#cwalttextmeta — Public Fediverse posts

@Mark Wyner Won’t Comply :vm: First of all, you completely forgot the social media posters. The TOC link leads nowhere.

Also, maybe it's fair to mention that I'm working on an entire wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions, especially for the Fediverse. 46 pages are planned as of now, 24 of them are already written. These will include over 30 pages on how to do things, how not to do things and what never to do at all.

I won't add step-by-step guides for certain frontends. But I've already started adding rules and guidelines for how to describe images appropriately and write alt-texts in a way that won't break stuff anywhere.

Even if it's a very incomplete WIP, it's unique in several ways:

• It's the only wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions. Few writers have even only written multiple pages or articles on this subject.
• It's the only guide that takes the existence of the Fediverse outside of Mastodon into consideration. This means that it's also the only guide that doesn't assume that Fediverse equals always having only 500 characters for the message text. It actually recommends an additional, longer image description in the message text in certain situations, regardless of whether or not vanilla Mastodon users can do that.
• It's the only guide that, instead of regurgitating the alt-text rules for webpages and blogs and assuming that they apply to the Fediverse just the same, talks about the peculiarities of posting images into the Fediverse, how Mastodon's alt-text quality criteria are different from the W3C WAI and WCAG alt-text quality criteria, and why it's critically important to know and fulfill Mastodon's requirements for good alt-texts.
• It's probably the only guide that doesn't assume that you can always precisely target a certain audience for your content and make sure that only those receive it who understand it right off the bat.
• It is the only guide that lists over 60 references, including your blog post, but also including university webpages as well as over two dozen guides from Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Mark Wyner Won’t Comply :vm: First of all, you completely forgot the social media posters. The TOC link leads nowhere.

Also, maybe it's fair to mention that I'm working on an entire wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions, especially for the Fediverse. 46 pages are planned as of now, 24 of them are already written. These will include over 30 pages on how to do things, how not to do things and what never to do at all.

I won't add step-by-step guides for certain frontends. But I've already started adding rules and guidelines for how to describe images appropriately and write alt-texts in a way that won't break stuff anywhere.

Even if it's a very incomplete WIP, it's unique in several ways:

• It's the only wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions. Few writers have even only written multiple pages or articles on this subject.
• It's the only guide that takes the existence of the Fediverse outside of Mastodon into consideration. This means that it's also the only guide that doesn't assume that Fediverse equals always having only 500 characters for the message text. It actually recommends an additional, longer image description in the message text in certain situations, regardless of whether or not vanilla Mastodon users can do that.
• It's the only guide that, instead of regurgitating the alt-text rules for webpages and blogs and assuming that they apply to the Fediverse just the same, talks about the peculiarities of posting images into the Fediverse, how Mastodon's alt-text quality criteria are different from the W3C WAI and WCAG alt-text quality criteria, and why it's critically important to know and fulfill Mastodon's requirements for good alt-texts.
• It's probably the only guide that doesn't assume that you can always precisely target a certain audience for your content and make sure that only those receive it who understand it right off the bat.
• It is the only guide that lists over 60 references, including your blog post, but also including university webpages as well as over two dozen guides from Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Mark Wyner Won’t Comply :vm: First of all, you completely forgot the social media posters. The TOC link leads nowhere.

Also, maybe it's fair to mention that I'm working on an entire wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions, especially for the Fediverse. 46 pages are planned as of now, 24 of them are already written. These will include over 30 pages on how to do things, how not to do things and what never to do at all.

I won't add step-by-step guides for certain frontends. But I've already started adding rules and guidelines for how to describe images appropriately and write alt-texts in a way that won't break stuff anywhere.

Even if it's a very incomplete WIP, it's unique in several ways:

• It's the only wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions. Few writers have even only written multiple pages or articles on this subject.
• It's the only guide that takes the existence of the Fediverse outside of Mastodon into consideration. This means that it's also the only guide that doesn't assume that Fediverse equals always having only 500 characters for the message text. It actually recommends an additional, longer image description in the message text in certain situations, regardless of whether or not vanilla Mastodon users can do that.
• It's the only guide that, instead of regurgitating the alt-text rules for webpages and blogs and assuming that they apply to the Fediverse just the same, talks about the peculiarities of posting images into the Fediverse, how Mastodon's alt-text quality criteria are different from the W3C WAI and WCAG alt-text quality criteria, and why it's critically important to know and fulfill Mastodon's requirements for good alt-texts.
• It's probably the only guide that doesn't assume that you can always precisely target a certain audience for your content and make sure that only those receive it who understand it right off the bat.
• It is the only guide that lists over 60 references, including your blog post, but also including university webpages as well as over two dozen guides from Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Mark Wyner Won’t Comply :vm: First of all, you completely forgot the social media posters. The TOC link leads nowhere.

Also, maybe it's fair to mention that I'm working on an entire wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions, especially for the Fediverse. 46 pages are planned as of now, 24 of them are already written. These will include over 30 pages on how to do things, how not to do things and what never to do at all.

I won't add step-by-step guides for certain frontends. But I've already started adding rules and guidelines for how to describe images appropriately and write alt-texts in a way that won't break stuff anywhere.

Even if it's a very incomplete WIP, it's unique in several ways:

• It's the only wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions. Few writers have even only written multiple pages or articles on this subject.
• It's the only guide that takes the existence of the Fediverse outside of Mastodon into consideration. This means that it's also the only guide that doesn't assume that Fediverse equals always having only 500 characters for the message text. It actually recommends an additional, longer image description in the message text in certain situations, regardless of whether or not vanilla Mastodon users can do that.
• It's the only guide that, instead of regurgitating the alt-text rules for webpages and blogs and assuming that they apply to the Fediverse just the same, talks about the peculiarities of posting images into the Fediverse, how Mastodon's alt-text quality criteria are different from the W3C WAI and WCAG alt-text quality criteria, and why it's critically important to know and fulfill Mastodon's requirements for good alt-texts.
• It's probably the only guide that doesn't assume that you can always precisely target a certain audience for your content and make sure that only those receive it who understand it right off the bat.
• It is the only guide that lists over 60 references, including your blog post, but also including university webpages as well as over two dozen guides from Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Mark Wyner Won’t Comply :vm: First of all, you completely forgot the social media posters. The TOC link leads nowhere.

Also, maybe it's fair to mention that I'm working on an entire wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions, especially for the Fediverse. 46 pages are planned as of now, 24 of them are already written. These will include over 30 pages on how to do things, how not to do things and what never to do at all.

I won't add step-by-step guides for certain frontends. But I've already started adding rules and guidelines for how to describe images appropriately and write alt-texts in a way that won't break stuff anywhere.

Even if it's a very incomplete WIP, it's unique in several ways:

• It's the only wiki about alt-texts and image descriptions. Few writers have even only written multiple pages or articles on this subject.
• It's the only guide that takes the existence of the Fediverse outside of Mastodon into consideration. This means that it's also the only guide that doesn't assume that Fediverse equals always having only 500 characters for the message text. It actually recommends an additional, longer image description in the message text in certain situations, regardless of whether or not vanilla Mastodon users can do that.
• It's the only guide that, instead of regurgitating the alt-text rules for webpages and blogs and assuming that they apply to the Fediverse just the same, talks about the peculiarities of posting images into the Fediverse, how Mastodon's alt-text quality criteria are different from the W3C WAI and WCAG alt-text quality criteria, and why it's critically important to know and fulfill Mastodon's requirements for good alt-texts.
• It's probably the only guide that doesn't assume that you can always precisely target a certain audience for your content and make sure that only those receive it who understand it right off the bat.
• It is the only guide that lists over 60 references, including your blog post, but also including university webpages as well as over two dozen guides from Veronica Lewis a.k.a. Veronica with Four Eyes.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@On a Third Photography Write your image descriptions 100% by hand, full stop.

For starters, AI descriptions are bad. AIs hallucinate. AIs misidentify stuff if they don't know it. AIs don't mention stuff at all if they don't know it.

Besides, AIs can only generate generic image descriptions. They don't know the context. They describe stuff that doesn't matter for anyone. They completely omit stuff that does matter because they don't know that it matters. Only you yourself can individually tailor image descriptions to the context of the post.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@On a Third Photography Write your image descriptions 100% by hand, full stop.

For starters, AI descriptions are bad. AIs hallucinate. AIs misidentify stuff if they don't know it. AIs don't mention stuff at all if they don't know it.

Besides, AIs can only generate generic image descriptions. They don't know the context. They describe stuff that doesn't matter for anyone. They completely omit stuff that does matter because they don't know that it matters. Only you yourself can individually tailor image descriptions to the context of the post.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@On a Third Photography Write your image descriptions 100% by hand, full stop.

For starters, AI descriptions are bad. AIs hallucinate. AIs misidentify stuff if they don't know it. AIs don't mention stuff at all if they don't know it.

Besides, AIs can only generate generic image descriptions. They don't know the context. They describe stuff that doesn't matter for anyone. They completely omit stuff that does matter because they don't know that it matters. Only you yourself can individually tailor image descriptions to the context of the post.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@On a Third Photography Write your image descriptions 100% by hand, full stop.

For starters, AI descriptions are bad. AIs hallucinate. AIs misidentify stuff if they don't know it. AIs don't mention stuff at all if they don't know it.

Besides, AIs can only generate generic image descriptions. They don't know the context. They describe stuff that doesn't matter for anyone. They completely omit stuff that does matter because they don't know that it matters. Only you yourself can individually tailor image descriptions to the context of the post.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@On a Third Photography Write your image descriptions 100% by hand, full stop.

For starters, AI descriptions are bad. AIs hallucinate. AIs misidentify stuff if they don't know it. AIs don't mention stuff at all if they don't know it.

Besides, AIs can only generate generic image descriptions. They don't know the context. They describe stuff that doesn't matter for anyone. They completely omit stuff that does matter because they don't know that it matters. Only you yourself can individually tailor image descriptions to the context of the post.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Jakob Rosin To be honest, what I had in mind wasn't screenshots of text although describing screenshots of foreign-language text can be tricky itself.

Here are some snippets from my first long image description. It's outdated in a way, but it provides good examples. And this image description did go into the message text (with an additional, shorter description in the alt-text).

On the ramp to the teleporter, there is a black sign that reads, "Wenn Durchgehen nicht klappt, Klicken Sie das Bild zum Teleportieren. When Walk-Through does not work, Click the Image to teleport."

The column between the passageways in the background to the left carries a black sign with group joiners for the Metropolis Newsnet group. The sign has the octagonal red Metropolis logo with a white M in the middle and a white edge around it in the top left corner. To the right of the logo, it is labelled in white, "Metropolis Newsnet Gruppe" which is partly German and translates to "Metropolis Newsnet Group". The writing below reads, "Aktuelle Informationen um Metropolis" and "Ankündigungen, Infos, Events, Fragen und Antworten im Chat" which is mostly German and translates to "Announcements, infos, events, questions and answers in the chat". The small neon green writing at the bottom edge reads, "Klick hier und folge dem Link im allgemeinen Chat, um der Gruppe beizutreten. Im Gruppenfenster JOIN klicken.(Click here to join the Metropolis Newsnet group." The German part of this translates to, "Click here and follow the link in the general chat to join the group. In the group window, click JOIN." Right below the black sign are three clickable white panels with black writings on them, "deutsch", "français" and "english".

To my best knowledge, there's no way a screen reader can switch from English to German, to English, to German, to English within one sentence. Or from English to German, to French, back to English, again, within one sentence.

Or how about these two sentences from another, even longer image description?

At the bottom of this area, "Patefacio radix" is written in medium dark grey letters, in a wide sans-serif typeface and in what is likely to be small caps. It is Latin for "open source".

The screen reader would have to switch from English to Latin, back to English, mid-sentence, not to mention that the screen reader would have to know how to properly pronounce a dead language.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts #ForeignLanguage

@Jakob Rosin To be honest, what I had in mind wasn't screenshots of text although describing screenshots of foreign-language text can be tricky itself.

Here are some snippets from my first long image description. It's outdated in a way, but it provides good examples. And this image description did go into the message text (with an additional, shorter description in the alt-text).

On the ramp to the teleporter, there is a black sign that reads, "Wenn Durchgehen nicht klappt, Klicken Sie das Bild zum Teleportieren. When Walk-Through does not work, Click the Image to teleport."

The column between the passageways in the background to the left carries a black sign with group joiners for the Metropolis Newsnet group. The sign has the octagonal red Metropolis logo with a white M in the middle and a white edge around it in the top left corner. To the right of the logo, it is labelled in white, "Metropolis Newsnet Gruppe" which is partly German and translates to "Metropolis Newsnet Group". The writing below reads, "Aktuelle Informationen um Metropolis" and "Ankündigungen, Infos, Events, Fragen und Antworten im Chat" which is mostly German and translates to "Announcements, infos, events, questions and answers in the chat". The small neon green writing at the bottom edge reads, "Klick hier und folge dem Link im allgemeinen Chat, um der Gruppe beizutreten. Im Gruppenfenster JOIN klicken.(Click here to join the Metropolis Newsnet group." The German part of this translates to, "Click here and follow the link in the general chat to join the group. In the group window, click JOIN." Right below the black sign are three clickable white panels with black writings on them, "deutsch", "français" and "english".

To my best knowledge, there's no way a screen reader can switch from English to German, to English, to German, to English within one sentence. Or from English to German, to French, back to English, again, within one sentence.

Or how about these two sentences from another, even longer image description?

At the bottom of this area, "Patefacio radix" is written in medium dark grey letters, in a wide sans-serif typeface and in what is likely to be small caps. It is Latin for "open source".

The screen reader would have to switch from English to Latin, back to English, mid-sentence, not to mention that the screen reader would have to know how to properly pronounce a dead language.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts #ForeignLanguage

@Jakob Rosin To be honest, what I had in mind wasn't screenshots of text although describing screenshots of foreign-language text can be tricky itself.

Here are some snippets from my first long image description. It's outdated in a way, but it provides good examples. And this image description did go into the message text (with an additional, shorter description in the alt-text).

On the ramp to the teleporter, there is a black sign that reads, "Wenn Durchgehen nicht klappt, Klicken Sie das Bild zum Teleportieren. When Walk-Through does not work, Click the Image to teleport."

The column between the passageways in the background to the left carries a black sign with group joiners for the Metropolis Newsnet group. The sign has the octagonal red Metropolis logo with a white M in the middle and a white edge around it in the top left corner. To the right of the logo, it is labelled in white, "Metropolis Newsnet Gruppe" which is partly German and translates to "Metropolis Newsnet Group". The writing below reads, "Aktuelle Informationen um Metropolis" and "Ankündigungen, Infos, Events, Fragen und Antworten im Chat" which is mostly German and translates to "Announcements, infos, events, questions and answers in the chat". The small neon green writing at the bottom edge reads, "Klick hier und folge dem Link im allgemeinen Chat, um der Gruppe beizutreten. Im Gruppenfenster JOIN klicken.(Click here to join the Metropolis Newsnet group." The German part of this translates to, "Click here and follow the link in the general chat to join the group. In the group window, click JOIN." Right below the black sign are three clickable white panels with black writings on them, "deutsch", "français" and "english".

To my best knowledge, there's no way a screen reader can switch from English to German, to English, to German, to English within one sentence. Or from English to German, to French, back to English, again, within one sentence.

Or how about these two sentences from another, even longer image description?

At the bottom of this area, "Patefacio radix" is written in medium dark grey letters, in a wide sans-serif typeface and in what is likely to be small caps. It is Latin for "open source".

The screen reader would have to switch from English to Latin, back to English, mid-sentence, not to mention that the screen reader would have to know how to properly pronounce a dead language.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts #ForeignLanguage

@Jakob Rosin To be honest, what I had in mind wasn't screenshots of text although describing screenshots of foreign-language text can be tricky itself.

Here are some snippets from my first long image description. It's outdated in a way, but it provides good examples. And this image description did go into the message text (with an additional, shorter description in the alt-text).

On the ramp to the teleporter, there is a black sign that reads, "Wenn Durchgehen nicht klappt, Klicken Sie das Bild zum Teleportieren. When Walk-Through does not work, Click the Image to teleport."

The column between the passageways in the background to the left carries a black sign with group joiners for the Metropolis Newsnet group. The sign has the octagonal red Metropolis logo with a white M in the middle and a white edge around it in the top left corner. To the right of the logo, it is labelled in white, "Metropolis Newsnet Gruppe" which is partly German and translates to "Metropolis Newsnet Group". The writing below reads, "Aktuelle Informationen um Metropolis" and "Ankündigungen, Infos, Events, Fragen und Antworten im Chat" which is mostly German and translates to "Announcements, infos, events, questions and answers in the chat". The small neon green writing at the bottom edge reads, "Klick hier und folge dem Link im allgemeinen Chat, um der Gruppe beizutreten. Im Gruppenfenster JOIN klicken.(Click here to join the Metropolis Newsnet group." The German part of this translates to, "Click here and follow the link in the general chat to join the group. In the group window, click JOIN." Right below the black sign are three clickable white panels with black writings on them, "deutsch", "français" and "english".

To my best knowledge, there's no way a screen reader can switch from English to German, to English, to German, to English within one sentence. Or from English to German, to French, back to English, again, within one sentence.

Or how about these two sentences from another, even longer image description?

At the bottom of this area, "Patefacio radix" is written in medium dark grey letters, in a wide sans-serif typeface and in what is likely to be small caps. It is Latin for "open source".

The screen reader would have to switch from English to Latin, back to English, mid-sentence, not to mention that the screen reader would have to know how to properly pronounce a dead language.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts #ForeignLanguage

@Prof. Rachel Thorn 🍉🇺🇦🏳️‍⚧️🏳️ Just out of curiosity: Are there any good excuses for not having added an alt-text that you'd accept?

For example, when someone new to Hubzilla tells you that they neither know what alt-text is nor how to add it? Hubzilla doesn't have dedicated UI elements for adding alt-texts. Images are embedded into posts like in blog posts rather than attached as files like on Mastodon. Alt-texts have to be manually woven into the image-embedding phpBB code, and the newbie might not know that this is explained in Hubzilla's built-in help, or it's simply too tedious to "program" an alt-text in.

Or when a Hubzilla veteran of over ten years tells you that Hubzilla has no way whatsoever to add an alt-text to a video? Like images, videos are embedded into posts. But the video-embedding code has no option for an alt-text. Granted, if it's a video, I'd rather expect or supply a full, time-coded transcript in the message text. But maybe what's expected is both a full, time-coded transcript and an alt-text that's sufficiently detailed by Mastodon's standards.

If neither of these are acceptable to you, there's something else you should know: Hubzilla does not support Mastodon's report feature either because that's a non-standard, homegrown Mastodon feature, and Hubzilla is not built against Mastodon. So if you report someone to their Hubzilla admin, the admin simply will never receive your report.

This is likely to lead Mastodon users into believing that either the server on the other end is unmoderated (which, in Hubzilla's case and by Mastodon's standards, is technically true because Hubzilla is all about self-moderation), or the admin doesn't care, both of which, by Mastodon's standards, is reason enough to have the server Fediblocked.

Again, I'm just being curious and cautious. You should not believe that I'm trying to weasel myself out of having to describe images.

After all, I'm working on an extensive wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse with 50+ pages with dozens of webpages and blog posts on how to describe images. I'm using the same knowledge that I'm pouring into the wiki, the same rules and guidelines that already have or will have wiki pages, to describe my own images, even though some of them collide with each other and with Mastodon's image description preferences and quality standards. I don't think anyone else in the Fediverse is taking describing images more seriously.

I rarely post images anymore due to the effort involved. But whenever I do, I take all the effort that's needed to both describe and explain them, taking into consideration the context, Mastodon's culture and preferences regarding alt-texts and image descriptions, the potential target audience and what knowledge they may or may not have about what's in the image. I've declared all my existing image descriptions outdated, also because it'd be too tedious to go and upgrade them all whenever I learn something new about describing images. (Don't go looking for my most recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere now because Hubzilla can't make Mastodon blur sensitive images.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Prof. Rachel Thorn 🍉🇺🇦🏳️‍⚧️🏳️ Just out of curiosity: Are there any good excuses for not having added an alt-text that you'd accept?

For example, when someone new to Hubzilla tells you that they neither know what alt-text is nor how to add it? Hubzilla doesn't have dedicated UI elements for adding alt-texts. Images are embedded into posts like in blog posts rather than attached as files like on Mastodon. Alt-texts have to be manually woven into the image-embedding phpBB code, and the newbie might not know that this is explained in Hubzilla's built-in help, or it's simply too tedious to "program" an alt-text in.

Or when a Hubzilla veteran of over ten years tells you that Hubzilla has no way whatsoever to add an alt-text to a video? Like images, videos are embedded into posts. But the video-embedding code has no option for an alt-text. Granted, if it's a video, I'd rather expect or supply a full, time-coded transcript in the message text. But maybe what's expected is both a full, time-coded transcript and an alt-text that's sufficiently detailed by Mastodon's standards.

If neither of these are acceptable to you, there's something else you should know: Hubzilla does not support Mastodon's report feature either because that's a non-standard, homegrown Mastodon feature, and Hubzilla is not built against Mastodon. So if you report someone to their Hubzilla admin, the admin simply will never receive your report.

This is likely to lead Mastodon users into believing that either the server on the other end is unmoderated (which, in Hubzilla's case and by Mastodon's standards, is technically true because Hubzilla is all about self-moderation), or the admin doesn't care, both of which, by Mastodon's standards, is reason enough to have the server Fediblocked.

Again, I'm just being curious and cautious. You should not believe that I'm trying to weasel myself out of having to describe images.

After all, I'm working on an extensive wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse with 50+ pages with dozens of webpages and blog posts on how to describe images. I'm using the same knowledge that I'm pouring into the wiki, the same rules and guidelines that already have or will have wiki pages, to describe my own images, even though some of them collide with each other and with Mastodon's image description preferences and quality standards. I don't think anyone else in the Fediverse is taking describing images more seriously.

I rarely post images anymore due to the effort involved. But whenever I do, I take all the effort that's needed to both describe and explain them, taking into consideration the context, Mastodon's culture and preferences regarding alt-texts and image descriptions, the potential target audience and what knowledge they may or may not have about what's in the image. I've declared all my existing image descriptions outdated, also because it'd be too tedious to go and upgrade them all whenever I learn something new about describing images. (Don't go looking for my most recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere now because Hubzilla can't make Mastodon blur sensitive images.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Prof. Rachel Thorn 🍉🇺🇦🏳️‍⚧️🏳️ Just out of curiosity: Are there any good excuses for not having added an alt-text that you'd accept?

For example, when someone new to Hubzilla tells you that they neither know what alt-text is nor how to add it? Hubzilla doesn't have dedicated UI elements for adding alt-texts. Images are embedded into posts like in blog posts rather than attached as files like on Mastodon. Alt-texts have to be manually woven into the image-embedding phpBB code, and the newbie might not know that this is explained in Hubzilla's built-in help, or it's simply too tedious to "program" an alt-text in.

Or when a Hubzilla veteran of over ten years tells you that Hubzilla has no way whatsoever to add an alt-text to a video? Like images, videos are embedded into posts. But the video-embedding code has no option for an alt-text. Granted, if it's a video, I'd rather expect or supply a full, time-coded transcript in the message text. But maybe what's expected is both a full, time-coded transcript and an alt-text that's sufficiently detailed by Mastodon's standards.

If neither of these are acceptable to you, there's something else you should know: Hubzilla does not support Mastodon's report feature either because that's a non-standard, homegrown Mastodon feature, and Hubzilla is not built against Mastodon. So if you report someone to their Hubzilla admin, the admin simply will never receive your report.

This is likely to lead Mastodon users into believing that either the server on the other end is unmoderated (which, in Hubzilla's case and by Mastodon's standards, is technically true because Hubzilla is all about self-moderation), or the admin doesn't care, both of which, by Mastodon's standards, is reason enough to have the server Fediblocked.

Again, I'm just being curious and cautious. You should not believe that I'm trying to weasel myself out of having to describe images.

After all, I'm working on an extensive wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse with 50+ pages with dozens of webpages and blog posts on how to describe images. I'm using the same knowledge that I'm pouring into the wiki, the same rules and guidelines that already have or will have wiki pages, to describe my own images, even though some of them collide with each other and with Mastodon's image description preferences and quality standards. I don't think anyone else in the Fediverse is taking describing images more seriously.

I rarely post images anymore due to the effort involved. But whenever I do, I take all the effort that's needed to both describe and explain them, taking into consideration the context, Mastodon's culture and preferences regarding alt-texts and image descriptions, the potential target audience and what knowledge they may or may not have about what's in the image. I've declared all my existing image descriptions outdated, also because it'd be too tedious to go and upgrade them all whenever I learn something new about describing images. (Don't go looking for my most recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere now because Hubzilla can't make Mastodon blur sensitive images.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Prof. Rachel Thorn 🍉🇺🇦🏳️‍⚧️🏳️ Just out of curiosity: Are there any good excuses for not having added an alt-text that you'd accept?

For example, when someone new to Hubzilla tells you that they neither know what alt-text is nor how to add it? Hubzilla doesn't have dedicated UI elements for adding alt-texts. Images are embedded into posts like in blog posts rather than attached as files like on Mastodon. Alt-texts have to be manually woven into the image-embedding phpBB code, and the newbie might not know that this is explained in Hubzilla's built-in help, or it's simply too tedious to "program" an alt-text in.

Or when a Hubzilla veteran of over ten years tells you that Hubzilla has no way whatsoever to add an alt-text to a video? Like images, videos are embedded into posts. But the video-embedding code has no option for an alt-text. Granted, if it's a video, I'd rather expect or supply a full, time-coded transcript in the message text. But maybe what's expected is both a full, time-coded transcript and an alt-text that's sufficiently detailed by Mastodon's standards.

If neither of these are acceptable to you, there's something else you should know: Hubzilla does not support Mastodon's report feature either because that's a non-standard, homegrown Mastodon feature, and Hubzilla is not built against Mastodon. So if you report someone to their Hubzilla admin, the admin simply will never receive your report.

This is likely to lead Mastodon users into believing that either the server on the other end is unmoderated (which, in Hubzilla's case and by Mastodon's standards, is technically true because Hubzilla is all about self-moderation), or the admin doesn't care, both of which, by Mastodon's standards, is reason enough to have the server Fediblocked.

Again, I'm just being curious and cautious. You should not believe that I'm trying to weasel myself out of having to describe images.

After all, I'm working on an extensive wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse with 50+ pages with dozens of webpages and blog posts on how to describe images. I'm using the same knowledge that I'm pouring into the wiki, the same rules and guidelines that already have or will have wiki pages, to describe my own images, even though some of them collide with each other and with Mastodon's image description preferences and quality standards. I don't think anyone else in the Fediverse is taking describing images more seriously.

I rarely post images anymore due to the effort involved. But whenever I do, I take all the effort that's needed to both describe and explain them, taking into consideration the context, Mastodon's culture and preferences regarding alt-texts and image descriptions, the potential target audience and what knowledge they may or may not have about what's in the image. I've declared all my existing image descriptions outdated, also because it'd be too tedious to go and upgrade them all whenever I learn something new about describing images. (Don't go looking for my most recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere now because Hubzilla can't make Mastodon blur sensitive images.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@OhSnap!Dragon You can type numbers. Screen readers will read them out as numbers and not as individual digits.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@OhSnap!Dragon You can type numbers. Screen readers will read them out as numbers and not as individual digits.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@OhSnap!Dragon You can type numbers. Screen readers will read them out as numbers and not as individual digits.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@OhSnap!Dragon You can type numbers. Screen readers will read them out as numbers and not as individual digits.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@OhSnap!Dragon You can type numbers. Screen readers will read them out as numbers and not as individual digits.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Dustin @Markus Redeker 🐘 @Elmar Billen Moment, mal langsam.

Es dürfen nie Informationen ausschließlich im Alt-Text verfügbar sein! Keine Erklärungen und auch sonst nichts.

Alles an schriftlichen Informationen, was für sehende Menschen nicht aus dem Bild direkt ersichtlich ist, gehört in den Beitragstext.

Der Grund ist: Es gibt Menschen, die an Alt-Texte nicht herankommen.

Man braucht ja, um an einen Alt-Text heranzukommen, einen Touchscreen oder so etwas wie eine Maus. Manche Menschen können aber aufgrund körperlicher Behinderungen beides nur schlecht oder gar nicht bedienen, z. B., weil sie einen sehr starken Tremor haben (Parkinson o. ä.) oder gleich überhaupt keine Hände. Trotzdem können sie einen Computer bedienen. Aber sie können eben keine kleine "Alt"-Schaltfläche klicken oder tippen und auch keinen Mauscursor auf ein Bild schieben und ihn da liegenlassen.

Andere haben selbstauferlegte technische Einschränkungen. Manche Hardcore-Linux-Nutzer haben sich entschieden für einen super-leichtgewichtigen, spartanischen Fenstermanager wie i3wm oder ratpoison, der aber keine Unterstützung für eine Maus hat. Es dürfte aber wohl kein Web-Frontend im Fediverse geben, wo man den Alt-Text eines Bildes mit einem Tastatur-Shortcut öffnen kann.

Was im Alt-Text steht, können diese Menschen nicht lesen, weil sie den Alt-Text gar nicht erst öffnen können. Das heißt: Informationen, die nur im Alt-Text stehen, sind ihnen verwehrt.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #Inklusion #Barrierefreiheit

@Dustin Hier bin ich ein bißchen im Zwiespalt.

Einerseits sagt dir jeder Alt-Text-Guide im Web, daß Alt-Texte kurz und prägnant sein müssen. Andererseits liebt die Mastodon-Kultur aber detaillierte Bildbeschreibungen. So manch einem Mastodon-Nutzer wird das hier zu knapp sein.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta

@Frank Heijkamp @Feisty @Christine Malec Maybe I haven't told you this yet, but:

Explanations do not belong into the alt-text!

Alt-text must never contain exclusive information that's neither in the post text nor visible to sighted users in the image.

That's because, just like there are people who cannot see the image, there are people who cannot access alt-text. Be it because of physical disabilities (they don't have at least one sufficiently working hand which is a hard requirement for accessing alt-text), be it because of technical limitations (*nix window managers like i3 or ratpoison don't support pointing devices of any kind, so there's no mouse cursor that could hover over an image).

Any explanations or other information that's only in the alt-text is inaccessible to these people.

Therefore, explanations, creator credits, license information and other extra information always go into the message text!

Reference link if you don't believe me: https://www.kwbell.eu/mastonotes/alt-text-for-mastodon-images/ by @KB

Reference posts from someone who actually can't access alt-texts:

RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110685869957855464
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690586917684870
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690592405651398
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110690603250669254
RE: https://hachyderm.io/@gnomicutterance/110691919197248049

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@David Since you're on Mastodon, you most likely haven't read this comment of mine. So here it is again:

RE: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/762e395f-8033-4fae-a636-058b185fc8b4

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuotePost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@David Since you're on Mastodon, you most likely haven't read this comment of mine. So here it is again:

RE: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/762e395f-8033-4fae-a636-058b185fc8b4

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuotePost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@David Since you're on Mastodon, you most likely haven't read this comment of mine. So here it is again:

RE: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/762e395f-8033-4fae-a636-058b185fc8b4

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuotePost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@David Since you're on Mastodon, you most likely haven't read this comment of mine. So here it is again:

RE: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/762e395f-8033-4fae-a636-058b185fc8b4

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuotePost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@David Since you're on Mastodon, you most likely haven't read this comment of mine. So here it is again:

RE: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/762e395f-8033-4fae-a636-058b185fc8b4

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuotePost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@bufalo1973 Having the informative part both in the alt-text and in the message text is redundant. Besides, having the informative part in the alt-text just inflates the alt-text.

I think there are three reasons why Mastodon users stuff all kinds of information into the alt-text. One is that they sincerely believe that any and all information about the image must go into the alt-text because it's image-related. Some are actually being told exactly this.

Another one is that most of them have only got 500 characters for the toot, minus hashtags, minus mentions, minus even the CW. But they've got 1,500 characters per image that they don't have to share with anything else.

Lastly, all they know about accessibility, they know from fully sighted laypeople who actually don't know anything about accessibility themselves. They don't even have the foggiest idea just how exactly alt-texts help blind or visually-impaired users. They know nothing about screen readers, they know nothing about Braille displays, they don't even know that either exist, because neither do those who have told them about alt-text.

Sorry to say, but the accessibility that's so firmly engrained into Mastodon's culture which is being forced upon the rest of the Fediverse often isn't even really accessible.

But you have to look at it from the perspective of screen reader users: They actually have a big problem with long alt-texts. Screen readers can navigate the message text, e.g. jump back a few words or sentences to some point in the middle of the text. But they can't do that with alt-texts.

If you give them a 1,200-character alt-text because you felt like you had to squeeze tons of information in, and they get distracted around the 1,100-character mark, they can't just jump back a sentence. They can only jump back to the beginning of the alt-text and have the whole alt-text read out to them once again.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #MastodonCulture #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@bufalo1973 Having the informative part both in the alt-text and in the message text is redundant. Besides, having the informative part in the alt-text just inflates the alt-text.

I think there are three reasons why Mastodon users stuff all kinds of information into the alt-text. One is that they sincerely believe that any and all information about the image must go into the alt-text because it's image-related. Some are actually being told exactly this.

Another one is that most of them have only got 500 characters for the toot, minus hashtags, minus mentions, minus even the CW. But they've got 1,500 characters per image that they don't have to share with anything else.

Lastly, all they know about accessibility, they know from fully sighted laypeople who actually don't know anything about accessibility themselves. They don't even have the foggiest idea just how exactly alt-texts help blind or visually-impaired users. They know nothing about screen readers, they know nothing about Braille displays, they don't even know that either exist, because neither do those who have told them about alt-text.

Sorry to say, but the accessibility that's so firmly engrained into Mastodon's culture which is being forced upon the rest of the Fediverse often isn't even really accessible.

But you have to look at it from the perspective of screen reader users: They actually have a big problem with long alt-texts. Screen readers can navigate the message text, e.g. jump back a few words or sentences to some point in the middle of the text. But they can't do that with alt-texts.

If you give them a 1,200-character alt-text because you felt like you had to squeeze tons of information in, and they get distracted around the 1,100-character mark, they can't just jump back a sentence. They can only jump back to the beginning of the alt-text and have the whole alt-text read out to them once again.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #MastodonCulture #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@bufalo1973 @Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 Unlike what's being falsely taught on Mastodon, alt-text is meant to be a drop-in replacement for the image. It is only for a visual description of the image. It is not meant to be informative.

In general, explanations and other additional information that aren't immediately available in the image to sighted people do not belong into the alt-text.

That's because the assumption that everyone can access alt-text is just as false as the assumption that everyone can see the image.

Just like not everyone has two working eyes, not everyone has two working hands which are a hard requirement for opening an alt-text unless they use a screen reader.

Any additional information must always go into the message text.

CC: @<10%

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@bufalo1973 @Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 Unlike what's being falsely taught on Mastodon, alt-text is meant to be a drop-in replacement for the image. It is only for a visual description of the image. It is not meant to be informative.

In general, explanations and other additional information that aren't immediately available in the image to sighted people do not belong into the alt-text.

That's because the assumption that everyone can access alt-text is just as false as the assumption that everyone can see the image.

Just like not everyone has two working eyes, not everyone has two working hands which are a hard requirement for opening an alt-text unless they use a screen reader.

Any additional information must always go into the message text.

CC: @<10%

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@bufalo1973 @Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 Unlike what's being falsely taught on Mastodon, alt-text is meant to be a drop-in replacement for the image. It is only for a visual description of the image. It is not meant to be informative.

In general, explanations and other additional information that aren't immediately available in the image to sighted people do not belong into the alt-text.

That's because the assumption that everyone can access alt-text is just as false as the assumption that everyone can see the image.

Just like not everyone has two working eyes, not everyone has two working hands which are a hard requirement for opening an alt-text unless they use a screen reader.

Any additional information must always go into the message text.

CC: @<10%

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@bufalo1973 @Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 Unlike what's being falsely taught on Mastodon, alt-text is meant to be a drop-in replacement for the image. It is only for a visual description of the image. It is not meant to be informative.

In general, explanations and other additional information that aren't immediately available in the image to sighted people do not belong into the alt-text.

That's because the assumption that everyone can access alt-text is just as false as the assumption that everyone can see the image.

Just like not everyone has two working eyes, not everyone has two working hands which are a hard requirement for opening an alt-text unless they use a screen reader.

Any additional information must always go into the message text.

CC: @<10%

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@bufalo1973 @Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 Unlike what's being falsely taught on Mastodon, alt-text is meant to be a drop-in replacement for the image. It is only for a visual description of the image. It is not meant to be informative.

In general, explanations and other additional information that aren't immediately available in the image to sighted people do not belong into the alt-text.

That's because the assumption that everyone can access alt-text is just as false as the assumption that everyone can see the image.

Just like not everyone has two working eyes, not everyone has two working hands which are a hard requirement for opening an alt-text unless they use a screen reader.

Any additional information must always go into the message text.

CC: @<10%

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Tyler Sticka @Old Man Vandehey @Neatnik :prami: I have a problem with this. But I probably only have this problem because whenever I post an image, it's about an extremely obscure niche topic. (Don't go looking for my recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere and even there only recently.)

When you're describing an image to a friend, first of all, you're describing the image to only one person. You probably already know that person. You can at least estimate what they know about the image you're going to describe. If not, you can ask them what they know, what they don't know, what they need to know, what they want to know.

And then you can tailor your description to the individual wants and needs of that one specific person. And you can add the explanations which this person needs and omit the explanations which this person doesn't need.

In case they don't understand something, or if they want to know more details, they can interrupt you mid-describing and ask you.

But when you're describing an image for the Fediverse, you're describing it for potentionally everyone in the Fediverse (and everyone on the Web, unless you restrict the permission to view your post). You don't know all these people, there's no way you can.

You simply can't go around and ask millions of Fediverse users and billions of Web users, one by one, what they know about the topic of your image, what they don't know etc. Neither can you predict who exactly will receive your post and then only go and ask these people in advance.

Even if you could, you can't tailor your image description and accompanying explanations to the individual needs of many people. Especially not if you're going to post that image only once for everyone all the same.

Worse yet, they can't interrupt you mid-describing and ask you for explanations either. They'll get the entire description plus your explanations all at once.

Thus, you have to describe and explain your image for everyone all the same with no regards for individual needs. You have to cover everyone's potential needs right away.

Let's take (link CW: eye contact, meme, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta) this image, for example. I've actually used it in a Fediverse meme post.

If I were to describe it to one friend, I'd ask the friend if they're familiar with the "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" meme template, and if they're familiar with FEP-ef61 "Portable Objects". Honestly, I expect hardly anyone to know both.

If they aren't familiar with FEP-ef61, and they most likely aren't, I'd ask them if they know nomadic identity, and if they know the streams repository, because knowing both is required for my explanation of FEP-ef61. They probably don't know either, so I'd explain the streams repository to them, including rattling down the whole 16-year history of the software family from Mistpark/Friendica to Forte. When I reach the rewriting of Red in 2012, I'd explain the concept of nomadic identity because it was then when it was first implemented. And even that I could only do if they knew the Fediverse. If not, I'd go start with the Fediverse.

If they aren't familiar with "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor", I'd ask them if I could send them a link to the KnowYourMeme page, or if they need it described by me. If the latter, I'd ask them if they're familiar with the concepts of snowclones and image macros. And so forth. Whatever they aren't familiar with, I'd explain it to them.

As for the visuals, I'd ask them if they need a visual description of what Boromir looks like, regardless of whether or not this matters in the context. I'd also ask them how familiar they are with The Lord of the Rings and specifically the Peter Jackson films. For this may require even more explanations.

How am I supposed to do any of this with an audience of many? Right, I can't.

And so I have to deliver all necessary explanations in the message text, right beneath the image itself, just in case someone needs them. And let's face it, most people will need them. The explanation of the image macro itself plus another eight explanations in order for people to understand the main explanation. Over 25,000 characters if they consider links to external explanations bad.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Tyler Sticka @Old Man Vandehey @Neatnik :prami: I have a problem with this. But I probably only have this problem because whenever I post an image, it's about an extremely obscure niche topic. (Don't go looking for my recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere and even there only recently.)

When you're describing an image to a friend, first of all, you're describing the image to only one person. You probably already know that person. You can at least estimate what they know about the image you're going to describe. If not, you can ask them what they know, what they don't know, what they need to know, what they want to know.

And then you can tailor your description to the individual wants and needs of that one specific person. And you can add the explanations which this person needs and omit the explanations which this person doesn't need.

In case they don't understand something, or if they want to know more details, they can interrupt you mid-describing and ask you.

But when you're describing an image for the Fediverse, you're describing it for potentionally everyone in the Fediverse (and everyone on the Web, unless you restrict the permission to view your post). You don't know all these people, there's no way you can.

You simply can't go around and ask millions of Fediverse users and billions of Web users, one by one, what they know about the topic of your image, what they don't know etc. Neither can you predict who exactly will receive your post and then only go and ask these people in advance.

Even if you could, you can't tailor your image description and accompanying explanations to the individual needs of many people. Especially not if you're going to post that image only once for everyone all the same.

Worse yet, they can't interrupt you mid-describing and ask you for explanations either. They'll get the entire description plus your explanations all at once.

Thus, you have to describe and explain your image for everyone all the same with no regards for individual needs. You have to cover everyone's potential needs right away.

Let's take (link CW: eye contact, meme, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta) this image, for example. I've actually used it in a Fediverse meme post.

If I were to describe it to one friend, I'd ask the friend if they're familiar with the "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" meme template, and if they're familiar with FEP-ef61 "Portable Objects". Honestly, I expect hardly anyone to know both.

If they aren't familiar with FEP-ef61, and they most likely aren't, I'd ask them if they know nomadic identity, and if they know the streams repository, because knowing both is required for my explanation of FEP-ef61. They probably don't know either, so I'd explain the streams repository to them, including rattling down the whole 16-year history of the software family from Mistpark/Friendica to Forte. When I reach the rewriting of Red in 2012, I'd explain the concept of nomadic identity because it was then when it was first implemented. And even that I could only do if they knew the Fediverse. If not, I'd go start with the Fediverse.

If they aren't familiar with "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor", I'd ask them if I could send them a link to the KnowYourMeme page, or if they need it described by me. If the latter, I'd ask them if they're familiar with the concepts of snowclones and image macros. And so forth. Whatever they aren't familiar with, I'd explain it to them.

As for the visuals, I'd ask them if they need a visual description of what Boromir looks like, regardless of whether or not this matters in the context. I'd also ask them how familiar they are with The Lord of the Rings and specifically the Peter Jackson films. For this may require even more explanations.

How am I supposed to do any of this with an audience of many? Right, I can't.

And so I have to deliver all necessary explanations in the message text, right beneath the image itself, just in case someone needs them. And let's face it, most people will need them. The explanation of the image macro itself plus another eight explanations in order for people to understand the main explanation. Over 25,000 characters if they consider links to external explanations bad.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Tyler Sticka @Old Man Vandehey @Neatnik :prami: I have a problem with this. But I probably only have this problem because whenever I post an image, it's about an extremely obscure niche topic. (Don't go looking for my recent images on this channel; I post my images elsewhere and even there only recently.)

When you're describing an image to a friend, first of all, you're describing the image to only one person. You probably already know that person. You can at least estimate what they know about the image you're going to describe. If not, you can ask them what they know, what they don't know, what they need to know, what they want to know.

And then you can tailor your description to the individual wants and needs of that one specific person. And you can add the explanations which this person needs and omit the explanations which this person doesn't need.

In case they don't understand something, or if they want to know more details, they can interrupt you mid-describing and ask you.

But when you're describing an image for the Fediverse, you're describing it for potentionally everyone in the Fediverse (and everyone on the Web, unless you restrict the permission to view your post). You don't know all these people, there's no way you can.

You simply can't go around and ask millions of Fediverse users and billions of Web users, one by one, what they know about the topic of your image, what they don't know etc. Neither can you predict who exactly will receive your post and then only go and ask these people in advance.

Even if you could, you can't tailor your image description and accompanying explanations to the individual needs of many people. Especially not if you're going to post that image only once for everyone all the same.

Worse yet, they can't interrupt you mid-describing and ask you for explanations either. They'll get the entire description plus your explanations all at once.

Thus, you have to describe and explain your image for everyone all the same with no regards for individual needs. You have to cover everyone's potential needs right away.

Let's take (link CW: eye contact, meme, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta) this image, for example. I've actually used it in a Fediverse meme post.

If I were to describe it to one friend, I'd ask the friend if they're familiar with the "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" meme template, and if they're familiar with FEP-ef61 "Portable Objects". Honestly, I expect hardly anyone to know both.

If they aren't familiar with FEP-ef61, and they most likely aren't, I'd ask them if they know nomadic identity, and if they know the streams repository, because knowing both is required for my explanation of FEP-ef61. They probably don't know either, so I'd explain the streams repository to them, including rattling down the whole 16-year history of the software family from Mistpark/Friendica to Forte. When I reach the rewriting of Red in 2012, I'd explain the concept of nomadic identity because it was then when it was first implemented. And even that I could only do if they knew the Fediverse. If not, I'd go start with the Fediverse.

If they aren't familiar with "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor", I'd ask them if I could send them a link to the KnowYourMeme page, or if they need it described by me. If the latter, I'd ask them if they're familiar with the concepts of snowclones and image macros. And so forth. Whatever they aren't familiar with, I'd explain it to them.

As for the visuals, I'd ask them if they need a visual description of what Boromir looks like, regardless of whether or not this matters in the context. I'd also ask them how familiar they are with The Lord of the Rings and specifically the Peter Jackson films. For this may require even more explanations.

How am I supposed to do any of this with an audience of many? Right, I can't.

And so I have to deliver all necessary explanations in the message text, right beneath the image itself, just in case someone needs them. And let's face it, most people will need them. The explanation of the image macro itself plus another eight explanations in order for people to understand the main explanation. Over 25,000 characters if they consider links to external explanations bad.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Kiloku - Secretário do Caos @Neatnik :prami: I've been working on an entire wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts for the Fediverse for quite a while now. It's far from finished, not even half of the over 50 pages planned right now are written.

As of now, it'll have 32 rules and guidelines on what to do, how to do it and what not to do. The huge majority of these are completely unknown in the Fediverse otherwise.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Kiloku - Secretário do Caos @Neatnik :prami: I've been working on an entire wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts for the Fediverse for quite a while now. It's far from finished, not even half of the over 50 pages planned right now are written.

As of now, it'll have 32 rules and guidelines on what to do, how to do it and what not to do. The huge majority of these are completely unknown in the Fediverse otherwise.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Kiloku - Secretário do Caos @Neatnik :prami: I've been working on an entire wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts for the Fediverse for quite a while now. It's far from finished, not even half of the over 50 pages planned right now are written.

As of now, it'll have 32 rules and guidelines on what to do, how to do it and what not to do. The huge majority of these are completely unknown in the Fediverse otherwise.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Robert Kingett I've read somewhere that some blind people prefer LLM-generated image descriptions to human-written image descriptions because they're more entertaining. LLM-generated image descriptions often add some whimsy whereas human-written image descriptions just dryly rattle down what's in the image. Basically, through the screen reader, humans sound more like machines than actual machines.

They usually are aware that LLMs tend to be hallucinating and essentially telling them non-sense. But I've read from one blind user that they don't care whether or not the LLM-generated description is accurate as long as the accuracy isn't a matter of life and death.

In a certain way, it is understandable. The only people who'd criticise an image description for being inaccurate are fully sighted and therefore capable of comparing the image with its description.

Blind people won't notice unless the image description describes something so outlandish to them that they have the impression of an utterly surrealist image where there shouldn't be a surrealist image.

On the other hand, there are also blind people who demand image descriptions be accurate. They simply don't want to be told non-sense, especially not without knowing that they're being told non-sense.

But even on the sighted side, there's the "human versus AI" debate.

Some sighted people are fully convinced that LLMs can describe absolutely every image perfectly in absolutely every situation, no matter how obscure the contents of the image are. They're fully convinced that a generic LLM like ChatGPT can write circles around even human experts at any given time.

Some are simply AI fanbois or fangurls. Others say so in order to convince themselves that what they're doing is the best way: They use image-describing LLMs or even general-purpose LLMs as fire-and-forget tools. They have image descriptions generated, they copy-paste these image descriptions into the alt-texts, they send their posts, and they never take a look at these image descriptions at any point in the process. It's more convenient this way.

And then they wonder why they're under attack from sighted alt-text activists who call them out for their painfully inaccurate and blatantly obvious AI slop.

LLM proponents, both sighted and non-sighted, have in common that they never compare the image and the description. Non-sighted LLM proponents simply can't see the image. Sighted LLM proponents put so much faith into LLMs that they can't be bothered to read the description and cross-check it with the image.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AI #LLM #LLMs #AIVsHuman #HumanVsAI

@Robert Kingett I've read somewhere that some blind people prefer LLM-generated image descriptions to human-written image descriptions because they're more entertaining. LLM-generated image descriptions often add some whimsy whereas human-written image descriptions just dryly rattle down what's in the image. Basically, through the screen reader, humans sound more like machines than actual machines.

They usually are aware that LLMs tend to be hallucinating and essentially telling them non-sense. But I've read from one blind user that they don't care whether or not the LLM-generated description is accurate as long as the accuracy isn't a matter of life and death.

In a certain way, it is understandable. The only people who'd criticise an image description for being inaccurate are fully sighted and therefore capable of comparing the image with its description.

Blind people won't notice unless the image description describes something so outlandish to them that they have the impression of an utterly surrealist image where there shouldn't be a surrealist image.

On the other hand, there are also blind people who demand image descriptions be accurate. They simply don't want to be told non-sense, especially not without knowing that they're being told non-sense.

But even on the sighted side, there's the "human versus AI" debate.

Some sighted people are fully convinced that LLMs can describe absolutely every image perfectly in absolutely every situation, no matter how obscure the contents of the image are. They're fully convinced that a generic LLM like ChatGPT can write circles around even human experts at any given time.

Some are simply AI fanbois or fangurls. Others say so in order to convince themselves that what they're doing is the best way: They use image-describing LLMs or even general-purpose LLMs as fire-and-forget tools. They have image descriptions generated, they copy-paste these image descriptions into the alt-texts, they send their posts, and they never take a look at these image descriptions at any point in the process. It's more convenient this way.

And then they wonder why they're under attack from sighted alt-text activists who call them out for their painfully inaccurate and blatantly obvious AI slop.

LLM proponents, both sighted and non-sighted, have in common that they never compare the image and the description. Non-sighted LLM proponents simply can't see the image. Sighted LLM proponents put so much faith into LLMs that they can't be bothered to read the description and cross-check it with the image.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AI #LLM #LLMs #AIVsHuman #HumanVsAI

@Robert Kingett I've read somewhere that some blind people prefer LLM-generated image descriptions to human-written image descriptions because they're more entertaining. LLM-generated image descriptions often add some whimsy whereas human-written image descriptions just dryly rattle down what's in the image. Basically, through the screen reader, humans sound more like machines than actual machines.

They usually are aware that LLMs tend to be hallucinating and essentially telling them non-sense. But I've read from one blind user that they don't care whether or not the LLM-generated description is accurate as long as the accuracy isn't a matter of life and death.

In a certain way, it is understandable. The only people who'd criticise an image description for being inaccurate are fully sighted and therefore capable of comparing the image with its description.

Blind people won't notice unless the image description describes something so outlandish to them that they have the impression of an utterly surrealist image where there shouldn't be a surrealist image.

On the other hand, there are also blind people who demand image descriptions be accurate. They simply don't want to be told non-sense, especially not without knowing that they're being told non-sense.

But even on the sighted side, there's the "human versus AI" debate.

Some sighted people are fully convinced that LLMs can describe absolutely every image perfectly in absolutely every situation, no matter how obscure the contents of the image are. They're fully convinced that a generic LLM like ChatGPT can write circles around even human experts at any given time.

Some are simply AI fanbois or fangurls. Others say so in order to convince themselves that what they're doing is the best way: They use image-describing LLMs or even general-purpose LLMs as fire-and-forget tools. They have image descriptions generated, they copy-paste these image descriptions into the alt-texts, they send their posts, and they never take a look at these image descriptions at any point in the process. It's more convenient this way.

And then they wonder why they're under attack from sighted alt-text activists who call them out for their painfully inaccurate and blatantly obvious AI slop.

LLM proponents, both sighted and non-sighted, have in common that they never compare the image and the description. Non-sighted LLM proponents simply can't see the image. Sighted LLM proponents put so much faith into LLMs that they can't be bothered to read the description and cross-check it with the image.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AI #LLM #LLMs #AIVsHuman #HumanVsAI

@Robert Kingett I've read somewhere that some blind people prefer LLM-generated image descriptions to human-written image descriptions because they're more entertaining. LLM-generated image descriptions often add some whimsy whereas human-written image descriptions just dryly rattle down what's in the image. Basically, through the screen reader, humans sound more like machines than actual machines.

They usually are aware that LLMs tend to be hallucinating and essentially telling them non-sense. But I've read from one blind user that they don't care whether or not the LLM-generated description is accurate as long as the accuracy isn't a matter of life and death.

In a certain way, it is understandable. The only people who'd criticise an image description for being inaccurate are fully sighted and therefore capable of comparing the image with its description.

Blind people won't notice unless the image description describes something so outlandish to them that they have the impression of an utterly surrealist image where there shouldn't be a surrealist image.

On the other hand, there are also blind people who demand image descriptions be accurate. They simply don't want to be told non-sense, especially not without knowing that they're being told non-sense.

But even on the sighted side, there's the "human versus AI" debate.

Some sighted people are fully convinced that LLMs can describe absolutely every image perfectly in absolutely every situation, no matter how obscure the contents of the image are. They're fully convinced that a generic LLM like ChatGPT can write circles around even human experts at any given time.

Some are simply AI fanbois or fangurls. Others say so in order to convince themselves that what they're doing is the best way: They use image-describing LLMs or even general-purpose LLMs as fire-and-forget tools. They have image descriptions generated, they copy-paste these image descriptions into the alt-texts, they send their posts, and they never take a look at these image descriptions at any point in the process. It's more convenient this way.

And then they wonder why they're under attack from sighted alt-text activists who call them out for their painfully inaccurate and blatantly obvious AI slop.

LLM proponents, both sighted and non-sighted, have in common that they never compare the image and the description. Non-sighted LLM proponents simply can't see the image. Sighted LLM proponents put so much faith into LLMs that they can't be bothered to read the description and cross-check it with the image.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AI #LLM #LLMs #AIVsHuman #HumanVsAI

@Robert Kingett I've read somewhere that some blind people prefer LLM-generated image descriptions to human-written image descriptions because they're more entertaining. LLM-generated image descriptions often add some whimsy whereas human-written image descriptions just dryly rattle down what's in the image. Basically, through the screen reader, humans sound more like machines than actual machines.

They usually are aware that LLMs tend to be hallucinating and essentially telling them non-sense. But I've read from one blind user that they don't care whether or not the LLM-generated description is accurate as long as the accuracy isn't a matter of life and death.

In a certain way, it is understandable. The only people who'd criticise an image description for being inaccurate are fully sighted and therefore capable of comparing the image with its description.

Blind people won't notice unless the image description describes something so outlandish to them that they have the impression of an utterly surrealist image where there shouldn't be a surrealist image.

On the other hand, there are also blind people who demand image descriptions be accurate. They simply don't want to be told non-sense, especially not without knowing that they're being told non-sense.

But even on the sighted side, there's the "human versus AI" debate.

Some sighted people are fully convinced that LLMs can describe absolutely every image perfectly in absolutely every situation, no matter how obscure the contents of the image are. They're fully convinced that a generic LLM like ChatGPT can write circles around even human experts at any given time.

Some are simply AI fanbois or fangurls. Others say so in order to convince themselves that what they're doing is the best way: They use image-describing LLMs or even general-purpose LLMs as fire-and-forget tools. They have image descriptions generated, they copy-paste these image descriptions into the alt-texts, they send their posts, and they never take a look at these image descriptions at any point in the process. It's more convenient this way.

And then they wonder why they're under attack from sighted alt-text activists who call them out for their painfully inaccurate and blatantly obvious AI slop.

LLM proponents, both sighted and non-sighted, have in common that they never compare the image and the description. Non-sighted LLM proponents simply can't see the image. Sighted LLM proponents put so much faith into LLMs that they can't be bothered to read the description and cross-check it with the image.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AI #LLM #LLMs #AIVsHuman #HumanVsAI

@DavidM_yeg @Dennis What more is needed?

A full visual description of the settings, the people (of course, avoiding their gender and describing their skin tone rather than their race), their outfits, the surroundings?

The title of the film, including an explanation what this film is, who made it, what it is about, when it was released, who the characters are and who the actors are?

Regardless of neither of this belonging into the alt-text because information that is neither available in the message text nor plainly visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into the alt-text? Because there are people who cannot access alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)explain(20)things(20)or(20)give(20)other(20)information(20)only(20)in(20)alt-text(21)

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

And, pray tell, how is all this supposed to fit in 512 characters or fewer so that Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Sharkey, CherryPick and the other Misskey forks won't discard the alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/How(20)long(20)can(20)alt-text(20)be(3f)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #CherryPick #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@DavidM_yeg @Dennis What more is needed?

A full visual description of the settings, the people (of course, avoiding their gender and describing their skin tone rather than their race), their outfits, the surroundings?

The title of the film, including an explanation what this film is, who made it, what it is about, when it was released, who the characters are and who the actors are?

Regardless of neither of this belonging into the alt-text because information that is neither available in the message text nor plainly visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into the alt-text? Because there are people who cannot access alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)explain(20)things(20)or(20)give(20)other(20)information(20)only(20)in(20)alt-text(21)

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

And, pray tell, how is all this supposed to fit in 512 characters or fewer so that Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Sharkey, CherryPick and the other Misskey forks won't discard the alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/How(20)long(20)can(20)alt-text(20)be(3f)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #CherryPick #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@DavidM_yeg @Dennis What more is needed?

A full visual description of the settings, the people (of course, avoiding their gender and describing their skin tone rather than their race), their outfits, the surroundings?

The title of the film, including an explanation what this film is, who made it, what it is about, when it was released, who the characters are and who the actors are?

Regardless of neither of this belonging into the alt-text because information that is neither available in the message text nor plainly visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into the alt-text? Because there are people who cannot access alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)explain(20)things(20)or(20)give(20)other(20)information(20)only(20)in(20)alt-text(21)

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

And, pray tell, how is all this supposed to fit in 512 characters or fewer so that Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Sharkey, CherryPick and the other Misskey forks won't discard the alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/How(20)long(20)can(20)alt-text(20)be(3f)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #CherryPick #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@DavidM_yeg @Dennis What more is needed?

A full visual description of the settings, the people (of course, avoiding their gender and describing their skin tone rather than their race), their outfits, the surroundings?

The title of the film, including an explanation what this film is, who made it, what it is about, when it was released, who the characters are and who the actors are?

Regardless of neither of this belonging into the alt-text because information that is neither available in the message text nor plainly visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into the alt-text? Because there are people who cannot access alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)explain(20)things(20)or(20)give(20)other(20)information(20)only(20)in(20)alt-text(21)

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

And, pray tell, how is all this supposed to fit in 512 characters or fewer so that Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Sharkey, CherryPick and the other Misskey forks won't discard the alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/How(20)long(20)can(20)alt-text(20)be(3f)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #CherryPick #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@DavidM_yeg @Dennis What more is needed?

A full visual description of the settings, the people (of course, avoiding their gender and describing their skin tone rather than their race), their outfits, the surroundings?

The title of the film, including an explanation what this film is, who made it, what it is about, when it was released, who the characters are and who the actors are?

Regardless of neither of this belonging into the alt-text because information that is neither available in the message text nor plainly visible to sighted users in the image does not belong into the alt-text? Because there are people who cannot access alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)explain(20)things(20)or(20)give(20)other(20)information(20)only(20)in(20)alt-text(21)

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)

And, pray tell, how is all this supposed to fit in 512 characters or fewer so that Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Sharkey, CherryPick and the other Misskey forks won't discard the alt-text?

https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/How(20)long(20)can(20)alt-text(20)be(3f)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp-JS #Sharkey #CherryPick #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Danny Boling ☮️ @ADHDeanASL I'm already trying my best. I'm probably way ahead of your requirements. And I'm still constantly trying to up my game and be ahead of everyone's requirements.

I've been "studying" alt-texts and image descriptions both generally and in the Fediverse/in Mastodon's culture for a few years. I've read over 50 alt-text guides on the Web; here's a list I've compiled, complete with links: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Other(20)resources(20)on(20)image(20)descriptions(20)and(20)alt-text.

In case the page behind this link wasn't obvious enough: Yes, I'm working on a wiki about image descriptions and alt-texts in the Fediverse. I take this topic that seriously. As it stands now, I have a bit over 30 rules that had better or actually must be followed when describing images and writing alt-texts in and for the Fediverse.

When I post images, I try hard to follow all these rules. I take into consideration who may receive my image post, what they know about what's in the image, what they don't know, what they may want to know and how curious they may potentially be about the topic, and I write my image descriptions accordingly. I also take the special culture in the Fediverse and particularly on Mastodon into consideration, especially Mastodon's fondness of very detailed image descriptions as well as Mastodon's dislike of having to ask for further information; at least I perceive the latter.

This is also why I rarely post images anymore. (Don't go looking for recent images on this channel that I'm commenting from right now. I've quit posting images here two years ago. I post them elsewhere in the Fediverse now and even that only rarely.) Posting and describing images properly is a huge undertaking if your image posts are all about super-obscure topics. And mine are.

The only images I've posted over the last two years are memes. They're fairly easy to handle. They only need one visual description, ideally a fairly short one even, and it goes into the alt-text. Still, they require explanations if folks won't understand them right off the bat. And they certainly won't understand my memes about the Fediverse or about very obscure 3-D virtual worlds.

In order to keep my meme posts a bit less extensive, I resort to linking to KnowYourMeme for explanations of meme templates. The alternative that many would prefer would be for me to explain the meme templates in the post, but that would add another five-digit number of characters to the post. Been there, actually done that: "One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor" required over 12,000 characters of explanation.

I'd also post renderings from the 3-D virtual worlds that I sometimes meme about. But the effort to do so is a whole lot bigger. That's because I describe each one of my virtual world renderings twice. One is the "short" description that goes into the alt-text. The other one is the "long", actually fully detailed description that goes into the message text. The latter contains transcripts of all bits of text within the borders of the image, readable in the image or not. It also contains all explanations necessary to understand the image and its descriptions.

I haven't posted any virtual world renderings in two years now. I've been working on and off on a series of simple avatar portraits in slightly different outfits for over a year and a half now, and even the first image with three portraits isn't done yet, much less all four image for the first post or actually all images in the series.

My personal record of fairly uninterrupted image-describing is two full days, once for three images with some 73,000 characters of long descriptions, once for a single image with over 60,000 characters of long description. The latter does not include distilling the short description for the alt-text from the long description; I had to do that the morning of the third day.

Why they have to be that long? Here's my explanation: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/95b6e36d-7fcd-4791-8cc1-c93e8b9975a3.

Unfortunately, I don't have any example of a 3-D virtual world rendering that's recent enough that the image descriptions aren't painfully outdated.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta