#cwalttextmeta — Public Fediverse posts

@Danny Boling ☮️ @ADHDeanASL I'm already trying my best. I'm probably way ahead of your requirements. And I'm still constantly trying to up my game and be ahead of everyone's requirements.

I've been "studying" alt-texts and image descriptions both generally and in the Fediverse/in Mastodon's culture for a few years. I've read over 50 alt-text guides on the Web; here's a list I've compiled, complete with links: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Other(20)resources(20)on(20)image(20)descriptions(20)and(20)alt-text.

In case the page behind this link wasn't obvious enough: Yes, I'm working on a wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse. I take this topic that seriously. As it stands now, I have a bit over 30 rules that had better or actually must be followed when describing images and writing alt-texts in and for the Fediverse.

When I post images, I try hard to follow all these rules. I take into consideration who may receive my image post, what they know about what's in the image, what they don't know, what they may want to know and how curious they may potentially be about the topic, and I write my image descriptions accordingly. I also take the special culture in the Fediverse and particularly on Mastodon into consideration, especially Mastodon's fondness of very detailed image descriptions as well as Mastodon's dislike of having to ask for further information; at least I perceive the latter.

This is also why I rarely post images anymore. (Don't go looking for recent images on this channel that I'm commenting from right now. I've quit posting images here two years ago. I post them elsewhere in the Fediverse now and even that only rarely.) Posting and describing images properly is a huge undertaking if your image posts are all about super-obscure topics. And mine are.

The only images I've posted over the last two years are memes. They're fairly easy to handle. They only need one visual description, ideally a fairly short one even, and it goes into the alt-text. Still, they require explanations if folks won't understand them right off the bat. And they certainly won't understand my memes about the Fediverse or about very obscure 3-D virtual worlds.

In order to keep my meme posts a bit less extensive, I resort to linking to KnowYourMeme for explanations of meme templates. The alternative that many would prefer would be for me to explain the meme templates in the post, but that would add another five-digit number of characters to the post. Been there, actually done that: "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" required over 12,000 characters of explanation.

I'd also post renderings from the 3-D virtual worlds that I sometimes meme about. But the effort to do so is a whole lot bigger. That's because I describe each one of my virtual world renderings twice. One is the "short" description that goes into the alt-text. The other one is the "long", actually fully detailed description that goes into the message text. The latter contains transcripts of all bits of text within the borders of the image, readable in the image or not. It also contains all explanations necessary to understand the image and its descriptions.

I haven't posted any virtual world renderings in two years now. I've been working on and off on a series of simple avatar portraits in slightly different outfits for over a year and a half now, and even the first image with three portraits isn't done yet, much less all four image for the first post or actually all images in the series.

My personal record of fairly uninterrupted image-describing is two full days, once for three images with some 73,000 characters of long descriptions, once for a single image with over 60,000 characters of long description. The latter does not include distilling the short description for the alt-text from the long description; I had to do that the morning of the third day.

Why they have to be that long? Here's my explanation: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/95b6e36d-7fcd-4791-8cc1-c93e8b9975a3.

Unfortunately, I don't have any example of a 3-D virtual world rendering that's recent enough that the image descriptions aren't painfully outdated.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Danny Boling ☮️ @ADHDeanASL I'm already trying my best. I'm probably way ahead of your requirements. And I'm still constantly trying to up my game and be ahead of everyone's requirements.

I've been "studying" alt-texts and image descriptions both generally and in the Fediverse/in Mastodon's culture for a few years. I've read over 50 alt-text guides on the Web; here's a list I've compiled, complete with links: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Other(20)resources(20)on(20)image(20)descriptions(20)and(20)alt-text.

In case the page behind this link wasn't obvious enough: Yes, I'm working on a wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse. I take this topic that seriously. As it stands now, I have a bit over 30 rules that had better or actually must be followed when describing images and writing alt-texts in and for the Fediverse.

When I post images, I try hard to follow all these rules. I take into consideration who may receive my image post, what they know about what's in the image, what they don't know, what they may want to know and how curious they may potentially be about the topic, and I write my image descriptions accordingly. I also take the special culture in the Fediverse and particularly on Mastodon into consideration, especially Mastodon's fondness of very detailed image descriptions as well as Mastodon's dislike of having to ask for further information; at least I perceive the latter.

This is also why I rarely post images anymore. (Don't go looking for recent images on this channel that I'm commenting from right now. I've quit posting images here two years ago. I post them elsewhere in the Fediverse now and even that only rarely.) Posting and describing images properly is a huge undertaking if your image posts are all about super-obscure topics. And mine are.

The only images I've posted over the last two years are memes. They're fairly easy to handle. They only need one visual description, ideally a fairly short one even, and it goes into the alt-text. Still, they require explanations if folks won't understand them right off the bat. And they certainly won't understand my memes about the Fediverse or about very obscure 3-D virtual worlds.

In order to keep my meme posts a bit less extensive, I resort to linking to KnowYourMeme for explanations of meme templates. The alternative that many would prefer would be for me to explain the meme templates in the post, but that would add another five-digit number of characters to the post. Been there, actually done that: "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" required over 12,000 characters of explanation.

I'd also post renderings from the 3-D virtual worlds that I sometimes meme about. But the effort to do so is a whole lot bigger. That's because I describe each one of my virtual world renderings twice. One is the "short" description that goes into the alt-text. The other one is the "long", actually fully detailed description that goes into the message text. The latter contains transcripts of all bits of text within the borders of the image, readable in the image or not. It also contains all explanations necessary to understand the image and its descriptions.

I haven't posted any virtual world renderings in two years now. I've been working on and off on a series of simple avatar portraits in slightly different outfits for over a year and a half now, and even the first image with three portraits isn't done yet, much less all four image for the first post or actually all images in the series.

My personal record of fairly uninterrupted image-describing is two full days, once for three images with some 73,000 characters of long descriptions, once for a single image with over 60,000 characters of long description. The latter does not include distilling the short description for the alt-text from the long description; I had to do that the morning of the third day.

Why they have to be that long? Here's my explanation: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/95b6e36d-7fcd-4791-8cc1-c93e8b9975a3.

Unfortunately, I don't have any example of a 3-D virtual world rendering that's recent enough that the image descriptions aren't painfully outdated.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@calends :trantifa: 🏴️ Line breaks and the quotation marks from your keyboard are both terrible ideas in alt-text. Both are not officially count as elements supported in alt-text, and especially line breaks in alt-text are an invention by complete laypeople on Mastodon.



Line breaks are a bad idea because screen readers will consider each paragraph in your alt-text an individual alt-text for an individual image. And screen readers tend to start reading out alt-texts for images with something like, "Graphic."

So if your alt-text has three paragraphs, a screen reader will start reading out each one with, "Graphic."

Reference #1: Steve Faulkner (@Steve Faulkner), Short note on coding alt-text, TPGI, September 15th, 2015; https://www.tpgi.com/short-note-on-coding-alt-text/.

Reference #2: Adrian Roselli, Long alt, adrianroselli.com, April 20th, 2024, last update November 8th, 2024; https://adrianroselli.com/2024/04/long-alt.html



Double quotes from your keyboard are an even worse idea. That's because they can make certain Fediverse server applications malfunction. I'm not even joking here.

First of all, there's Hubzilla, the most feature-rich Fediverse server software of all and one of the most technologically advanced (https://hubzilla.org; https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla). I'm commenting from Hubzilla right now.

When there are keyboard double quotes in an alt-text, Hubzilla renders them as their corresponding HTML entities: ". A screen reader will read them out as something like, "And quot," and raise its voice afterwards unless a full stop follows.

And then there are (streams) (https://codeberg.org/streams/streams; https://joinfediverse.wiki/(streams)) and Forte (https://codeberg.org/fortified/forte), both descendants of Hubzilla, created and still maintained by Hubzilla's original creator.

These two use keyboard double quotes as alt-text delimiters internally. So when they encounter the first keyboard double quote in an alt-text, they will assume that this is where the alt-text ends. They will not render the parts of the alt-text starting with that first keyboard double quote. Instead, they will silently discard them.

Quotation marks are unnecessary in alt-text anyway. In stark contrast to what everyone on Mastodon believes, alt-text is mostly for screen reader applications. But if you absolutely need quotation marks in alt-text, either use single quotes or typographically correct quotes (“” or »« or «»).

One more thing: You've mentioned "supplemental info". I sincerely hope that you aren't talking about explanations for the image itself.

Explanations, credits, license information and any other information that is neither present in the message text nor visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into alt-text.

Explanations and other extra information must always go into the message text where everyone can access it who can access the message!

Why? Because there are people who cannot access alt-texts. I'm still not joking.

I've explained this in my WIP wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

Reference: kwbell.eu (@KB), 'Alt' text for Mastodon images, April 9th, 2023, last edited June 1st, 2023

Another reference: these actual Mastodon posts which are comments on one of my posts from a few years ago, posted by a user whose hands don't work sufficiently enough to have the physical ability to open an alt-text.

RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110685869957855464
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690586917684870
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690592405651398
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690603250669254
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110691919197248049

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@calends :trantifa: 🏴️ Line breaks and the quotation marks from your keyboard are both terrible ideas in alt-text. Both are not officially count as elements supported in alt-text, and especially line breaks in alt-text are an invention by complete laypeople on Mastodon.



Line breaks are a bad idea because screen readers will consider each paragraph in your alt-text an individual alt-text for an individual image. And screen readers tend to start reading out alt-texts for images with something like, "Graphic."

So if your alt-text has three paragraphs, a screen reader will start reading out each one with, "Graphic."

Reference #1: Steve Faulkner (@Steve Faulkner), Short note on coding alt-text, TPGI, September 15th, 2015; https://www.tpgi.com/short-note-on-coding-alt-text/.

Reference #2: Adrian Roselli, Long alt, adrianroselli.com, April 20th, 2024, last update November 8th, 2024; https://adrianroselli.com/2024/04/long-alt.html



Double quotes from your keyboard are an even worse idea. That's because they can make certain Fediverse server applications malfunction. I'm not even joking here.

First of all, there's Hubzilla, the most feature-rich Fediverse server software of all and one of the most technologically advanced (https://hubzilla.org; https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla). I'm commenting from Hubzilla right now.

When there are keyboard double quotes in an alt-text, Hubzilla renders them as their corresponding HTML entities: ". A screen reader will read them out as something like, "And quot," and raise its voice afterwards unless a full stop follows.

And then there are (streams) (https://codeberg.org/streams/streams; https://joinfediverse.wiki/(streams)) and Forte (https://codeberg.org/fortified/forte), both descendants of Hubzilla, created and still maintained by Hubzilla's original creator.

These two use keyboard double quotes as alt-text delimiters internally. So when they encounter the first keyboard double quote in an alt-text, they will assume that this is where the alt-text ends. They will not render the parts of the alt-text starting with that first keyboard double quote. Instead, they will silently discard them.

Quotation marks are unnecessary in alt-text anyway. In stark contrast to what everyone on Mastodon believes, alt-text is mostly for screen reader applications. But if you absolutely need quotation marks in alt-text, either use single quotes or typographically correct quotes (“” or »« or «»).

One more thing: You've mentioned "supplemental info". I sincerely hope that you aren't talking about explanations for the image itself.

Explanations, credits, license information and any other information that is neither present in the message text nor visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into alt-text.

Explanations and other extra information must always go into the message text where everyone can access it who can access the message!

Why? Because there are people who cannot access alt-texts. I'm still not joking.

I've explained this in my WIP wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

Reference: kwbell.eu (@KB), 'Alt' text for Mastodon images, April 9th, 2023, last edited June 1st, 2023

Another reference: these actual Mastodon posts which are comments on one of my posts from a few years ago, posted by a user whose hands don't work sufficiently enough to have the physical ability to open an alt-text.

RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110685869957855464
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690586917684870
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690592405651398
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690603250669254
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110691919197248049

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Irina I'm pretty certain that there's some Mastodon phone app out there that does this fully automatically, and the users don't know about it.

The best would be to first ask them what app they use and then to ask the app developer(s) to stop this.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #MastodonApp #MastodonApps

@Roknrol Here are a few older alt-texts that I've written for original images of my own.

Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery. A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Good? Too long? Still not sufficiently detailed? If the latter, then rest assured: When the alt-text announces an additional, much longer image description in the message text, then there actually is one.

That is, nowadays, my goal is to limit my alt-texts to a maximum of 512 characters. That's because if a post with a longer alt-text arrives on Misskey or Iceshrimp-JS or Sharkey or another Misskey fork, then the alt-text is deleted without any trace. It will look like there has never been any alt-text to begin with.

When I post memes, it's usually easier to keep alt-texts shorter. The tricky part is to still have all the text transcripts in the alt-text because I only write one visual description for each of my meme images unless it's based on a virtual world rendering. I do give some explanations in my meme posts, though.

These two are very recent:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “Fediverse admin: announces the end of their instance and asks their users to migrate to other instances,” and “Admins of other instances:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Roknrol Here are a few older alt-texts that I've written for original images of my own.

Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery. A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Good? Too long? Still not sufficiently detailed? If the latter, then rest assured: When the alt-text announces an additional, much longer image description in the message text, then there actually is one.

That is, nowadays, my goal is to limit my alt-texts to a maximum of 512 characters. That's because if a post with a longer alt-text arrives on Misskey or Iceshrimp-JS or Sharkey or another Misskey fork, then the alt-text is deleted without any trace. It will look like there has never been any alt-text to begin with.

When I post memes, it's usually easier to keep alt-texts shorter. The tricky part is to still have all the text transcripts in the alt-text because I only write one visual description for each of my meme images unless it's based on a virtual world rendering. I do give some explanations in my meme posts, though.

These two are very recent:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “Fediverse admin: announces the end of their instance and asks their users to migrate to other instances,” and “Admins of other instances:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Roknrol Here are a few older alt-texts that I've written for original images of my own.

Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery. A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Good? Too long? Still not sufficiently detailed? If the latter, then rest assured: When the alt-text announces an additional, much longer image description in the message text, then there actually is one.

That is, nowadays, my goal is to limit my alt-texts to a maximum of 512 characters. That's because if a post with a longer alt-text arrives on Misskey or Iceshrimp-JS or Sharkey or another Misskey fork, then the alt-text is deleted without any trace. It will look like there has never been any alt-text to begin with.

When I post memes, it's usually easier to keep alt-texts shorter. The tricky part is to still have all the text transcripts in the alt-text because I only write one visual description for each of my meme images unless it's based on a virtual world rendering. I do give some explanations in my meme posts, though.

These two are very recent:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “Fediverse admin: announces the end of their instance and asks their users to migrate to other instances,” and “Admins of other instances:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Roknrol Here are a few older alt-texts that I've written for original images of my own.

Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery. A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Good? Too long? Still not sufficiently detailed? If the latter, then rest assured: When the alt-text announces an additional, much longer image description in the message text, then there actually is one.

That is, nowadays, my goal is to limit my alt-texts to a maximum of 512 characters. That's because if a post with a longer alt-text arrives on Misskey or Iceshrimp-JS or Sharkey or another Misskey fork, then the alt-text is deleted without any trace. It will look like there has never been any alt-text to begin with.

When I post memes, it's usually easier to keep alt-texts shorter. The tricky part is to still have all the text transcripts in the alt-text because I only write one visual description for each of my meme images unless it's based on a virtual world rendering. I do give some explanations in my meme posts, though.

These two are very recent:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “Fediverse admin: announces the end of their instance and asks their users to migrate to other instances,” and “Admins of other instances:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Roknrol Here are a few older alt-texts that I've written for original images of my own.

Digital shaded rendering of the main building of the Universal Campus, a downloadable island location for 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. The camera position is about three metres or ten feet above the ground. The camera is tilted slightly upward and rotated slightly to the left from the building's longitudinal axis. The futuristic building is over 200 metres long, stretching far into the distance, and its front is about 50 metres wide. Its structure is mostly textured to resemble brushed stainless steel, and almost everything in-between is grey tinted glass. The main entrance of the building in the middle of the front has two pairs of glass doors. They are surrounded by a massive complex geometrical structure, very roughly reminiscent of a vintage video game spacecraft with the front facing upward. Four huge cylindrical pillars carry the roof end, the outer two of which extend beyond it. All are tilted away from the landing area in front of the building and at the same time outward to the sides. The sides of the building are slightly tilted themselves. In the distance, a large geodesic dome rises from the building. There is a large circular area in front of the main entrance as well as several wide paths. They have light concrete textures, and they are lined with low walls with almost white concrete textures. Furthermore, various shrubs and trees decorate the scenery. A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin, brown eyes and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top with the logo of the 17th birthday of OSgrid on it, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace with the OSgrid logo. The OSgrid logo is made up from five identical parallelograms arranged in a circular, star-like pattern. It is also part of the birthday logo which is mostly two tones of yellowish orange. The writing on the birthday logo reads, from top to bottom, “OSgrid”, “The Open Source Metaverse” and “17th Birthday”. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Digital rendering from OSgrid, one of the biggest out of thousands of 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator. It shows Juno Rowland, a female avatar, standing at the end of a wooden pier with the ocean in the background. The avatar is designed to resemble a woman who is no older than in her 30s. She is slim underneath loose-fitting clothes. She has light to medium-light skin and black hair which is styled as a neck-long bob. She is wearing a black tank top, a straight, lower-thigh-length, light-to-medium-light-brown denim miniskirt, a pair of black flat ballet shoes and a golden necklace. She is looking at the cover of the Leonard Cohen album Recent Songs on a white easel. The cover is a painting of the musician's face. He is shown to be a middle-aged man with light skin, green eyes and black hair in a black shirt. A hummingbird is drawn hovering above his shoulder to the left. The background is medium blue. Cohen's name and the album title are written in the top corners. A more detailed description of the image, including explanations, can be found in the post itself. If you are on Mastodon, Misskey or one of their forks, you can find it by opening the summary and content warning which includes, “CW: long (22,270 characters, including 20,377 characters of image descriptions), eye contact”, and then following the actual post text. If you are on Pleroma, Akkoma, another Pleroma fork, Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams), the full description will follow right after the images.

Good? Too long? Still not sufficiently detailed? If the latter, then rest assured: When the alt-text announces an additional, much longer image description in the message text, then there actually is one.

That is, nowadays, my goal is to limit my alt-texts to a maximum of 512 characters. That's because if a post with a longer alt-text arrives on Misskey or Iceshrimp-JS or Sharkey or another Misskey fork, then the alt-text is deleted without any trace. It will look like there has never been any alt-text to begin with.

When I post memes, it's usually easier to keep alt-texts shorter. The tricky part is to still have all the text transcripts in the alt-text because I only write one visual description for each of my meme images unless it's based on a virtual world rendering. I do give some explanations in my meme posts, though.

These two are very recent:

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the Disney and Pixar animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “OSgrid: offline for weeks to come,” and “Owners of other grids, looking at OSgrid residents:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines in the background. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

Image macro, based on a screen capture from the animated film Finding Nemo. At the top, there is a white space with a two-line caption: “Fediverse admin: announces the end of their instance and asks their users to migrate to other instances,” and “Admins of other instances:”. In the screen capture below, ten seagulls are perched on two mooring lines. An eleventh seagull pokes its head into the image from the bottom right. They all look at the camera. Each one is labelled with the question, “Mine?”

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@EndlessMason Well, if your only personal digital end-user device is a phone, and your only input device for it is the screen, and you haven't got a text editor installed, and you wouldn't even know what plain-text editors exist for your phone OS, then probably not.

If you've never had a real computer, only phones, and you don't even know that text editors and the concept of copy-paste exist, then even less.

For me, it's both easier and safer to do this; safer in the sense of "I don't have to re-write everything from scratch if something goes wrong".

But I'm not on a phone. Not everyone everywhere in the Fediverse is always only ever on a phone. Some 90% of all Mastodon users may constantly be on phones with dedicated Mastodon apps. But I'm on a Debian GNU/Linux PC. I'm not using an app either (unless you count LibreWolf as an app). In fact, I'm not even on Mastodon. Here on Hubzilla, people are mostly on PCs, and there are no dedicated apps, neither for the desktop nor for phones.

I write all my image descriptions with Mousepad, also so that I don't have to rewrite them in case something goes wrong when I want to send my post. I can even (and often actually do) save WIP image descriptions. It helps that my screen has about 15 times the area of a typical phone screen, and I don't have to type on it.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@EndlessMason Tip:

• Open the image in an image viewer.
• Write the image description in a plain-text editor.
• Then upload the image.
• Lastly, copy-paste the image description from the text editor into the alt-text field.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@EndlessMason Tip:

• Open the image in an image viewer.
• Write the image description in a plain-text editor.
• Then upload the image.
• Lastly, copy-paste the image description from the text editor into the alt-text field.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@EndlessMason Tip:

• Open the image in an image viewer.
• Write the image description in a plain-text editor.
• Then upload the image.
• Lastly, copy-paste the image description from the text editor into the alt-text field.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@EndlessMason Tip:

• Open the image in an image viewer.
• Write the image description in a plain-text editor.
• Then upload the image.
• Lastly, copy-paste the image description from the text editor into the alt-text field.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@EndlessMason Tip:

• Open the image in an image viewer.
• Write the image description in a plain-text editor.
• Then upload the image.
• Lastly, copy-paste the image description from the text editor into the alt-text field.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Justin Derrick @Jay Kuo I'll use this as a justification for going on transcribing text at any levels of unreadability in my images, all the way to text that's so tiny that it isn't even visible at the given image resolution.

I won't do it in the alt-text, though. I'll continue doing it in the additional long image description in the message text.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts

@jevvv🇳🇿 @Strypey The downside would be that the image would always have the same alt-text. This is bad.

Alt-text should always adapt to the context and the audience. Depending on the context, different things in the image could be important. A personal blog or a static website requires different image descriptions than posting on social media, and commercial silos have culturally different requirements for acceptable image descriptions than the Fediverse with an audience mostly on Mastodon.

Blogs and static websites have limited audiences, namely those who actively seek them out. If you blog about a super-obscure topic, you can be certain that everyone who reads your blog is familiar with that topic. If you post the self-same images on social media, people receive them who don't know diddly-squat about the topic, so different descriptions are necessary.

If you write a 150-character alt-text, you conform with Web standards when you use it on your website, but Mastodon users may scold you for describing your image too little when you use it in the Fediverse.

If you write a Mastodon-compatible alt-text with 1,000 characters, Mastodon users may celebrate it and mention it to the @Alt Text Hall of Fame, but Web accessibility experts will scold you for your alt-text being too long if you dare to use it for an image on a static website (also, Misskey/Sharkey/Iceshrimp-JS users may scold you for allegedly not writing any alt-text at all because Misskey and all Forkeys delete alt-texts with over 512 characters due to a bug).

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@jevvv🇳🇿 @Strypey The downside would be that the image would always have the same alt-text. This is bad.

Alt-text should always adapt to the context and the audience. Depending on the context, different things in the image could be important. A personal blog or a static website requires different image descriptions than posting on social media, and commercial silos have culturally different requirements for acceptable image descriptions than the Fediverse with an audience mostly on Mastodon.

Blogs and static websites have limited audiences, namely those who actively seek them out. If you blog about a super-obscure topic, you can be certain that everyone who reads your blog is familiar with that topic. If you post the self-same images on social media, people receive them who don't know diddly-squat about the topic, so different descriptions are necessary.

If you write a 150-character alt-text, you conform with Web standards when you use it on your website, but Mastodon users may scold you for describing your image too little when you use it in the Fediverse.

If you write a Mastodon-compatible alt-text with 1,000 characters, Mastodon users may celebrate it and mention it to the @Alt Text Hall of Fame, but Web accessibility experts will scold you for your alt-text being too long if you dare to use it for an image on a static website (also, Misskey/Sharkey/Iceshrimp-JS users may scold you for allegedly not writing any alt-text at all because Misskey and all Forkeys delete alt-texts with over 512 characters due to a bug).

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Darth Hideout 🏳️‍🌈 In the absence of an "alt" button, have you tried the old-school way that still works everywhere outside of Mastodon, namely hovering your mouse cursor over the image?

Besides, the vast majority of Fediverse actors simply don't have alt-texts under their profile images. And many of them probably never will. So there might simply not be any alt-text in the first place.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@HeliosPi

Agreed. I'm also complaining that it takes a lot more time for me to post media with alt-text, proportionally, and doing so doesn't increase attention to that post.

@Aaron Caskey-Demaret

I agree. Alt text may be an amazing multiplier, but zero times anything is still zero 🙂

Sounds like me. My image posts have next to no audience.

Basically, I've got three kinds of image posts.

One, memes about the Fediverse. And I don't mean memes that treat the Fediverse as only Mastodon, or that make the Fediverse being Mastodon with a few things attached as add-ons being the unquestioned standard. I post them on @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams).

Two, memes about 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet.

Both of them are tricky in various ways. They only get one visual description each, and it goes into the alt-text. The tricky part here is that I no longer let my alt-texts grow longer than 512 characters. That's due to a bug on Misskey and its various forks and forks of forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS etc.): They only support alt-texts with up to 512 characters. They're supposed to truncate longer alt-texts, but instead, they delete longer alt-texts with no trace. So if you write an alt-text that's longer than 512 characters, someone on Misskey or Sharkey or so will think that you haven't written any alt-text at all.

In addition, I have to explain them which I do in the message text and not in the alt-text. My impression of especially Mastodon is that people love receiving explanations along with images that they don't understand right off the bat. I believe it has gotten to the point that these explanations are becoming or have since become almost as mandatory as visual descriptions. And both the Fediverse beyond Mastodon and 3-D virtual worlds are super-obscure topics that require explanations, not to mention that not everyone knows and understands all meme templates. So I have to explain my own image macros plus the topic they're about plus the meme templates I've used.

This is what really requires time and effort. That is, for the meme templates, I resort to links to KnowYourMeme. Some people on Mastodon are staunchly against links to explanations and demand that one explain everything right in the post. I've done that once. The result was six explanations with over 12,000 characters for one single meme template ("One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor"), and I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings and its characters. I don't really think these people prefer 12,000 characters in one post to one link to KnowYourMeme, even if the two explanations for the topic took up another 12,000+ characters.

Well, and lastly, I sometimes post renderings from 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet, too. If I post them at all, for I haven't posted any in over two years.

That's because the effort is even bigger. Not only do I have to explain them, but I have to describe them twice. The image description in the alt-text is the short one. Again, no explanations, and this time, usually no text transcripts either. And then there's the long, fully detailed image description in the message text. It contains all explanations necessary, and it contains transcripts of any and all bits of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable or not.

If I'm lucky, I don't have to write much more than 20,000 characters of descriptions, explanations and transcripts for one post. If I'm not so lucky, this block will exceed 60,000 characters and take two full days to research for and write for only one image.

I treat it like muscle, gotta keep my alt-text skills sharp cos one day someone might actually want to read my shitposts.

I actually try to optimise and improve my image descriptions further and further whenever I learn something new, e.g. new image-describing rules or guidelines. And I've learned enough about describing images and writing alt-texts specifically for the Fediverse that I've started putting together a wiki about that special topic.

Maybe I'll start following the advice from Veronica with Four Eyes and give two visual descriptions for each of my image, one in the alt-text, one in the message text for those who are visually impaired enough to not see my images clearly, but not so visually impaired that they require a screen reader to read the text on the screen.

Maybe I might go as far as describing my virtual world renderings three times so that there's an additional shorter description in the message text.

I mean, as you can probably tell from this comment, I don't have to worry about local character limits.

CC: @Em :official_verified:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@HeliosPi

Agreed. I'm also complaining that it takes a lot more time for me to post media with alt-text, proportionally, and doing so doesn't increase attention to that post.

@Aaron Caskey-Demaret

I agree. Alt text may be an amazing multiplier, but zero times anything is still zero 🙂

Sounds like me. My image posts have next to no audience.

Basically, I've got three kinds of image posts.

One, memes about the Fediverse. And I don't mean memes that treat the Fediverse as only Mastodon, or that make the Fediverse being Mastodon with a few things attached as add-ons being the unquestioned standard. I post them on @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams).

Two, memes about 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet.

Both of them are tricky in various ways. They only get one visual description each, and it goes into the alt-text. The tricky part here is that I no longer let my alt-texts grow longer than 512 characters. That's due to a bug on Misskey and its various forks and forks of forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS etc.): They only support alt-texts with up to 512 characters. They're supposed to truncate longer alt-texts, but instead, they delete longer alt-texts with no trace. So if you write an alt-text that's longer than 512 characters, someone on Misskey or Sharkey or so will think that you haven't written any alt-text at all.

In addition, I have to explain them which I do in the message text and not in the alt-text. My impression of especially Mastodon is that people love receiving explanations along with images that they don't understand right off the bat. I believe it has gotten to the point that these explanations are becoming or have since become almost as mandatory as visual descriptions. And both the Fediverse beyond Mastodon and 3-D virtual worlds are super-obscure topics that require explanations, not to mention that not everyone knows and understands all meme templates. So I have to explain my own image macros plus the topic they're about plus the meme templates I've used.

This is what really requires time and effort. That is, for the meme templates, I resort to links to KnowYourMeme. Some people on Mastodon are staunchly against links to explanations and demand that one explain everything right in the post. I've done that once. The result was six explanations with over 12,000 characters for one single meme template ("One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor"), and I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings and its characters. I don't really think these people prefer 12,000 characters in one post to one link to KnowYourMeme, even if the two explanations for the topic took up another 12,000+ characters.

Well, and lastly, I sometimes post renderings from 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet, too. If I post them at all, for I haven't posted any in over two years.

That's because the effort is even bigger. Not only do I have to explain them, but I have to describe them twice. The image description in the alt-text is the short one. Again, no explanations, and this time, usually no text transcripts either. And then there's the long, fully detailed image description in the message text. It contains all explanations necessary, and it contains transcripts of any and all bits of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable or not.

If I'm lucky, I don't have to write much more than 20,000 characters of descriptions, explanations and transcripts for one post. If I'm not so lucky, this block will exceed 60,000 characters and take two full days to research for and write for only one image.

I treat it like muscle, gotta keep my alt-text skills sharp cos one day someone might actually want to read my shitposts.

I actually try to optimise and improve my image descriptions further and further whenever I learn something new, e.g. new image-describing rules or guidelines. And I've learned enough about describing images and writing alt-texts specifically for the Fediverse that I've started putting together a wiki about that special topic.

Maybe I'll start following the advice from Veronica with Four Eyes and give two visual descriptions for each of my image, one in the alt-text, one in the message text for those who are visually impaired enough to not see my images clearly, but not so visually impaired that they require a screen reader to read the text on the screen.

Maybe I might go as far as describing my virtual world renderings three times so that there's an additional shorter description in the message text.

I mean, as you can probably tell from this comment, I don't have to worry about local character limits.

CC: @Em :official_verified:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@HeliosPi

Agreed. I'm also complaining that it takes a lot more time for me to post media with alt-text, proportionally, and doing so doesn't increase attention to that post.

@Aaron Caskey-Demaret

I agree. Alt text may be an amazing multiplier, but zero times anything is still zero 🙂

Sounds like me. My image posts have next to no audience.

Basically, I've got three kinds of image posts.

One, memes about the Fediverse. And I don't mean memes that treat the Fediverse as only Mastodon, or that make the Fediverse being Mastodon with a few things attached as add-ons being the unquestioned standard. I post them on @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams).

Two, memes about 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet.

Both of them are tricky in various ways. They only get one visual description each, and it goes into the alt-text. The tricky part here is that I no longer let my alt-texts grow longer than 512 characters. That's due to a bug on Misskey and its various forks and forks of forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS etc.): They only support alt-texts with up to 512 characters. They're supposed to truncate longer alt-texts, but instead, they delete longer alt-texts with no trace. So if you write an alt-text that's longer than 512 characters, someone on Misskey or Sharkey or so will think that you haven't written any alt-text at all.

In addition, I have to explain them which I do in the message text and not in the alt-text. My impression of especially Mastodon is that people love receiving explanations along with images that they don't understand right off the bat. I believe it has gotten to the point that these explanations are becoming or have since become almost as mandatory as visual descriptions. And both the Fediverse beyond Mastodon and 3-D virtual worlds are super-obscure topics that require explanations, not to mention that not everyone knows and understands all meme templates. So I have to explain my own image macros plus the topic they're about plus the meme templates I've used.

This is what really requires time and effort. That is, for the meme templates, I resort to links to KnowYourMeme. Some people on Mastodon are staunchly against links to explanations and demand that one explain everything right in the post. I've done that once. The result was six explanations with over 12,000 characters for one single meme template ("One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor"), and I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings and its characters. I don't really think these people prefer 12,000 characters in one post to one link to KnowYourMeme, even if the two explanations for the topic took up another 12,000+ characters.

Well, and lastly, I sometimes post renderings from 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet, too. If I post them at all, for I haven't posted any in over two years.

That's because the effort is even bigger. Not only do I have to explain them, but I have to describe them twice. The image description in the alt-text is the short one. Again, no explanations, and this time, usually no text transcripts either. And then there's the long, fully detailed image description in the message text. It contains all explanations necessary, and it contains transcripts of any and all bits of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable or not.

If I'm lucky, I don't have to write much more than 20,000 characters of descriptions, explanations and transcripts for one post. If I'm not so lucky, this block will exceed 60,000 characters and take two full days to research for and write for only one image.

I treat it like muscle, gotta keep my alt-text skills sharp cos one day someone might actually want to read my shitposts.

I actually try to optimise and improve my image descriptions further and further whenever I learn something new, e.g. new image-describing rules or guidelines. And I've learned enough about describing images and writing alt-texts specifically for the Fediverse that I've started putting together a wiki about that special topic.

Maybe I'll start following the advice from Veronica with Four Eyes and give two visual descriptions for each of my image, one in the alt-text, one in the message text for those who are visually impaired enough to not see my images clearly, but not so visually impaired that they require a screen reader to read the text on the screen.

Maybe I might go as far as describing my virtual world renderings three times so that there's an additional shorter description in the message text.

I mean, as you can probably tell from this comment, I don't have to worry about local character limits.

CC: @Em :official_verified:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@HeliosPi

Agreed. I'm also complaining that it takes a lot more time for me to post media with alt-text, proportionally, and doing so doesn't increase attention to that post.

@Aaron Caskey-Demaret

I agree. Alt text may be an amazing multiplier, but zero times anything is still zero 🙂

Sounds like me. My image posts have next to no audience.

Basically, I've got three kinds of image posts.

One, memes about the Fediverse. And I don't mean memes that treat the Fediverse as only Mastodon, or that make the Fediverse being Mastodon with a few things attached as add-ons being the unquestioned standard. I post them on @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams).

Two, memes about 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet.

Both of them are tricky in various ways. They only get one visual description each, and it goes into the alt-text. The tricky part here is that I no longer let my alt-texts grow longer than 512 characters. That's due to a bug on Misskey and its various forks and forks of forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS etc.): They only support alt-texts with up to 512 characters. They're supposed to truncate longer alt-texts, but instead, they delete longer alt-texts with no trace. So if you write an alt-text that's longer than 512 characters, someone on Misskey or Sharkey or so will think that you haven't written any alt-text at all.

In addition, I have to explain them which I do in the message text and not in the alt-text. My impression of especially Mastodon is that people love receiving explanations along with images that they don't understand right off the bat. I believe it has gotten to the point that these explanations are becoming or have since become almost as mandatory as visual descriptions. And both the Fediverse beyond Mastodon and 3-D virtual worlds are super-obscure topics that require explanations, not to mention that not everyone knows and understands all meme templates. So I have to explain my own image macros plus the topic they're about plus the meme templates I've used.

This is what really requires time and effort. That is, for the meme templates, I resort to links to KnowYourMeme. Some people on Mastodon are staunchly against links to explanations and demand that one explain everything right in the post. I've done that once. The result was six explanations with over 12,000 characters for one single meme template ("One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor"), and I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings and its characters. I don't really think these people prefer 12,000 characters in one post to one link to KnowYourMeme, even if the two explanations for the topic took up another 12,000+ characters.

Well, and lastly, I sometimes post renderings from 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet, too. If I post them at all, for I haven't posted any in over two years.

That's because the effort is even bigger. Not only do I have to explain them, but I have to describe them twice. The image description in the alt-text is the short one. Again, no explanations, and this time, usually no text transcripts either. And then there's the long, fully detailed image description in the message text. It contains all explanations necessary, and it contains transcripts of any and all bits of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable or not.

If I'm lucky, I don't have to write much more than 20,000 characters of descriptions, explanations and transcripts for one post. If I'm not so lucky, this block will exceed 60,000 characters and take two full days to research for and write for only one image.

I treat it like muscle, gotta keep my alt-text skills sharp cos one day someone might actually want to read my shitposts.

I actually try to optimise and improve my image descriptions further and further whenever I learn something new, e.g. new image-describing rules or guidelines. And I've learned enough about describing images and writing alt-texts specifically for the Fediverse that I've started putting together a wiki about that special topic.

Maybe I'll start following the advice from Veronica with Four Eyes and give two visual descriptions for each of my image, one in the alt-text, one in the message text for those who are visually impaired enough to not see my images clearly, but not so visually impaired that they require a screen reader to read the text on the screen.

Maybe I might go as far as describing my virtual world renderings three times so that there's an additional shorter description in the message text.

I mean, as you can probably tell from this comment, I don't have to worry about local character limits.

CC: @Em :official_verified:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@HeliosPi

Agreed. I'm also complaining that it takes a lot more time for me to post media with alt-text, proportionally, and doing so doesn't increase attention to that post.

@Aaron Caskey-Demaret

I agree. Alt text may be an amazing multiplier, but zero times anything is still zero 🙂

Sounds like me. My image posts have next to no audience.

Basically, I've got three kinds of image posts.

One, memes about the Fediverse. And I don't mean memes that treat the Fediverse as only Mastodon, or that make the Fediverse being Mastodon with a few things attached as add-ons being the unquestioned standard. I post them on @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams).

Two, memes about 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet.

Both of them are tricky in various ways. They only get one visual description each, and it goes into the alt-text. The tricky part here is that I no longer let my alt-texts grow longer than 512 characters. That's due to a bug on Misskey and its various forks and forks of forks (Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS etc.): They only support alt-texts with up to 512 characters. They're supposed to truncate longer alt-texts, but instead, they delete longer alt-texts with no trace. So if you write an alt-text that's longer than 512 characters, someone on Misskey or Sharkey or so will think that you haven't written any alt-text at all.

In addition, I have to explain them which I do in the message text and not in the alt-text. My impression of especially Mastodon is that people love receiving explanations along with images that they don't understand right off the bat. I believe it has gotten to the point that these explanations are becoming or have since become almost as mandatory as visual descriptions. And both the Fediverse beyond Mastodon and 3-D virtual worlds are super-obscure topics that require explanations, not to mention that not everyone knows and understands all meme templates. So I have to explain my own image macros plus the topic they're about plus the meme templates I've used.

This is what really requires time and effort. That is, for the meme templates, I resort to links to KnowYourMeme. Some people on Mastodon are staunchly against links to explanations and demand that one explain everything right in the post. I've done that once. The result was six explanations with over 12,000 characters for one single meme template ("One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor"), and I haven't even explained The Lord of the Rings and its characters. I don't really think these people prefer 12,000 characters in one post to one link to KnowYourMeme, even if the two explanations for the topic took up another 12,000+ characters.

Well, and lastly, I sometimes post renderings from 3-D virtual worlds. I post these on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet, too. If I post them at all, for I haven't posted any in over two years.

That's because the effort is even bigger. Not only do I have to explain them, but I have to describe them twice. The image description in the alt-text is the short one. Again, no explanations, and this time, usually no text transcripts either. And then there's the long, fully detailed image description in the message text. It contains all explanations necessary, and it contains transcripts of any and all bits of text anywhere within the borders of the image, readable or not.

If I'm lucky, I don't have to write much more than 20,000 characters of descriptions, explanations and transcripts for one post. If I'm not so lucky, this block will exceed 60,000 characters and take two full days to research for and write for only one image.

I treat it like muscle, gotta keep my alt-text skills sharp cos one day someone might actually want to read my shitposts.

I actually try to optimise and improve my image descriptions further and further whenever I learn something new, e.g. new image-describing rules or guidelines. And I've learned enough about describing images and writing alt-texts specifically for the Fediverse that I've started putting together a wiki about that special topic.

Maybe I'll start following the advice from Veronica with Four Eyes and give two visual descriptions for each of my image, one in the alt-text, one in the message text for those who are visually impaired enough to not see my images clearly, but not so visually impaired that they require a screen reader to read the text on the screen.

Maybe I might go as far as describing my virtual world renderings three times so that there's an additional shorter description in the message text.

I mean, as you can probably tell from this comment, I don't have to worry about local character limits.

CC: @Em :official_verified:

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Rachel Rawlings When I post a meme (not here if you're curious, but on @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet and @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams)), I always give both a purely visual description in the alt-text and an explanation of the image macro itself, the meme template and the topic in the message text. I have to explain the topic because it's always rather obscure. And I've got a high enough character limit to give very detailed explanations.

What would you say is the best way to give an explanation for the meme template?

• A link to KnowYourMeme?
  (Downside: Links are inconvenient, they open your browser when you're using a phone app, and the linked website doesn't necessarily have to be sufficiently accessible)
• A full set of explanations in the message text itself?
  (Downside: Inflates the post by another 10,000+ characters because the explanation of the meme template needs extra explanations itself, and these extra explanations need more explanations again)
• Not at all; it is not ableist to expect people to ask if they don't understand something instead of giving tens of thousands of characters of explanation right away

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@Early Twix Ich weiß ja auch nicht, ob meine Bildbeschreibungen etwas taugen, vor allem gemäß der Mastodon-Kultur. Ich bin selbst nicht auf Mastodon, aber wenn die eigenen Beiträge auf Mastodon landen, hält man sich entweder an Mastodons Kultur und Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln, oder man wird massenhaft angegriffen und/oder blockiert.

(Es bringt übrigens nichts, auf dem Kanal, von dem aus ich jetzt gerade kommentierte, nach aktuellen Bildern zu suchen. Alle Bilder hier sind alt. Hier poste ich keine Bilder mehr. Meine wenigen neueren Bilder finden sich auf @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet und @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams), und die meisten davon sind Memes.)

Andererseits: Wenn ich anderen Leuten Rückmeldungen für ihre Alt-Texte geben würde, würden sehr viel mehr davon mich blockieren und evtl. vorher angreifen als meine Rückmeldung akzeptieren. Ich würde die Alt-Texte nämlich abklopfen nach a) Wahrheitsgehalt, b) Details, c) Einhaltung sehr vieler Regeln und Richtlinien für Bildbeschreibungen und d) Kompatibilität mit einigen Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Serveranwendungen. Die letzteren beiden Punkte sind im Fediverse derart unbekannt, daß Feedback meinerseits fast zwingend zum Verriß werden würde. Deswegen lasse ich es lieber.

CC: @Erdstern @Schauinsland @Ulrike E.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #MastodonKultur

@Early Twix Ich weiß ja auch nicht, ob meine Bildbeschreibungen etwas taugen, vor allem gemäß der Mastodon-Kultur. Ich bin selbst nicht auf Mastodon, aber wenn die eigenen Beiträge auf Mastodon landen, hält man sich entweder an Mastodons Kultur und Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln, oder man wird massenhaft angegriffen und/oder blockiert.

(Es bringt übrigens nichts, auf dem Kanal, von dem aus ich jetzt gerade kommentierte, nach aktuellen Bildern zu suchen. Alle Bilder hier sind alt. Hier poste ich keine Bilder mehr. Meine wenigen neueren Bilder finden sich auf @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet und @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams), und die meisten davon sind Memes.)

Andererseits: Wenn ich anderen Leuten Rückmeldungen für ihre Alt-Texte geben würde, würden sehr viel mehr davon mich blockieren und evtl. vorher angreifen als meine Rückmeldung akzeptieren. Ich würde die Alt-Texte nämlich abklopfen nach a) Wahrheitsgehalt, b) Details, c) Einhaltung sehr vieler Regeln und Richtlinien für Bildbeschreibungen und d) Kompatibilität mit einigen Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Serveranwendungen. Die letzteren beiden Punkte sind im Fediverse derart unbekannt, daß Feedback meinerseits fast zwingend zum Verriß werden würde. Deswegen lasse ich es lieber.

CC: @Erdstern @Schauinsland @Ulrike E.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #MastodonKultur

@Early Twix Ich weiß ja auch nicht, ob meine Bildbeschreibungen etwas taugen, vor allem gemäß der Mastodon-Kultur. Ich bin selbst nicht auf Mastodon, aber wenn die eigenen Beiträge auf Mastodon landen, hält man sich entweder an Mastodons Kultur und Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln, oder man wird massenhaft angegriffen und/oder blockiert.

(Es bringt übrigens nichts, auf dem Kanal, von dem aus ich jetzt gerade kommentierte, nach aktuellen Bildern zu suchen. Alle Bilder hier sind alt. Hier poste ich keine Bilder mehr. Meine wenigen neueren Bilder finden sich auf @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet und @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams), und die meisten davon sind Memes.)

Andererseits: Wenn ich anderen Leuten Rückmeldungen für ihre Alt-Texte geben würde, würden sehr viel mehr davon mich blockieren und evtl. vorher angreifen als meine Rückmeldung akzeptieren. Ich würde die Alt-Texte nämlich abklopfen nach a) Wahrheitsgehalt, b) Details, c) Einhaltung sehr vieler Regeln und Richtlinien für Bildbeschreibungen und d) Kompatibilität mit einigen Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Serveranwendungen. Die letzteren beiden Punkte sind im Fediverse derart unbekannt, daß Feedback meinerseits fast zwingend zum Verriß werden würde. Deswegen lasse ich es lieber.

CC: @Erdstern @Schauinsland @Ulrike E.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #MastodonKultur

@Early Twix Ich weiß ja auch nicht, ob meine Bildbeschreibungen etwas taugen, vor allem gemäß der Mastodon-Kultur. Ich bin selbst nicht auf Mastodon, aber wenn die eigenen Beiträge auf Mastodon landen, hält man sich entweder an Mastodons Kultur und Mastodons ungeschriebene Regeln, oder man wird massenhaft angegriffen und/oder blockiert.

(Es bringt übrigens nichts, auf dem Kanal, von dem aus ich jetzt gerade kommentierte, nach aktuellen Bildern zu suchen. Alle Bilder hier sind alt. Hier poste ich keine Bilder mehr. Meine wenigen neueren Bilder finden sich auf @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet und @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams), und die meisten davon sind Memes.)

Andererseits: Wenn ich anderen Leuten Rückmeldungen für ihre Alt-Texte geben würde, würden sehr viel mehr davon mich blockieren und evtl. vorher angreifen als meine Rückmeldung akzeptieren. Ich würde die Alt-Texte nämlich abklopfen nach a) Wahrheitsgehalt, b) Details, c) Einhaltung sehr vieler Regeln und Richtlinien für Bildbeschreibungen und d) Kompatibilität mit einigen Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Serveranwendungen. Die letzteren beiden Punkte sind im Fediverse derart unbekannt, daß Feedback meinerseits fast zwingend zum Verriß werden würde. Deswegen lasse ich es lieber.

CC: @Erdstern @Schauinsland @Ulrike E.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #MastodonKultur

@Sepia Fan

"Ich habe keine Ahnung, ob meine Anhänge von sehbehinderten Menschen gerne verstanden würden."
Sehbehinderte Menschen haben grundsätzlich die selben Interessen, wie nicht sehbehinderte.

Genau das ist übrigens ein Hauptgrund, warum alle meine eigenen Bilder mit einer volldetaillierten Bildbeschreibung im Beitragstext kommen. Zusätzlich zur kürzeren Beschreibung im Alt-Text natürlich.

Meine eigenen Bilder sind allesamt Renderings aus sehr obskuren virtuellen 3-D-Welten. "Sehr obskur" im Sinne von "höchstens einer von 200.000 Nutzern im Fediverse hat überhaupt auch nur von der Technologie dahinter gehört".

Ich muß ständig damit rechnen, daß irgendjemand da draußen auf einen meiner Bildposts stößt und total aufgeregt auf der vorderen Stuhlkante sitzt, weil dieser Post etwas beweist, woran heutzutage niemand mehr zu glauben wagt: Virtuelle Welten, will sagen, "das Metaversum", sind nicht tot. Sie existieren. Und es gibt Bilder aus ihnen.

So ist dieser Jemand dann so aufgeregt, daß er total neugierig auf diese neuentdeckte Welt, dieses neuentdeckte Universum ist und sich alle großen und kleinen Details auf dem Bild ganz genau anguckt, egal, ob sie im Kontext jetzt eine Rolle spielen oder nicht.

Wenn dieser Jemand denn sehend ist. Aber wenn dieser Jemand sehbehindert oder blind sein sollte, kann er ja genauso aufgeregt und neugierig sein.

An dieser Stelle kommt das Stichwort "Inklusion" ins Spiel. Das bedeutet: Blinde oder sehbehinderte Personen müssen haargenau dieselben Chancen haben, haargenau dieselben Dinge zu tun wie sehende Personen.

Um jetzt aber meine Bilder mit all ihren großen und kleinen Details wahrnehmen zu können, brauchen Blinde bzw. Sehbehinderte aber eine Bildbeschreibung, die all diese großen und kleinen Details enthält.

Und dann sitze ich auch schon mal bei einem Bild wie diesem, https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/b1e7bf9c-07d8-45b6-90bb-f43e27199295, zwei volle Tage von morgens bis abends und schreibe eine Langbeschreibung von über 60.000 Zeichen, die wortwörtliche Transkripte von mehr als 20 Textschnipseln enthält, ebenso sämtliche Erklärungen, die nötig sind, um das Bild und die Beschreibung zu verstehen.

Nach meinem Verständnis von der Mastodon-Kultur bin ich dazu eigentlich verpflichtet. Auch wenn dieselbe Mastodon-Kultur ein Riesenproblem mit Posts hat, die länger als 500 Zeichen sind. Man kann leider nicht alles auf einmal haben.

CC: @Schauinsland @Ulrike E.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #MastodonKultur

@Ann Effes Mir geht's ganz ähnlich, nur wahrscheinlich noch viel extremer.

Erstens habe ich einige Dutzend Websites und Blogposts über Alt-Texte und Bildbeschreibungen gelesen und versuche, alle Regeln und Richtlinien anzuwenden, die im Fediverse anwendbar sind und nicht mit Mastodons Kultur kollidieren. Ich mache mir daher also jede Menge Gedanken zu dem Thema.

Zweitens sind meine eigenen Bilder (also die, die keine Memes auf Basis etablierter Vorlagen sind) allesamt Renderings aus extrem obskuren virtuellen Welten. Das heißt: Niemand weiß irgendetwas über diese Welten und diese Bilder. Und wer die Bilder nicht sehen kann, hat auch keine realistische Vorstellung davon, wie irgendetwas auf den Bildern aussieht. Das heißt wieder: viel erklären, viel beschreiben.

Drittens hat das den Vorteil, daß ich meine Bilder nicht beschreiben muß, indem ich mir die Bilder mit ihrer eingeschränkten Auflösung angucke. Statt dessen beschreibe ich sie, indem ich mir in-world das im Bild gezeigte Motiv direkt vor Ort angucke, und zwar mit annähernd unendlicher Auflösung. Ich kann extrem viele Details sehen, also kann ich sie auch beschreiben.

Viertens bin ich in der komfortablen Lage, nicht auf Mastodon zu sein, sondern auf Hubzilla. Das heißt: Im Beitragstext, wo die meisten Mastodon-Nutzer 500 Zeichen zur Verfügung haben, habe ich über 16,7 Millionen Zeichen. Ich habe also reichlich Platz für Erklärungen und hochdetaillierte Bildbeschreibungen im Beitragstext. Zusätzlich zum von der Mastodon-Polizei eingeforderten Alt-Text natürlich.

Ich kann also Bilder hochdetailliert beschreiben. Mein Eindruck von der Mastodon-Kultur ist auch, daß hochdetaillierte Bildbeschreibungen da sehr willkommen und bisweilen auch gefordert sind, nur daß sich auf Mastodon niemand vorstellen kann, daß es irgendwo im Fediverse möglich ist, mehr als 1500 Zeichen am Stück zu posten. Außerdem ist mein Eindruck von der Mastodon-Kultur, daß, wenn man ein Bild postet, das so ohne weiteres nicht leicht verständlich ist, man genügend Erklärungen mitliefern muß, damit jeder es versteht.

Folglich schreibe ich für alle meine Bilder zwei Beschreibungen. Die eine geht in den Beitragstext, sie ist volldetailliert und enthält sowohl alle zum Verständnis nötigen Erklärungen als auch Transkripte aller Textstücke innerhalb des Bildes, lesbar oder nicht. Die andere geht in den Alt-Text, ist sehr stark verkürzt, enthält keine Erklärungen und enthält keine Text-Transkripte (weil kein Platz).

Die Folge ist aber, daß ich immer wieder auf Motive stoße, die mit diesem hohen Selbstanspruch einfach nicht realistisch beschreibbar sind.

Vor gut zwei Jahren war ich auf der Suche nach einem interessanten Motiv. Ich stieß auf eine Art Hafenszene, norwegisch angehaucht, leider aber auch hochgradig detailliert und mit fotorealistischen Texturen überall. Ich habe mir das Motiv angesehen und entschieden: Das kann ich unmöglich beschreiben. Das wäre ein viel zu großer Aufwand.

Mein letztes Ausweichmotiv war das hier: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/b1e7bf9c-07d8-45b6-90bb-f43e27199295. Das ist schon 2011 gebaut worden. Das hielt ich für simpel genug. Eigentlich vermeide ich Gebäude auf Bildern, weil ich für die Beschreibungen erst haufenweise architektonische Fachbegriffe raussuchen und die dann auch noch alle in der langen Beschreibung erklären müßte. Dieses Gebäude ist aber so unrealistisch, daß ich mir das sparen konnte.

So begab ich mich eines Morgens an diesen Ort und fing an zu beschreiben. Am Abend desselben Tages legte ich eine Pause ein. Ich hatte den ganzen Tag mich umgesehen und gezoomt und recherchiert und geschrieben und war trotzdem noch nicht fertig. Fertig war ich am nächsten Abend und auch nur mit der Langbeschreibung, die über 60.000 Zeichen lang ist.

Ich habe alleine über 4.000 Zeichen am Anfang gebraucht, um zu erklären, wo das Bild entstanden ist. 40.000 Zeichen entfielen auf die Außen- und Innenbeschreibung des Gebäudes. Dazu zählen Transkripte von mehr als 20 einzelnen Textschnipseln, von denen die meisten so klein sind, daß sie auf dem Bild überhaupt nicht zu sehen sind.

Die Beschreibung ist zu finden in diesem Post: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/f8ac991d-b64b-4290-be69-28feb51ba2a7.

Seitdem habe ich nur ein einziges weiteres Mal eigene Bilder gepostet, und das ist auch schon zwei Jahre her: https://streams.elsmussols.net/item/b6ae326a-c207-46dd-836b-6bc2b6a3509c. In dem Fall habe ich selbst dafür gesorgt, daß die Bilder möglichst simpel sind, um nicht wieder zwei Tage mit Beschreiben zu verbringen. Trotzdem habe ich gut 20.000 Zeichen an Beschreibungen, Erklärungen und Transkripten für zwei Renderings, von denen eines allerdings ein Albumcover enthält. Auf die Beschreibung des Cover entfielen gut 1.300 Zeichen und vorher noch einmal gut 1.600 auf die Beschreibung der Staffelei.

Seit Ende 2024 arbeite ich gelegentlich an einer Reihe von Bildbeschreibungen für an sich einfache Avatarportraits mit neutralem weißem Hintergrund, um den Hintergrund nicht beschreiben zu müssen. Stand jetzt habe ich über 3.200 Zeichen an Erklärung, wo die Bilder entstanden sind (obwohl das an sich aus den Bildern gar nicht hervorgeht), über 10.000 Zeichen an Erklärungen, wie diese Avatare aufgebaut sind und funktionieren (ohne diese Erklärungen würde niemand die visuellen Beschreibungen verstehen), über 5.000 Zeichen an gemeinsamer visueller Beschreibung für alle Bilder eines Beitrags und noch einmal über 2.600 Zeichen an zusätzlicher Beschreibung für die drei Outfits auf dem ersten Bild.

Ich bin weit davon entfernt, fertig zu sein. Und ich weiß nicht, wie ich zu einem Bild mit drei Portraits zusätzlich einen Alt-Text mit maximal 1.500 Zeichen schreiben soll, geschweige denn einen mit maximal 512 Zeichen, damit Misskey, Sharkey, Iceshrimp-JS und die anderen Forkeys den Alt-Text nicht löschen. Schlimmer noch: Ich habe auch Bilder mit jeweils vier Portraits. Aber wenn der Alt-Text nicht hinreichend detailliert ist, riskiert man ja, aus Richtung Mastodon auf den Deckel zu kriegen, auch wenn im Beitragstext hochdetaillierte Bildbeschreibungen stehen.

CC: @Ulrike E. @Somlu

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Zeichenlimit #Zeichenlimits #ZeichenlimitMeta #CWZeichenlimitMeta #500Zeichen #MastodonKultur

@CF~Exile I'm on Hubzilla (https://hubzilla.org; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubzilla) which is very very much not Mastodon. I don't have any way to add alt-texts to my profile images, and I most likely never will.

Is it a sanctionable offence if I don't add alt-texts to these images due to these technical limitations?

(By the way, I do have two descriptions for my cover picture in this post; yes, that's a link. The actual post is hidden behind a summary that needs to be opened, much like a Mastodon CW. The "short" description is 1,400+ characters, it's in the alt-text which can't be accessed on a phone. The long one is 60,000+ characters; it's in the actual post text.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Hubzilla

@Ulrike E. Über Inklusion und Teilhabe, ja oder nein, muß nicht diskutiert werden.

Was ich aber sehr schade finde, ist, daß Diskussionen über das "Wie" zum einen aufgrund technischer Beschränkungen ziemlich unmöglich sind und zum anderen in der Mastodon-Kultur regelrecht abgelehnt zu werden scheinen. Wenn es um das Beschreiben von Bildern geht, heißt es immer: "Mach einfach!" Was tatsächlich gemeint ist, ist: "Mach einfach, aber richtig!" Was jetzt aber "richtig" ist, darüber will man auf Mastodon ganz offenkundig nicht reden, das hat man einfach so zu wissen. Wenn man das dann doch diskutieren will, wird man ganz schnell stummgeschaltet oder gleich ganz geblockt. Das ist unerwünscht.

Dabei gibt's da eigentlich viel zu diskutieren. Ich habe mich in den letzten paar Jahren sehr eingehend mit Alt-Texten, Bildbeschreibungen und dahingehend der Mastodon-Kultur beschäftigt, die sich ja selbst dem kompletten Fediverse aufdrängt. Ich habe mehr als 50 englischsprachige Websites, Blogposts etc. über Alt-Texte und Bildbeschreibungen gelesen. (An die Mastodon-Nutzerschaft: Das ist ein Link, den könnt ihr öffnen, auch wenn da keine URL steht. Der führt auf eine Seite in meinem im Aufbau befindlichen Wiki über Alt-Texte und Bildbeschreibungen im Fediverse.)

Mein Ziel ist, meine eigenen Bildbeschreibungen zu optimieren, soweit es irgendwie möglich ist. Und möglich ist mir an sich sehr viel.

Zum einen möchte ich die Regeln und Richtlinien, die auf all diesen Websites und in all diesen Blogposts aufgeführt werden, allesamt einhalten. Das ist schon schwierig genug, weil die sich teilweise widersprechen (z. B. das Geschlecht einer Person muß erwähnt werden vs. das Geschlecht einer Person darf auf gar keinen Fall erwähnt werden, sofern es nicht in irgendeiner Form fest definiert ist, weil das cisnormativ und queerphob wäre).

Was es noch schwieriger macht, ist, daß in den wenigsten dieser Werke auf das Fediverse eingegangen wird. Vielleicht wird Mastodon erwähnt. Aber weder wird Mastodons Kultur erwähnt, noch wird in irgendeiner Form auf das Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse eingegangen, wo man wieder ganz andere Möglichkeiten als auf Mastodon hat. Teilweise hat man dieselben Möglichkeiten wie in einem Blog.

Zum anderen gibt's dazu dann auch noch die Regeln und Richtlinien von Mastodon, die nirgendwo niedergeschrieben sind, die aber trotzdem bedingungslos einzuhalten sind, egal, ob man jetzt selbst auf Mastodon ist oder nicht. Und da kommen immer neue dazu. Da weiß ich dann nicht: Ist das jetzt der Wunsch einer einzelnen Person, oder ist das Teil der Mastodon-Kultur?

Dazu kommt dann auch noch, daß ich, wenn ich Bilder poste, nicht gerade einfache Bilder poste. Das sind keine Portraits, das sind keine Katzenfotos. Das sind entweder Memes über das Fediverse (und die sind nicht mastodonzentriert), oder es sind Memes über virtuelle 3-D-Welten, oder es sind Renderings aus virtuellen 3-D-Welten.

Da hätte ich sagenhaft viel Diskussionsbedarf, z. B.:

• Wenn ein Bildpost über ein unbekanntes, obskures Thema ist und durchschnittliche User das Bild nicht ohne Erklärung verstehen, muß dann eine Erklärung mitgeliefert werden?
  (Nachteil: Kann den Post deutlich verlängern. Und einige von uns können sehr viel auf einmal posten. Die meisten Mastodon-User haben 500 Zeichnen. Du hast 1000. Ich habe über 16,7 Millionen. Erklärungen gehören nämlich nicht in den Alt-Text, sondern in den Beitragstext, weil es Leute gibt, die keine Alt-Texte öffnen können (@Mastodon-Nutzer: wieder zwei Links auf mein Wiki))
• Darf für Erklärungen auf externe Links zurückgegriffen werden? Oder muß alles direkt im Beitrag ohne jegliche Links erklärt werden?
  (Beispiel: Darf man zum Erklären einer Memevorlage auf KnowYourMeme verlinken? Oder ist es besser, die Memevorlage direkt im Beitrag mit über 10.000 Zeichen zu erklären? Been there, done that.)
• Wenn man erwähnt, daß etwas auf dem Bild ist, muß man dann auch beschreiben, wie es aussieht?
  (Gerechtfertigt in meinem Fall. Auch wenn man weiß, wie etwas im Real Life aussieht, woher soll man dann wissen, wie es in dieser spezifischen virtuellen Welt aussieht?)
• Wenn das Thema eines Bildes User evtl. extrem macht, sollte oder muß man dann das Bild volldetailliert beschreiben, statt sich auf das zu beschränken, was im Kontext wichtig ist?
  Was, wenn das Bild selbst, das Motiv als Ganzes, der Kontext ist?
• Was ist in diesem Fall, wenn innerhalb des Bildes andere Bilder in irgendeiner Form sind? Was, wenn diese Bilder ihrerseits Orte in virtuellen Welten zeigen, an den ich mich teleportieren könnte, so daß ich diese Bilder so hochdetailliert beschreiben könnte wie mein eigenes?
  
  • Muß ich diese Bilder dann so hochdetailliert beschreiben wie mein eigenes?
    Wenn auch auf diesen Bildern wiederum Bilder sind, die virtuelle Orte zeigen, an die ich mich teleportieren könnte, wie tief muß ich dann mit volldetaillierten Bild-im-Bild-Beschreibungen gehen?
    Muß ich diese Bilder nur so detailliert beschreiben, wie sie sich vor Ort zeigen?
    Oder muß ich diese Bilder nur so detailliert beschreiben, wie sie auf meinem Bild selbst zu sehen sind?
  • Eine volldetaillierte Bildbeschreibung wird zwingend sehr lang. Mein Rekord liegt bei über 60.000 Zeichen. Angenommen, man hat im Beitragstext praktisch kein Zeichenlimit. Wo soll dann die volldetaillierte Bildbeschreibung hin?
    [list]
  • in den Beitragstext desselben Beitrags, in dem auch das Bild ist
    (Nachteil: der Post wird brutal lang, und ich werde wahrscheinlich von sehr viel mehr Mastodon-Usern gesperrt, weil dieser Post zu lang ist, als wenn ich das Bild unzureichend beschreiben würde)
  • in einen künstlich zerschnipselten Thread von auch schon mal über 100 Einzelbeiträgen, damit auch ja keiner davon die 500 Zeichen überschreitet
    (Nachteil: die Beschreibung wird zerstückelt, also unpraktisch)
  • in ein extern verlinktes Dokument
    (Nachteil: auch unpraktisch, möglicherweise nicht barrierefrei, ungetestet, die Beschreibung ist nicht da, wo das Bild ist, und die allerallermeisten Fediverse-Nutzer können keine extern verlinkbaren Dokumente anlegen)
  • in den Alt-Text, wo Bildbeschreibungen hingehören
    (Nachteil: niemand wird auch nur die technischen Möglichkeiten haben, die vollen 60.000 Zeichen angezeigt oder vorgelesen zu bekommen, und auf Mastodon werden die letzten 58.500 Zeichen automatisch komplett abgeschnitten)
  • auf eine volldetaillierte Bildbeschreibung ist auf jeden Fall unbedingt zu verzichten
    (Nachteil: dann wird einigen Leuten einiges an visueller Beschreibung fehlen, die sie möglicherweise brauchen und einfordern)
• Wenn im Beitragstext eine volldetaillierte Bildbeschreibung ist, muß dann auch zwingend im Alt-Text eine zusätzliche Bildbeschreibung stehen? Ist das unbedingte Forderung seitens Mastodons ungeschriebener Regeln und der Alt-Text-Polizei?
• Kann ich bei bestimmten Dingen davon ausgehen, daß sowieso jeder weiß, wie sie grundsätzlich aussehen? Oder habe ich sie zu beschreiben, weil es möglicherweise Leute gibt, die nicht wissen, wie sie aussehen, es aber wissen wollen? Oder habe ich ganz spezifisch sie zu beschreiben, weil man ja nicht davon ausgehen kann, daß sie in dieser spezifischen virtuellen Welt so aussehen wie im Real Life?
  Konkrete Beispiele:
  
  • Reicht es, wenn ich ein Fischgrät-Webmuster beim Namen nenne? Oder muß ich beschreiben, wie es aussieht?
  • Reicht es, wenn ich Hirschhorn-Knöpfe beim Namen nenne? Oder muß ich beschreiben, wie diese ganz spezifischen Hirschhorn-Knöpfe auf diesem ganz spezifischen Bild aussehen?
  • Reicht es, wenn ich Fullbrogue-Herrenschuhe beim Namen nenne? Oder muß ich beschreiben, wie diese ganz spezifischen Fullbrogues auf diesem ganz spezifischen Bild aussehen?
• Wenn ich Herrenschuhe habe, die keinem "Standardtyp" entsprechen, die ich also nicht einfach beim Namen nennen kann, muß ich sie dann komplett beschreiben? Muß ich also jeden einzelnen Bestandteil des Schuhs beschreiben?
  (Noch einmal zur Erinnerung: Diese Beschreibung geht in den Beitragstext und nicht in den Alt-Text. Und im Beitragstext habe ich kein wirkliches Zeichenlimit.)
• Stichwort Text-Transkripte, Teil 1: Angenommen, auf dem Bild sind über 20 einzelne Textschnipsel (Schilder, Teile eines Logos, Beschriftungen einer Teleporterkonsole etc.). Die meisten davon sind auf dem Bild, so, wie es ist, nicht lesbar. Einige sind so winzig, daß sie gar nicht sichtbar sind. Ich kann sie aber alle lesen, indem ich dahin gehe, wo das Bild entstanden ist. Also kann ich sie auch alle transkribieren.
  Die Regel besagt, daß grundsätzlich alles an Text im Bild wortwörtlich transkribiert werden muß.
  
  • Muß ich also alle Textschnipsel transkribieren, weil auch sehende User sie nicht lesen können und sehbehinderte erst recht nicht?
  • Darf ich sie transkribieren, aber es ist keine Pflicht?
  • Darf ich sie ausdrücklich gerade eben nicht transkribieren, weil sie nicht lesbar sind?
• Stichwort Text-Transkripte, Teil 2: Angenommen, auf dem Bild sind über 20 einzelne Textschnipsel. Ich habe sie alle transkribiert.
  Die Regel ist auch, daß Texte im Alt-Text transkribiert werden müssen.
  Muß ich unbedingt alle Text-Transkripte in den Alt-Text tun, weil das die Regel ist? Auch wenn es über 20 sind? Auch wenn ich sie schon in der Langbeschreibung im Beitragstext transkribiert habe?
• Stichwort Text-Transkripte, Teil 3: Die Regel sagt, daß Texte immer absolut originalidentisch zu transkribieren sind.
  Wie ist mit fremdsprachigen Texten zu verfahren?
  Mit originalidentischen Transkripten, wie die Regel sie fordert, können Screenreader nicht umgehen, wenn sie fremdsprachig sind, weil Screenreader nicht mitten im laufenden Text auf eine andere Sprache umschalten können. Eine Übersetzung braucht man ja sowieso.
  Wenn man diese Texte aber nur in Form einer Übersetzung transkribiert, ist das nicht originalidentisch, sondern eine Verfälschung.
• Stichwort Text-Transrkipte, Teil 4: Wie ist im Hinblick auf Teil 3 mit mehrsprachigen Texten zu verfahren? Z. B. ein Schild, auf dem im wesentlichen derselbe Text auf Englisch, Französisch und Deutsch steht?
• Stichwort Text-Transkripte, Teil 5: Wie ist mit Schreibfehlern zu verfahren? Ausbügeln wäre wieder eine Verfälschung. Ein originalidentisches Transkript würde aber Screenreader irritieren und ein bißchen zu deutlich auf die Schreibfehler hinweisen.
• Stichwort Text-Transkripte, Teil 6: Wenn ein Text auf dem Bild in Blockschrift geschrieben ist, ist es dann erlaubt, ihn nicht in Blockschrift zu transkribieren, damit Screenreader damit besser klarkommen? Oder ist das unzulässige Verfälschung?
• Stichwort Text-Transkripte, Teil 7: Wenn ich in einem Transkript eine Abkürzung umbaue, damit Screenreader sie möglichst garantiert richtig aussprechen, ist das erlaubt oder unzulässige Verfälschung?
  Beispiele: Abkürzungen im Gegensatz zum Original mit Punkten zwischen den Buchstaben schreiben, damit Screenreader sie buchstabieren; Abkürzungen im Gegensatz zum Original nicht in Blockschrift schreiben, damit Screenreader sie als Wort aussprechen, weil sie normalerweise als Wort ausgesprochen werden
• Müssen Bildbeschreibung zusätzlich Informationen enthalten, wie sie taubblinde Menschen gern hätten? Also taktile Informationen, will sagen, wie sich Oberflächen anfühlen, wenn man sie berührt?
  Wie ist da bei Renderings aus virtuellen Welten zu verfahren? Keine der Oberflächen dort kann berührt und gefühlt werden. Wenn ich beschreiben würde, wie sich eine Oberfläche anfühlen würde, wenn die auf die eigentlich absolut glatte Oberfläche aufgemalte Textur die wirkliche Oberfläche wäre, wäre das Fehlinformation. Selbst wenn ich beschreiben würde, wie sich ein Physically-Based-Rendering-Material anfühlen würde, wenn es real wäre und nicht einfach nur ein optischer Trick, wäre das Fehlinformation.
• Grundsätzlich: Dürfen bei Bildbeschreibungen Kompromisse gemacht werden, die zu Lasten bestimmter User gehen werden? Z. B. Verzicht auf eine Langbeschreibung, um den Beitragstext kurz zu halten; dann gibt's aber keine lange, detaillierte Beschreibung und keine Transkripte der über 20 Textschnipsel, und es gibt nicht mal irgendwelche Erklärungen.
  Oder muß vom Posten von Bildern, bei denen zuviele Kompromisse beim Beschreiben gemacht werden müssen, grundsätzlich abgesehen werden?

Das würde ich alles gern ausdiskutieren. Nicht mit einzelnen Leuten unter vier Augen, sondern in Gruppen wie in einem Forum, wo dann alle möglichen verschiedenen Leute in derselben Diskussion partizipieren können und sämtliche Beiträge voneinander sofort lesen können, ohne erst händisch danach wühlen zu müssen.

Aber zum einen geht das technisch nicht. Das ganze Thema Alt-Texte und Bildbeschreibungen spielt nur auf Mastodon eine Rolle. Alle, die darüber reden und sich dafür interessieren und das einfordern, sind auf Mastodon und im Grunde nur auf Mastodon. Aber Mastodon hat keinerlei wie auch immer geartete Unterstützung für Gruppen oder auch nur vernünftige Unterstützung von Konversationen.

Und zum anderen sind jegliche Diskussionen über das "Wie" auf Mastodon sowieso unerwünscht und ein Blockiergrund. Häufig wird sogar angenommen, wenn man über das "Wie" diskutieren will, daß man Bilder eigentlich überhaupt nicht beschreiben will. Denn sonst würde man das einfach machen. Wohlgemerkt, von vornherein richtig.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Zeichenlimit #Zeichenlimits #ZeichenlimitMeta #CWZeichenlimitMeta #MastodonKultur

@Roland Häder

So how do they think it can be enforced everywhere?

Just like they try to enforce anything everywhere.

• They'll simply tell you to do it.
• They'll lecture you about it.
• They'll call you out if you don't do it.
• Once they've caught you not doing it repeatedly, they'll insult you as ableist.
• They'll block you. Before they block you, they'll announce in public that they'll block you because you're an ableist swine who refuses to add alt-text to his images, and they'll mention you so that you can see it.
  If you're only here to get and stay in contact with a select few people, none of whom are on Mastodon, you might not care.
  But if you need a certain amount of reach especially on Mastodon, this is bad.

I've seen all the above actually happen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@Roland Häder

So how do they think it can be enforced everywhere?

Just like they try to enforce anything everywhere.

• They'll simply tell you to do it.
• They'll lecture you about it.
• They'll call you out if you don't do it.
• Once they've caught you not doing it repeatedly, they'll insult you as ableist.
• They'll block you. Before they block you, they'll announce in public that they'll block you because you're an ableist swine who refuses to add alt-text to his images, and they'll mention you so that you can see it.
  If you're only here to get and stay in contact with a select few people, none of whom are on Mastodon, you might not care.
  But if you need a certain amount of reach especially on Mastodon, this is bad.

I've seen all the above actually happen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@Roland Häder

So how do they think it can be enforced everywhere?

Just like they try to enforce anything everywhere.

• They'll simply tell you to do it.
• They'll lecture you about it.
• They'll call you out if you don't do it.
• Once they've caught you not doing it repeatedly, they'll insult you as ableist.
• They'll block you. Before they block you, they'll announce in public that they'll block you because you're an ableist swine who refuses to add alt-text to his images, and they'll mention you so that you can see it.
  If you're only here to get and stay in contact with a select few people, none of whom are on Mastodon, you might not care.
  But if you need a certain amount of reach especially on Mastodon, this is bad.

I've seen all the above actually happen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@Roland Häder

So how do they think it can be enforced everywhere?

Just like they try to enforce anything everywhere.

• They'll simply tell you to do it.
• They'll lecture you about it.
• They'll call you out if you don't do it.
• Once they've caught you not doing it repeatedly, they'll insult you as ableist.
• They'll block you. Before they block you, they'll announce in public that they'll block you because you're an ableist swine who refuses to add alt-text to his images, and they'll mention you so that you can see it.
  If you're only here to get and stay in contact with a select few people, none of whom are on Mastodon, you might not care.
  But if you need a certain amount of reach especially on Mastodon, this is bad.

I've seen all the above actually happen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta

@eshep

I've not yet seen any posts, attacking or otherwise, taking this stance

Not yet.

Right now, this feature is only available in a development version of Mastodon and only on mastodon.social. Next will be the daredevil servers that run development code to be ahead of release in features.

But eventually, a new stable release will be rolled out with this feature. More and more servers will be upgraded to this new version with this feature. Once typical activist servers like beige.party introduce it, my prediction will come true.

I have family who have varying levels of blindness who consume media from all over the internet. All of them have been quite thrilled about the state of these new robot assistants we all now have such easy access to.

Specifically assigned "alt-text" is never necessary.

People who aren't sighted are usually happy about image-describing AI because it's better than nothing, and without image-describing AI, they've got literally nothing.

In fact, however, image-describing AI is just barely better than nothing, if at all. It describes stuff that doesn't matter. It doesn't describe stuff that does matter. Most importantly, it's unreliable and inaccurate. It hallucinates and describes stuff wrongly. However, people who aren't sufficiently sighted don't know. They can't verify whether what the AI says is true because they can't see the image well enough to be able to compare it with the description.

100% hand-written alt-text is always more reliable, more accurate and more fit for the context than AI-generated alt-text will ever be.

I know from first-hand experience. I've tasked an image-describing AI with describing an image which I've described manually with no AI help first, and then I've analysed the AI description and compared it with both the actual image and my descriptions. I've even done that twice. The results were abysmal.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon

@eshep

I've not yet seen any posts, attacking or otherwise, taking this stance

Not yet.

Right now, this feature is only available in a development version of Mastodon and only on mastodon.social. Next will be the daredevil servers that run development code to be ahead of release in features.

But eventually, a new stable release will be rolled out with this feature. More and more servers will be upgraded to this new version with this feature. Once typical activist servers like beige.party introduce it, my prediction will come true.

I have family who have varying levels of blindness who consume media from all over the internet. All of them have been quite thrilled about the state of these new robot assistants we all now have such easy access to.

Specifically assigned "alt-text" is never necessary.

People who aren't sighted are usually happy about image-describing AI because it's better than nothing, and without image-describing AI, they've got literally nothing.

In fact, however, image-describing AI is just barely better than nothing, if at all. It describes stuff that doesn't matter. It doesn't describe stuff that does matter. Most importantly, it's unreliable and inaccurate. It hallucinates and describes stuff wrongly. However, people who aren't sufficiently sighted don't know. They can't verify whether what the AI says is true because they can't see the image well enough to be able to compare it with the description.

100% hand-written alt-text is always more reliable, more accurate and more fit for the context than AI-generated alt-text will ever be.

I know from first-hand experience. I've tasked an image-describing AI with describing an image which I've described manually with no AI help first, and then I've analysed the AI description and compared it with both the actual image and my descriptions. I've even done that twice. The results were abysmal.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon

@eshep

I've not yet seen any posts, attacking or otherwise, taking this stance

Not yet.

Right now, this feature is only available in a development version of Mastodon and only on mastodon.social. Next will be the daredevil servers that run development code to be ahead of release in features.

But eventually, a new stable release will be rolled out with this feature. More and more servers will be upgraded to this new version with this feature. Once typical activist servers like beige.party introduce it, my prediction will come true.

I have family who have varying levels of blindness who consume media from all over the internet. All of them have been quite thrilled about the state of these new robot assistants we all now have such easy access to.

Specifically assigned "alt-text" is never necessary.

People who aren't sighted are usually happy about image-describing AI because it's better than nothing, and without image-describing AI, they've got literally nothing.

In fact, however, image-describing AI is just barely better than nothing, if at all. It describes stuff that doesn't matter. It doesn't describe stuff that does matter. Most importantly, it's unreliable and inaccurate. It hallucinates and describes stuff wrongly. However, people who aren't sufficiently sighted don't know. They can't verify whether what the AI says is true because they can't see the image well enough to be able to compare it with the description.

100% hand-written alt-text is always more reliable, more accurate and more fit for the context than AI-generated alt-text will ever be.

I know from first-hand experience. I've tasked an image-describing AI with describing an image which I've described manually with no AI help first, and then I've analysed the AI description and compared it with both the actual image and my descriptions. I've even done that twice. The results were abysmal.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon