraus: Zot6 konnte sehr wohl mit nichtnomadischen Protokollen zusammenspielen. Also wurde Osada, wie es war, Anfang 2019 eingestampft. Die Idee, einen Osada-Kanal als Gateway zwischen Zap und dem Rest des Fediverse zu haben, war sowieso gaga und wenig praktikabel. Dafür wurde von Zap kurz darauf ein zweites Osada geforkt, das sich zumindest wieder mit ActivityPub verbinden konnte. Das war zunächst der einzige Unterschied zwischen Osada und Zap.

Im Laufe des Jahres wurden Osada und Zap stabil. Das heißt auch, Osada war so stabil, daß es keinen Grund mehr gab, warum Zap kein ActivityPub können sollte. Kurz darauf war der einzige Unterschied zwischen Osada und Zap neben dem Branding, daß auf Osada-Servern ActivityPub standardmäßig aktiviert und auf Zap-Servern standardmäßig deaktiviert war. Weil auch das Käse war und nur unnötigen Mehraufwand in der Entwicklung mit sich brachte, wurde das zweite Osada im Herbst 2019 komplett in Zap gemerget und eingestellt.

Weil Zap jetzt aber ein stabiler Daily Driver war, brauchte Mike wieder neue Entwicklungsplattformen für Zot8. Dafür wurden 2020 ein drittes Osada, Mistpark 2020 (alias Misty) und Redmatrix 2020 geforkt. Es gab das Gerücht, daß sie verschiedene Stabilitätsstufen darstellten. Tatsächlich waren sie bis auf das Branding identisch, und es waren deshalb drei, weil Mike damit die Markenfetischisten im Fediverse trollen wollte.

Einen stabilen Release mit Zot8 gab es nie. Statt dessen kam im Frühjahr 2021 Roadhouse dazu als Fork von einem von den dreien. Das basierte eigentlich schon auf Zot11, aber Zot11 war zu Zot6 in keinster Weise mehr kompatibel. Also entschied sich Mike, das Protokoll in Nomad umzubenennen. Heute sagt Mike, alle Versionen des Protokolls heißen jetzt Nomad; die Hubzilla-Entwickler widersprechen ihm aber und sagen, Zot6 ist immer noch Zot.

Jetzt hatte Mike fünf Projekte, die unterschiedliche Protokollversionen nutzte, ansonsten aber dasselbe konnten und fast dasselbe UI hatten.

Up- und Crossgrades gingen übrigens ganz einfach, in dem die Codebase des Servers umgestellt wurde. Man konnte von Zap nach Osada, Misty und Redmatrix 2020 upgraden. Man konnte zumindest zwischen Osada, Misty und Redmatrix 2020 hin und her crossgraden. Und man konnte von allen vieren nach Roadhouse upgraden.

Im Oktober 2011 forkte Mike Roadhouse in wieder etwas Neues. Dieses Mal ging er in eine ganz andere Richtung: Was er jetzt erschaffen hatte, hatte keinen Namen. Es hatte kein Logo. Es hatte keine Markenidentität. Es war auch kein Projekt mehr. Alles mit voller Absicht und sehr gut begründet. Noch dazu nahm er sogar die MIT-Lizenz weg und stellte es direktweg in die Public Domain. Damit wollte er noch größere Anreize für Entwickler schaffen, es zu forken, um daraus etwas Eigenes zu bauen.

Das Code-Repository brauchte aber zwingend einen Namen. Also wurde es "streams" genannt (ein Stream ist von Friendica bis heute das, was auf Twitter ein Feed und auf Mastodon eine Timeline ist). Weil nun aber die Community etwas brauchte, womit sie diese neue Software bezeichnen konnte, nahm sie den Namen des Repository und packten ihn in Klammern, um klarzustellen, daß das nicht der Name der Software war. Seitdem wird es seitens der Community "(streams)" genannt.

Von Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix 2020 und Roadhouse konnte durch Rebasen auf (streams) geupgradet werden. Weil (streams) selbst aber keinen Namen, kein Branding und nicht mal einen festgelegten Identifier für den Servertyp hat, übernahm es kurzerhand den Server-Identifier und das Logo von der vorherigen Software. Ich habe selbst mal einen (streams)-Server gesehen, der mit Zap angefangen hatte (wie aus der Subdomain hervorging) und zwischendurch mal Misty war (weil er als Misty gebrandet war), aber vom UI und von der Softwareversion her eindeutig (streams) war.

Zum Silvesterabend 2020 stellte Mike dann Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix 2020 und Roadhouse ein. Wer noch einen Server betrieb, dem war dazu geraten, auf (streams) upzugraden.

(streams) wird heute noch von Mike weiterentwickelt. An Verbindungsmöglichkeiten hat es neben Nomad auch Hubzillas Zot6 und optional, aber standardmäßig aktiviert ActivityPub. Sogar RSS- und Atom-Feeds werden nicht mehr unterstützt, um den Entwicklungsaufwand zu reduzieren.

Der letzte Fork kam im August 2024. Mike war ja damals einer der beiden Entwickler, die an nomadischer Identität über ActivityPub arbeiteten. Im Zuge dieser Entwicklung rollte Mike Portable Objects nach FEP-ef61 im Juni vom "nomadischen" Zweig von (streams) in den hauptsächlichen Entwicklungszweig und im Juli von da in den stabilen Zweig aus. Was im Labor aber funktioniert hatte, sorgte im täglichen Einsatz für Chaos, weil (streams) zuviele verschiedene Identitäten zu jonglieren hatte.

Also forkte Mike (streams) im August zu Forte, entfernte jegliche Unterstützung für Nomad und Zot6 und basierte das ganze Ding komplett auf ActivityPub, und zwar inklusive nomadischer Identität. Das dürfte hauptsächlich passiert sein, um die Nomad- und Zot6-Identitäten loswerden zu können, um das Chaos sichten zu können, aber auch, weil nomadische Identität über ActivityPub die Zukunft sein soll.

Zum 31. August warf Mike erst alle Brocken hin und wollte mit Entwicklung aufhören, weil das alles ein Riesenaufwand war. Er machte aber trotzdem weiter, weil sich in der winzigen (streams)-Community niemand fand, der (streams) und das noch instabile Forte hätte übernehmen können.

Im September wurde erstmals ein Post von Forte durch das öffentliche Fediverse föderiert. Von da an gab es die ersten, die mit ihren eigenen Forte-Servern experimentierten. Und im März 2025 erklärte Mike Forte offiziell für stabil. (streams) lebt aber weiter, denn sein Killerfeature gegenüber Forte ist, daß es ActivityPub nicht braucht. Man kann es also als Zugbrücke verwenden, um das ganze ActivityPub-basierte Fediverse auf einen Schlag auszusperren.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Mistpark #Friendica #Red #RedMatrix #Hubzilla #Osada #Zap #Mistpark2020 #Misty #Redmatrix2020 #Roadhouse #Streams #(streams) #Forte

@Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 Not to my knowledge.

First of all, nomadic identity won't be described in one single FEP that'll cover everything. It was not created on and for ActivityPub. In fact, the concept predates ActivityPub by some six years, and the first implementation predates ActivityPub by some five years.

See, nomadic identity started as an idea. Then Mike built a brand-new protocol around that idea, Zot. Then, in 2012, Mike forked one of his own forks of his own software that is now known as Friendica, originally based on yet protocol designed by himself, and re-wrote the whole thing against Zot. That's how the software was born that's known as Hubzilla now.

As for nomadic identity via ActivityPub, there is only one publicly available software implementation for that. And that's Mike's own Forte. Forte still does everything the Hubzilla/(streams) way which is very very different from how anything else in the Fediverse works, even including Friendica itself, and especially including Mastodon.

Whereas Zot was designed around nomadic identity, ActivityPub isn't. It's having nomadic identity bolted on with a whole slew of FEPs authored by @silverpill who is working on converting Mitra (typical Fediverse software: built only against ActivityPub, non-nomadic, login/account equals identity) into something that's every bit as nomadic as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Nomadic identity via ActivityPub was originally silverpill's idea, by the way. And that was in 2023. It turned out that this was actually doable, and so he and Mike started working on it, using experimental "nomadic" branches of Mitra and the streams repository respectively. Their approaches were naturally different: silverpill had to make something non-nomadic nomadic. Mike had to make something nomadic be nomadic using a protocol that wasn't made for nomadic identity.

Not only is silverpill's approach much more difficult because Mitra wasn't made for nomadic identity either, but he also took it upon himself to put everything into FEPs by and by. He is still publishing FEP after FEP. Nomadic identity is quite a complex thing from a "Fediverse equals ActivityPub" point of view; it's just that the Hubzilla/(streams) bubble is so used to it whereas silverpill actually has to explore and research something that's natural to Mike.

There's no common set of commands either. There can't be any. Forte, like everything else in the family all the way back to Friendica, is written in PHP. Mitra is written in Rust. Nobody has ever attempted to make something not written in PHP nomadic.

In fact, code sharing would be next to impossible anyway: Forte, like Hubzilla and early Mistpark/Friendika, is published under the MIT license, (streams) is in the public domain, but Mitra is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL v3. Any code coming out of Mitra's conversion to nomadicity would be AGPL-licensed Rust code. And MIT-licensed PHP code that was created when turning Nomad-based (streams) into ActivityPub-based, Nomad-less Forte would be useless for non-nomadic-to-nomadic conversions anyway.

So don't expect any how-to's or the like for converting non-nomadic, ActivityPub-only-by-original-design, login/account-equals-identity Fediverse server software to the same level of nomadicity as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte until

• the first stable release of Mitra with full support for that level of nomadicity is officially rolled out
• silverpill declares that everything necessary for Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte-level nomadic identity via nothing but ActivityPub is cast into FEPs and finalised

Seeing as this has been in the making for some two years now, and I don't even know if the experimental nomadic branch of Mitra even allows cloning right now, I guess this will be a long way to go. He may actually first have to change Mitra from the standard Fediverse model of the account and the login being the identity to Hubzilla's, (streams)' and Forte's model of the identity being a container inside your account and one account being able to host multiple such identities. That's because you can't clone logins.

Oh, by the way, nomadic identity is not just about moving. It's not "moving-your-Mastodon-account-to-another-instance on coke". It's way more.

The core feature is cloning. Imagine you have full, live, hot backups of your Mastodon account on one, two, three, four or more other Mastodon instances. Imagine they all have the same identity, based on which one of them is your main instance. Imagine whatever happens on one of them is sync'd to the others in near-real-time. Imagine you can log into either of them and use either of them all the same, regardless of how many and which of the servers are actually online, as long as at least one is.

Moving is actually even more complex than cloning because it involves both cloning and changing the main instance of your identity.

Allow me to illustrate by supposing Mastodon works like Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

• Situation:
  
  • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with one channel, [email protected].
  • You want to move to troet.cafe.
• Step 1: You create an account on troet.cafe.
• Step 2: There can't be accounts with no channels. You have to add a channel.
  So you choose to move your channel [email protected] from digitalcourage.social to troet.cafe.
• Step 3: Your channel [email protected] is cloned over to troet.cafe.
• Situation now:
  
  • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with the main instance of your channel; its identity is [email protected].
  • You have an account on troet.cafe with a clone of your channel; its identity is still [email protected].
• Step 4: All data on your channel is synchronised over from your main instance on digitalcourage.social to your clone on troet.cafe. Posts, images, other files, followers, followed, settings, lists, filters etc. etc. pp. Everything.
• Now the main instance and the clone are identical.
  Up until here, the process of moving is the same as the process of cloning. What follow is exclusive to moving.
• Step 5:
  
  • The clone on troet.cafe is promoted to main instance.
  • As there can be only one main instance for each channel, the former main instance on digitalcourage.social is demoted to clone.
• Situation now:
  
  • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with a clone of your channel, formerly the main instance; its identity is [email protected].
  • You have an account on troet.cafe with the main instance of your channel, formerly a clone; its identity is [email protected].
• Step 6: All your connections on servers of nomadic software are changed from [email protected] to [email protected], both locally on the servers that you are on and locally on the servers that they are on.
• Step 7 (AFAIK, this only happens on (streams) and Forte in reality): All your outbound connections ("followed") on servers running non-nomadic software receive a follow request from [email protected] which, to them, is an all-new, independent identity.
• The actually move is done. What follows is the clean-up that really makes the move a move, namely taking care that nothing is left behind in the old location.
• Step 8: When these last steps are finalised, your clone on digitalcourage.social is deleted. After all, you wanted to move, not to clone.
• Step 9: As your account on digitalcourage.social has no channel on it anymore, the whole account is deleted.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mitra #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #FEP #MovingInstances #Clone #Clones

@Ben Pate 🤘🏻 Let's just say the only devs who need full identity portability are silverpill and you, and silverpill is actively working on it.

Then there are Mike, Mario Vavti and Harald Eilertsen who have full identity portability.

All the other devs don't seem to care.

As for the users, however... I guess if Mastodon 4.5 went fully nomadic on Forte's scale, people would kiss Gargron's feet because he'd deliver what they've been craving for for so long. For not exactly few of them, this would be what they've been wishing for for years plus cream and a cherry on top.

And if all the various *keys (at least those that are still maintained) went nomadic on a cross-server-type scale, that'd solve the problem with entire Forkeys going belly-up and leaving its users standing in the rain with unmaintained server software. I mean, I guess we all know how volatile Forkeys tend to be. Not only could people move around from server to server with ease and take everything with them, but they could also try out new Forkeys (this explicitly includes Iceshrimp.NET) and still have clones on longer-lived applications like Sharkey, CherryPick or good old Misskey itself as fallbacks.

In fact, I think one reason for Sharkey's popularity is its import/export capability.

CC: @Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 @Johannes Ernst @Tim Chambers

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #CherryPick #Sharkey #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #NomadicIdentity

@Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸 The Mastodon devs are talking as if either the Fediverse is only Mastodon, or the Fediverse as a whole doesn't have quote-posts.

Neither of this is true. The Fediverse has had quote-posts since July 2nd, 2010 when Mistpark (now known as Friendica) was launched. Mastodon toots have been quote-post-able since Mastodon itself was launched, for when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with at least two Fediverse server applications that have quote-posts, namely Friendica and Hubzilla, a fork of a fork of Friendica by Friendica's own creator.

Nowadays, at least Pleroma, Akkoma, all other Pleroma forks, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, CherryPick, Sharkey, all other Misskey forks, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can quote-post Mastodon toots with no problem.

And Mastodon won't be able to stop them. No, seriously, it won't. Not with a non-standard, proprietary, home-brew opt-in or opt-out switch that doesn't tie into anything that the other Fediverse server apps have. And whatever switch Mastodon is working on will not tie into anything that already exists.

Let me put it this way: Hubzilla has the second-most advanced and fine-grained permissions system in the Fediverse. It goes well beyond most people's imagination. It works on three levels: for the whole channel (that's similar to a Mastodon account), for individual contacts (that's "followers" in Mastodon lingo, but Hubzilla doesn't distinguish between followers and followed), for individual content. (streams) and Forte are the only ones with an even more advanced and fine-grained permissions system.

But even they don't have a quote-post permission setting. And they have permission settings for just about everything. You want reply control in the Fediverse? Hubzilla has reply control, and (streams) and Forte have reply control on steroids. But what they don't have is a quote-posting permission because that's next to impossible to control across the Fediverse even with the most advanced permissions system.

As @Mike Macgirvin ?️ (professional software developer for almost half a century, designer of two Fediverse protocols, creator of Friendica and Hubzilla, inventor of nomadic identity, creator and maintainer of (streams) and Forte) says: The only way to make your posts un-quote-post-able is by not posting in public and not allowing everyone in the Fediverse full access to your posts. Set your "Who can quote" however you want, I'll always be able to quote-post all your public posts with no problem and with no resistance.

So what chance does Mastodon have then? Mastodon which doesn't even know what permissions are? Developed by Eugen Rochko who actually has a history of head-butting with Mike Macgirvin, and who would never take any step towards anything that Mike has ever developed?

I'm commenting from Hubzilla right now, and I'm also on (streams). And I can tell you: If you make any of your posts "un-quote-post-able", this still won't make my Share buttons on Hubzilla and (streams) disappear.

CC: @Stefan Bohacek @FinchHaven sfba

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #CherryPick #Sharkey #Mitra #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate