#movers-mindset — Public Fediverse posts

Remodeling with Sean Hannah

https://moversmindset.com/remodeling-with-sean-hannah/

What does it take to stop avoiding pain and instead use it as a guide for rebuilding the body?

The same movements that caused injury can heal it when performed slowly, partially, and with intention.

What we try to do is get people to understand that if you have pain, if you have a limitation, you don’t stop doing the thing that hurt it. You do the thing that hurt it, slow, partial, light, take it down to the baby amount, the tolerable amount, and then start pushing it back up the scale. And by the time you can do it fast and heavy again, you’re healed. Congratulations.

~ Sean Hannah (9:19)

The conversation explores why most people avoid the slow, deliberate work required to truly rehabilitate injuries rather than just return to basic function. The distinction between physical therapy (designed for baseline recovery) and full joint remodeling (a months-to-years process typically reserved for elite athletes) forms the foundation of the discussion. The key insight is that healing requires doing the same movements that caused injury—but slower, lighter, and more partial—rather than avoiding them entirely.

Pain emerges as a multifaceted phenomenon with three distinct layers: actual tissue damage, neuropathic pain (trauma responses encoded in nerves and fascia), and centralized pain (psychological amplification based on beliefs and language). The conversation addresses how someone might present with a knee problem but actually need a full head-to-toe biomechanical remodel, with the knee simply being where the dysfunction surfaces most visibly. The discussion also touches on the origins of the nickname “Seanobi” (an Irish ninja wordplay), the value of intuitive three-dimensional movement versus linear athletic training, and the importance of having something worth playing for as the motivational spark that makes the difficult rehabilitation process possible.

Takeaways

Remodeling versus physical therapy — Physical therapy aims for basic function, but returning to athletic capability requires a separate, longer process called remodeling that most people don’t know exists.

The spark — Without something you love doing that’s disappearing or already gone, you won’t sustain the slow, frustrating work of rehabilitation.

Same movements, different parameters — Healing doesn’t require new exercises; it uses the same movements that caused injury, performed slower, lighter, and more partially.

Three layers of pain — Pain includes actual tissue damage, neuropathic responses stored in nerves and fascia, and psychological amplification based on perception and language.

Language affects pain signaling — The words used to describe pain directly influence how much pain is felt; changing the narrative can dampen signaling and allow greater loading.

The blowout point — A presenting injury like a knee problem is often just where a full-body biomechanical imbalance surfaces most visibly.

Tissue-specific protocols — Pace, load, and angle can be adjusted to target specific tissues: nerve and fascia respond to different parameters than muscle and bone.

Guarding responses — Much of chronic pain isn’t damage but protective contractions and nerve issues that require precise loading to release.

Threading the needle — Effective rehabilitation requires enough stress to trigger healing responses without crossing the threshold into new damage.

Intuitive versus linear training — Three-dimensional, intuitive movement serves rehabilitation and durability, while linear athletic training like Olympic lifting builds speed and power for sport.

The dial metaphor — Training exists on a spectrum from slow, rehabilitative, three-dimensional work to fast, linear, athletic work, and the dial can be adjusted based on daily capacity.

Becoming your own maintenance mechanic — The goal of guided rehabilitation is independence—learning to address pain and maintain the body without ongoing professional help.

Resources

Monkey Do — “What Moves You?” Sean Hannah’s guided mobility and joint remodeling programs.

Monkey Do on YouTube — video content related to the mobility and rehabilitation approach.

Designing curriculum, teaching seniors, and the mid-range — Sean’s previous conversation on Movers Mindset covering related topics.

Katy Bowman — mentioned regarding how too much “vitamin flat and level” is a problem.

Iron Gump / MIST — a Movers Mindset conversation discussing meditative strength training.

Parkour Generations — the organization behind American Rendezvous where Craig and Sean last met in person.

(Written with help from Claude.ai)

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Subtraction with Nima King

https://moversmindset.com/subtraction-with-nima-king/

What happens when you stop trying so hard and learn to find power through subtraction rather than addition?

Wing Chun training in a Hong Kong living room involves hours of standing still with no sparring, forcing practitioners to confront inner demons and abandon Western goal-seeking mentality.

I’ll tell you, Craig, this was the hardest thing at that time that I had to go through, both physically and mentally, because […] it’s just so difficult, you know, standing still there, not moving. It’s just so difficult! All these inner demons start to come up. You start thinking, and you know, there’s nowhere to hide.

~ Nima King (5:17)

Nima King describes his journey from training as a teenaged bouncer in Sydney, to becoming a student of Grandmaster Chu in Hong Kong, where his expectations of intense sparring and rooftop battles were replaced by hours of standing practice in a small living room. The training focused on empty hand forms rather than fighting techniques, creating a physically and mentally challenging experience where inner demons surfaced and there was nowhere to hide. Grandmaster Chu provided hands-on guidance through tactile cues, manipulating posture and stance to help students release tension points gradually rather than through sudden breakthrough moments. The practice required abandoning the Western mindset of conceptualization and goal-seeking in favor of embodied experience, with Nima’s teacher eventually banning him from asking questions to force this transition.

The conversation explores how martial arts principles apply to modern life, including parenting and professional goals. Nima discusses the challenge of not trying too hard despite his natural inclination toward the mentality of pushing through pain and injury. The practice teaches that letting go of control represents a powerful act rather than laziness or apathy, and that vulnerability challenges conventional masculine ideals of strength through aggression. Grandmaster Chu exemplified this power through humility, always bowing lower and greeting students with warmth rather than displays of dominance. The art becomes about subtraction rather than accumulation, finding ways to achieve goals with less effort by allowing things to happen rather than forcing them.

Takeaways

Art of subtraction — The practice centers on removing tension and thinking rather than accumulating more techniques and knowledge.

Embodied learning versus intellectual understanding — True martial arts mastery requires moving beyond conceptualization and goal-seeking to direct physical experience.

Standing practice — Hours of stationary training in Wing Chun forms create confrontation with inner demons and reveal hidden tension points.

Power through vulnerability — Real strength comes from humility and openness rather than aggression and displays of dominance.

Letting go of control — Releasing the illusion of control represents a powerful and necessary practice in both martial arts and daily life.

Western versus Eastern training approaches — The goal-oriented Western mindset conflicts with traditional Chinese martial arts teaching methods that resist curriculum and structure.

Tactile teaching methods — Hands-on guidance through physical manipulation of posture and stance provides direct transmission of knowledge beyond verbal instruction.

Marathon not sprint mentality — Sustainable practice requires wisdom about energy management and avoiding burnout despite natural inclinations to go all in.

Teacher-student dynamics — A master may ban questions entirely to force students beyond intellectual grasping toward direct experience.

Applying practice to parenting — Martial arts lessons about letting go transfer to raising children, finding balance between freedom and structure.

Humble mastery — Grandmaster Chu demonstrated true power through kindness, bowing lower than students, and warmth rather than displays of superiority.

Not trying too hard — Finding ways to achieve goals with less effort by allowing rather than forcing outcomes.

Resources

Mindful Wing Chun — Nima King’s online training platform offering comprehensive instruction in the Wing Chun system as taught by Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin, featuring hundreds of hours of instructional videos focused on internal power development and mindful practice.

Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin — Nima’s Wing Chun teacher in Hong Kong, trained in traditional methods and taught in his living room.

Grandmaster Jim Fung — Grandmaster Chu’s student, who taught Wing Chun to thousands of students across Australia, under whom Nima began training at age 14.

(written with help from Claude.ai)

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«Partage» with Stany Foucher

https://moversmindset.com/partage-with-stany-foucher/

What new formats and practices best transmit Art du Déplacement’s culture—beyond technique—so practitioners can reflect, connect, and grow together?

Art du Déplacement’s culture is deepened through «partage», reflective practice formats, and distinctive training like vision work and night missions.

Still, I had the fear, but I knew where I was, where I was going, [and] how— I knew myself better, basically. So this very strong experience with my friends, and this strong experience of failure— That was really an in between moment for me. […]There is before that training session at the «Dame du Lac» experiencing all this. And then there is me discovering more about my inner self and being very different in the way I approach fear.

~ Stany Foucher (1:33:00)

The discussion frames Art du Déplacement as a living culture rather than simply a set of techniques. Stany’s recently published, French-language book is highlighted as a deliberate choice, made with the awareness that language shapes who can engage with the ideas. (Craig and Stany hope that an English translation can eventually be created which captures the subtlety and depth of the material.) The strengths of books—slower pacing and deeper digestion—are compared to the reach and immediacy of video. This leads to exploring audio as a practice medium, with the idea of podcast-led movement sessions modeled on audio yoga classes. The conversation also touches on the value of building shared reference points across the community, so practitioners in different places can connect through common experiences.

Practice design is a recurring theme. The Movers Mindset Pause project is discussed as a way to help practitioners form a cycle from discovery to reflection to change. Coaching is discussed as more than sets and repetitions, incorporating environment, questioning, and reframing experiences. Public-space QM is described as a way to normalize human movement in busy urban settings, reducing self-consciousness and building autonomy. The pair note the importance of training “vision” as a standalone capacity, distinct from fear management or technical skill.

Maybe one thing that I’m trying to focus on sometimes is this vision element of the discipline. Vision is really a topic by itself. If you just try to be in an analyzing mode, you know, trying to analyze the environment and be— not measuring, but just feeling— not for the sake of techniques, but just vision for vision. Maybe new things can arise.

~ Stany Foucher (58:00)

They describe silent, “night missions” where participants select a distant, barely visible endpoint and navigate to it without touching the ground, focusing on presence, creative pathfinding, and trajectory rather than named techniques. Other modalities—lifting, carrying, climbing, and playing on varied terrain—are folded into practice to broaden capacity. Social aspects like shared meals, walks, and storytelling are recognized as essential for transmitting culture, complementing formal training.

But something that I really get, also from those years of training, and maybe you don’t see it is, all the questioning behind it. I cannot think of a training that would not end with a question— [an] open question from—especially from Jann [Hnautra]—just reflecting on what you did. Why were you in that state of mind when we’re doing this movement? Why did you want to stop when you were doing the QM? Lots of questions and reflecting on what you did. I think this is an important piece of the training.

~ Stany Foucher (28:00)

Personal philosophy surfaces through parenting analogies—providing environments where children retain innate movement abilities—and a formative story of a major failure that marked a clear “before and after” in approaching fear. The conversation closes with reflections on building community connection despite geographic distance, testing new formats for sharing practice, and maintaining a loop where ideas, movement, and reflection continually reinforce each other.

Takeaways

Language shapes reach — Choosing French vs. English determines who can read, hear, and benefit.

Books slow the pace — A book supports digestion of concepts that video often rushes past.

Podcast as training — Audio sessions can guide live movement for listeners who learn by hearing.

Build a reflection loop — Journaling and the Pause practice embed discovery to reflection to efficacy.

Coaching beyond technique — The value includes questions, environment, and pointing in the right direction.

Normalize movement in public — Holding QM sessions in busy spaces reduces self-consciousness and increases autonomy.

Train vision explicitly — Treat “vision” as its own topic, not only fear or technique.

Use night missions — Silent, goal-directed traversals cultivate presence and creative pathfinding.

Mix natural modalities — Lifting, carrying, climbing, and terrain play (rocks, slopes) broaden practice.

«Partage» matters — Sharing stories, meals, and walks transmits culture that classes alone can’t.

Parenting reframes coaching — Provide safe environments so kids don’t lose what they already have.

Failure as inflection point — A hard setback created a clear “before/after” in approach to fear.

Resources

https://wiseflow.fr/ — Stany Foucher’s website for his book, podcast, and more.

Art du Déplacement: Au delà de saut — French-language book discussed as framing the culture beyond movement; available as EPUB globally and in print within Europe.

Wise Flow — Stany’s French-language podcast.

craigconstantine.com — Craig’s personal web site with links to everything he does.

Movers Mindset’s Pause — The new Pause publication is a weekly email publication designed for movement professionals—coaches, teachers, gym owners, and practitioners—who want to slow down and reconnect with their deeper why.

Stany Boulifard Mallet: Art du Déplacement, the Yamakasi, and motivation — Stany’s first appearance, back in 2018, on the Movers Mindset podcast.

Art du Déplacement (ADD) — Information about Art du Déplacement in general.

Parkour & Art du déplacement: Lessons in practical wisdom – Leçons de sagesse pratique — Vincent Thibault’s 2015 book discussed in this podcast. The book contains both the French and English text. Don’t confuse it with the similarly named, but completely different book, “Parkour and the Art du déplacement: Strength, Dignity, Community”, published in 2014. There is also a second edition, which is French-language only.

Out on the Wire — Book by Jessica Abel recommended by Craig as a book about podcasting, presented as a graphic-novel-style work interviewing leading creators.

Meditations — Book by Marcus Aurelius (translated by Gregory Hayes) mentioned by Craig as his most-read book.

Quadrupedal Movement (QM) — A practice and movement pattern emphasized in this episode and in Art du Déplacement generally.

Communication with Vincent Thibault — Vincent Thibault’s episode on Movers Mindset.

Move NYC — Public event in New York City mentioned by Craig in reference to normalizing human movement in busy spaces.

Joan of Arc Garden, in Quebec City — Location and statue mentioned by Craig as a setting for personal reflection.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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2,800 weeks of progress

All original parts, some wear. As I’m starting to look for opportunities to coach in movement spaces, a headshot is a requisite.

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Curiosity with David Wilson

https://moversmindset.com/curiosity-with-david-wilson/

How can older adults reclaim movement as a joyful, empowering part of life despite pervasive cultural narratives about aging?

Letting go of perfectionism opens the door to playfulness and self-compassion.

If I can be more compassionate toward myself, I can let go of this addiction to competence and just let myself try, and suck. So yeah, I have come to embrace the idea that if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly and playfully.

~ David Wilson (48:45)

This conversation with David Wilson explores how movement intersects with aging, self-perception, and cultural narratives. David begins by addressing how deeply internalized ageist beliefs affect people’s willingness to move, take up space, and try new things. The discussion challenges the idea that aging necessitates physical decline, emphasizing instead that variety in movement and awareness of personal stories can lead to growth and transformation at any age. David also critiques societal pressures that promote fear-based motivation, and he encourages a shift toward framing movement as a present-moment gift.

The conversation moves through practical barriers and misconceptions that keep people inactive, such as rigid goals, perfectionism, and the belief that certain types of exercise are required. It emphasizes meeting oneself where one is, using personal values rather than fixed goals as guides. The importance of self-compassion, playfulness, and the willingness to “do things badly” is highlighted as a more sustainable path toward movement. There’s also a critique of mainstream fitness messaging, which often excludes older populations by failing to address their actual lived experiences.

Takeaways

Internalized ageism — Movement hesitancy is often rooted in lifelong exposure to ageist narratives absorbed from a very young age.

Misconceptions about aging — Many decline-related assumptions are not due to age itself but to reduced movement and lifestyle limitations.

Curiosity over goals — Letting go of rigid, timeline-based goals makes space for exploration and deeper engagement with movement.

Compassionate self-awareness — Bringing compassion into one’s personal practice enables growth without harsh self-judgment.

Playfulness as practice — Play offers a route to joy and learning, especially valuable when countering addiction to competence.

Movement generalism — A broad, varied movement practice supports better adaptability and long-term capability.

Fear-based fitness culture — Much mainstream messaging about aging and exercise motivates through fear instead of empowerment.

Efficiency of the body — The body conserves resources by shedding unused capabilities, so maintaining movement variety is crucial.

Accessible movement — Movement does not require equipment, special clothing, or gym memberships—it can be integrated into daily life.

Time as a barrier — A perceived lack of time is the most common excuse for not moving, yet even minutes of activity show measurable benefits.

Specificity of training — Effective physical preparation must match the demands of real environments rather than generic or repetitive exercise.

Gratitude for the body — Pausing to appreciate the body’s enduring support helps reframe limitations and fosters a more engaged relationship with movement.

Imagination of aging — How one envisions growing older strongly influences present decisions about health and movement.

Practice as identity — How we treat ourselves in movement mirrors how we show up in the world and in relationships.

Resources

OldsCoolMoves on Instagram

OldsCoolMoves website — David Wilson’s web site offering online courses and information.

Five Minute Movement — A series of short guided sequences emphasizing movement variety.

Ageism Unmasked — Tracy Gendron’s book exploring the deep roots and effects of ageism.

This Chair Rocks — Ashton Applewhite’s book offering another perspective on ageism and cultural narratives about aging.

Road Scholar — A nonprofit focused on travel and education for older adults.

(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)

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Translating

Stany Foucher recently wrote a book, Art du Déplacement: Au delà du saut. I’ve been working on translating it for my own reading. I can read the French language at an “advanced beginner” level. From the epub version of the book (which I printed so I can write on it), I’m working in a notebook… writing things out longhand is part of the learning process. I don’t simply want to read this book, but rather I want to apprehend this book.

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Exploring

It’s been six years since I started recording conversations for Movers Mindset. I’ve finally (after talking about it for years) gotten around to creating a Movers Mindset daily email of bite-sized things from all the 150+ podcast episodes. I have an enormous pile of episode summaries, quotes from the guests, their answers to the 3-word-questions, a few articles, choice bits from transcripts…

There’s a signup form over on Movers Mindset‘s web site.

Fun, inspiring, and educational, the daily email makes it easy to explore Movers Mindset. It also includes a notification about new episodes, which is handy if you don’t want to subscribe, but still want to know who’s on the show so you can grab just the episodes that interest you.

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Risk

Risk gives you choice, and it gives you opportunity to explore and challenge yourself. Risk is a choice, and you have to learn how to negotiate acceptable and unacceptable risks in our lives. Play is a very safe space to learn how to do that.

~ Caitlin Pontrella

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I keep trying to rearrange my efforts so I can spend more time re-experiencing the hundreds of terrific conversations I’ve experienced. Every single time I manage to find time to go back in, I find something wonderful. That quote is from episode 4 of the Movers Mindset podcast—it wasn’t even called that back then. It was a wonderful, chaotic, ramble of a conversation long before I realized the magic of conversation.

I keep thinking: Have great conversations and get them recorded. Get those conversations recorded so they can be heard by others is the most important part. I have a million other ideas about how to extract meaning, share the best parts, find threads and themes that run across large scales of people and times and …

My hope is that if I simply keep having great conversations, everything else will take care of itself.

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Disparate stories

The story that you tell people is the story that they’ll believe. And that’s the story that you become. And so for Parkour, we have a bunch of disparate stories that are being told right now, where you have people that are doing their own things… I just think that it’s important that the people who are doing so are taking responsibility for their impact that they have on the global community and the way that Parkour is being viewed.

~ Max Henry

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The story we tell

The story that you tell people is the story that they’ll believe. And that’s the story that you become. And so for Parkour, we have a bunch of disparate stories that are being told right now, where you have people that are doing their own things… I just think that it’s important that the people who are doing so are taking responsibility for their impact that they have on the global community and the way that Parkour is being viewed.

~ Max Henry

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Really! I wasn’t kidding the other day when I mentioned episode 4 This one is from episode 5.

Recently I published episode 129 of Movers Mindset. And there are 95 episodes of conversations with podcasters for the Podcaster Community’s show. And 38 episodes that I did for Art of Retreat’s SPARKs podcast. Okay, I’m panicking a little now. There are so many amazing things that people have shared!

Know anyone who wants to help me by working as an “archivist” or “research fellow” or something like that? …please forward!

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Inconsistent yet persistent

TK is an all-around mover, a dancer, rock climber, traceusse and earned her degree in athletic training. In addition to her movement practices, TK is a certified authentic Tantra instructor, teaching holistic healing of body, mind, spirit and sex. TK considers herself a sex activist and is the founder of LoveCraft, a sexual coaching and empowerment collective.

Tantra was the obvious place to begin since we were surely going to end up talking about tantric sex. My fear was that most people’s—myself included—knowledge of Tantra would be something to do with the artist, Sting. We immediately agreed that leaving the world only knowing about “men in linen pants” would be a disservice. “Tantra means, literally, to weave light and sound with form, the light being visualizations of your chakras in your body, sound being chants that you’re making, and then the form being your body, your physical body. That’s it, in a nutshell. The way that often looks is meditating. The way a lot of people do that is they’ll meditate and then have sex; they’ll meditate during sex; they’ll meditate on their own without any sex. Yeah, that’s kind of that, which means nothing, right? It’s like a, ‘Cool, and then what?’ which is what got me into having a coach.” — ~ TK from, ~4’40”

But, what drew TK to Tantra, and how does she use Tantra as part of her work with others?

TK: In the introduction to Lovecraft Collective, we say, in addition to the movement practice, I practice Tantra, as well. And movement is inherently part of everything humans do, for the most part, so there’s a movement aspect of Tantra, as well.

I got into Tantra when I was 18 because I wasn’t having what I considered orgasms despite a pretty full sex life from a rather young age, what most people would probably consider a young age. My mom had this book called Urban Tantra by Barbara Carrellas, amazing. I later learned she wrote this book during the AIDS crisis and was trying to find ways that were sexy for people to connect that wouldn’t transmit the virus, and it was like, “We don’t have time to hang out on this mountain and get enlightened, but, what’s hot? What’s not, and how do we practice connection using these methods?”

That was around 18. I read some of the book and then, on and off, had partners that were more or less — mostly less — interested in practicing it with me, and, finally met someone who was like my Tantra teacher. We were playing music together and he mentioned his Tantra coach. I’m like, “Wait, there’s coaches?” I had just been reading books and trying to find drawings. I’m like, “What is here, there?” Turns out there was a coach, and I met her. She had a coaching program, and I found the website and I started crying. I was like, “This is what I want to do.” I had read this article, I guess a couple years before about how to find your passion, and the article was basically saying, “You know your passion. It’s what you think about all the time. Whether or not you get paid for it …”

I was like, “Oh, I want to help people with sex and I want to heal sex.” One of my friends when I was really young had made her sexual debut through the form of being raped, and that made me really sad for her because I was having really great sex in high school and really loving it and feeling really empowered in it. We couldn’t share that experience, so I had known then.

Then, it kind of kept popping up in all these different ways of, “Oh, now I can have orgasms. Oh, I’m not broken. Oh, how do I show other people that they’re not broken?” The way it looks now is integrated into a life where it’s not just about sex and orgasm. Although, that’s a huge driver because sexuality is a huge component of being a human, but it’s integrated into fully embodied experiences.

That’s the way that’s looked. It continues to ebb and flow and transform as I imagine it to. That’s the lifework, right?

I’m always curious to know how someone turns a passion from something they simply find themselves doing, into something organized or purposeful. Organizing one’s ideas, vision, and mission into a clear structure multiples the effect one can have on the world. What do TK’s efforts look like today?

TK: The reason why I called LoveCraft Collective… LoveCraft Collective is because I have this idea that once I teach or coach or work with somebody, that they’re a part of the collective. Not that, then, they will be able to offer services under the name, but that, if we’re bringing this healing to people, then they’re a part of the mission. I want to create more harmony and people that are embodied and loving themselves, and so, I do it for money. That makes me a professional although I feel rather amateur most of the time.

For too many people, the topics of sex, pleasure, and intimacy make for awkward conversations. But it’s my opinion that those topics shouldn’t be treated exceptionally. It’s one thing to have an intimate conversation—as TK and I had—but it’s another to figure out how to share with people, so they are then enabled to have those conversations with others.

TK: Couples are my favorite because they are with a friend, and I get to coach them through practices with each other. I also take individuals: male, female, womxn, any gender, trans, vagina owners, penis owners, whatever they call themselves.

Craig Constantine: My first reaction is, “Okay, that’s pretty progressive.” But then, I’m thinking: Well, suppose one was transgendered, or one had recently realized that you were trying to live the gender that didn’t fit who you really felt that you were. Where’s the manual for that? How do I make the transition? Being able to go talk to someone, to spend time with someone, to interact with someone, to be sexual with someone who maybe understands, “Oh, here’s the role that you’re missing.” It seems like it’s really not just about sex. It’s about helping them understand who they are or could be?

TK: Yeah, and just about being embodied like, “Here, sit with this and develop a pleasure practice.” I don’t know if you’re intending this, but I don’t ever claim to know left or right, female or masculine or anything like that. Tantra is about balancing those energies. However they show up for people is how they show up for people, but I just think it’s important to … we call it yoni massage and Lingam massage. I still like the word pussy. Nothing is sacred; everything is sacred.

I find the more interested I become in conversation, the more interested I become with etymology. Initially, we each simply use language as we attempt to convey our ideas to others. Some people get good at that. But some people experiment with language, and then go farther to use language very intentionally. TK struck me as such a person.

Craig: There are certain words in English that have a visceral energy to them, and that, if the word is overused, then it would lose that. But, being able to trot a word out intentionally— “I really mean to convey this energy to this other person.”

TK: Totally, yeah. And, vagina means sheath for a sword, which is very male-centric, whereas yoni means sacred space. Some people are really drawn to that language. I’m a real straight shooter. I love the idea of Tantra and buddhism that it stems from. And the lineage, the Shangpa Kagyu lineage that authentic Tantra taught me from. And I’m into kink and I’m into BDSM, and I enjoy the whole range of — is it phenomenological — what’s actually happening here and now, and our brains doing things. Metabolites are happening. Neurons are firing. You can call it energy. As woo-woo as you like, however you want to go.

Craig: Energy can just be a shorthand for all this stuff we discovered, actually makes it real.

TK: Speaking of working with people of all different gender identities, the idea is really to work with people to develop a pleasure practice because our lives are so full of shit, all of us. The human experience is this shitty ball of burning gas and also this beautiful sunset.

I like the blueberry analogy: If you’re eating a bowl of blueberries, they’re next to you and you’re not looking at them. And you’re going: blueberries in your mouth, blueberries in your mouth. All of a sudden, you pick a roach up and you put it in your mouth. Next time you go to the blueberry bowl, you’re like, “Holy fuck, I don’t know what it’s going to be!” There might only be one roach in the whole bowl, but what does your brain go to every time now when you think blueberries? It’s terrifying.

That’s kind of the way we treat all our negative experiences. The idea of Tantra, in the weaving light and sound with form, is to develop this blissful counterbalance.

The glorious sunset we were experiencing as we were recording, led me to take a detour to movie-land. Such detours happen a lot, if you have a long conversation with me. But the dance of distraction, humor, delight and serendipity is always worth the effort. That’s a major part of what makes us Human. We joking started discussing magic powers, before I got specific and asked what her friends would say her super-power is. “I guess if I were to list the thing that I like the most about myself: I bring a sort of comfort to the room as being rather authentically expressed and unafraid to share things about myself that I hope inspires other people to do the same thing, and I consider that a societal superpower.” — ~ TK from, ~18′

When recording conversations for podcasts, there’s a balance to be searched for: How much of oneself should be present? If there’s too little of me—if I’m too quiet, if I don’t share stories and be vulnerable—then the guest is left hung-out on the stage with a spot light on them. On the other hand, if there’s too much of me— well, then you get what we have here in the recording with TK. I broke into a series of stories as TK and I played with the conversation. If you want to get that experience, you’ll have to go listen.

Here, I’m going to try to present the stories that TK shared. Just remember that there’s a lot that’s been edited out in the following stories which came from TK generously rolling with what I was interjecting. I’ve added […] where I’ve made large elisions.

Craig: What’s the most interesting story that comes to mind when I ask you about eye contact?

TK: I was at what I jokingly and lovingly call Tantra Camp, which was our first retreat while I was in the authentic Tantra certification program, and I was meditating with my teacher. We were practicing this thing called microcosmic orbit, and I get lost. Some people call it the void, but it just felt like swirling dark colors making eye contact with this person kind of in this forever place of being and being okay both simultaneously of like, everything is perfect and everything is right and I am right here and you are there, but also, where are we? What’s even happening? And, beyond the story, my theory around it is that human beings experience themselves through experiencing others relativity. Thanks, Einstein, or maybe Einstein’s late wife … unclear who actually … women rolling their eyes.

[…]

And so, there’s something kind of magical that happens when you … we’re making eye contact right now, and it’s kind of silly, but if we allowed ourselves to continue to make eye contact-

Craig: Well, yeah, there’s definitely an awkward zone here, people. We’re now at about six or seven seconds and it’s like, “I really need to look away, now.”

TK: Right, right, right, and like, why is that?

Craig: Well, because eye contact is extremely intimate, like the old … The metaphor of the eyes being windows to the soul— I think that … humans are really good at detecting eye contact.

[…]

TK: It continues to be all about eye contact in my experience.

Craig: Anyway, off on a tangent, Craig. Eye contact: so, I think that because we are so good at detecting eye contact, and compared to other senses, we’re not nearly as sensitive. Even just eye contact is a thing. So, when you spot that eye contact, it’s inherently electrifying in your deep brain. So, I don’t know, that’s just, how could you ignore a sense that was that hooked up?

TK: Totally.

[…]

TK: That actually reminds me of a different story about eye contact. This weekend, I was at the Folsom Street Fair down in San Francisco, and there’s a lot of leather, sex and kinky activities and people doing them in public and people watching. There was a moment I was partaking in a scene with someone and I looked up and made eye contact with somebody else in the crowd and immediately lightened the mood. It was like I was in this kind of intense space and feeling somewhat humiliated, which is fine, because that’s what we go for, sometimes. That’s okay.

And, they looked at me and they kind of giggled. And then, all of a sudden, it was this goofy not-so-serious thing that was happening, anymore. They saw through what I might have been experiencing as shame and it became: when I’m being seen in something that I think is shameful and this person isn’t turning away but is celebrating it and enjoying it, it allows me to then fall into more of a, “Oh, this is okay.” And, I think that being seen by people creates a lot of that for-

Our conversation danced over a number of topics as TK and I simply followed whatever thoughts bubbled up. We flirted briefly with discussing radical honesty as it feels nearby to eye contact and intimacy.

Craig: I was just talking to someone who was talking about radical honesty. What would happen if, when someone asked you for money on the street, instead of saying, “Sorry,” and moving on— What if you said, “I’m choosing not to give you money.” What would you have to do to be able to be that radically honest to them. That might be the right thing to say to them. They might be like, “Well, thank you for being honest.” I don’t know. I’ve never tried that.

Maybe part of what is uncomfortable about the interaction with somebody who asks you something, which would really be a small task for you to do, is you literally don’t want to see them. You’re like, “I don’t want to be seen by you, so I’m going to turn my head and say I’m sorry.” I’m not suggesting everybody give every dollar they have to every person who asks…

TK: …but, sometimes, it’s just about making eye contact with them and saying, “Hey, I see that you’re living on the street. You’re not totally invisible to me. I don’t think giving you money will solve the problem, but also, I see you as a human.”

“That’s one of the other things inside of Tantra, inside of movement, inside of … right, why do we go move our bodies? Why do we sit with our bodies? Why do we intentionally breathe? And, so much of it comes down to stress relief, relief from — I’m looking around the room — all this shit.” — ~ TK from, ~28’30”

Mindful of the time, it occurred to me to return to the main avenue of our conversation. We’d had a terrific conversation exploring Tantra and intimacy, and I thought we might next turn to talking about movement. TK, ever the good sport, started to follow that lead, before I interrupted here to launch us into a huge nerd-gasm about rock climbing. She got exactly this far:

Craig: This is nice. Have a bite of chocolate while I look at the time. We haven’t really touched your movement background. I’m not sure if you think, at this point, that would rise to a level of even being interesting, but if you do, we could talk about maybe how you got into Parkour and what your thoughts are on that.

TK: Parkour is a shorter story than my movement practice in general. I had been interested in parkour for a while and was really scared to go into Parkour Visions. Then, by the time I looked it up, I saw that the gym had closed, unfortunately. And then, I am a climber. I’ve been climbing for … God, that’s a hard thing to say, I’m a climber.

Craig: Oh my God, I fancy myself a climber…

…and then followed a long segment with me geeking out about climbing. TK was super into it, but I think she was mostly having fun watching me geek out about climbing. It became a two person show with her adding color, jokes, and little digs. Super fun—I thought anyway—but not something that makes much sense in a written transcript.

But some of our exchanges gave a sublime insight into TK’s style and sense of humor. This section in particular, conveys the warmth and playfulness of an intimate conversation with TK:

TK: Well, I climb at Index, Washington, which, don’t publish that because nobody go there; it’s horrible. It sucks. Don’t go. Index sucks, now.

Craig: Why does it suck?

TK: …so that people don’t go, mostly.

Craig: Oh, okay. So, basically, gear blows out. It’s all sandstone.

TK: It’s just choss. It’s horrible. The rock falls apart in your hands.

This summer, I went out to Washington Pass, which isn’t far from here, a bunch of alpine climbing with my sweetie. We did the South Arete of South Early Winters Spire. It’s a 5.6. It’s super mellow. We pitched out the first couple pitches and then just soloed the rest, and it was such a good time, just movement over rocks. I don’t tell people I solo often because they usually say-

Craig: …people freak out…

TK: Like Alex Honnold. Yeah, “Climbing without a rope?”

Craig: Like that?

TK: Yes, free solo.

Craig: …exactly like that?

TK: Not at all like that. It’s mostly scrambling over pretty chill rocks, but you don’t have to deal with the rope and all the gear. I brought up climbing because I was talking about my movement practice. I’ve been climbing for four-and-a-half years. I said I was a climber and then I got sheepish because, like it’s hard for me to say I’m a singer, I also still have imposter syndrome about climbing.

Eventually, I stopped talking long enough for her to get to her climbing origins.

TK: When I first got taken out climbing, I didn’t realize that the people I was climbing with were very, very strong climbers because, as a total Gumby, right, you just don’t know what’s going on. They’re telling you to do these things and you’re like, “This is normal,” because you don’t know any better. Within my first year of climbing, I was climbing trad with folks, mostly following. I was climbing at an ability level that I could do on top rope that I still have a hard time leading.

This year, I was putting the ego aside and really wanting to do the thing, to know that I could do the thing. A lot of 5.8 and 5.7 and 5.9 and a lot of crying and being scared and allowing that to happen. Inside of dating somebody, I was surprised how many emotions came out in ways that didn’t when I climb with other people because it’s a whole ‘nother level of being vulnerable and intimate with somebody.

Large scale, outdoor rock climbing is spectacular and can be—it should be, but sometimes things go sideways—a wonderful experience. I’ve found rock climbers earlier in their journey start to pick apart the different aspects of climbing as they learn what calls most to them. Some pursue the huge, heady experiences outdoors, and some look inward searching for small problems that they can learn through solving. There’s a type of climbing called bouldering, named for climbing on boulders. Done generally low to the ground so that falling off is low consequence, it brings the same mental aspect as with the large scale challenges of other types of outdoor climbing. But since bouldering is done without any safety equipment, (often with just a small crash pad tossed on the ground below the climber,) reality and danger can set in very quickly.

Our conversation about outdoor, large-scale climbing transitioned to small-scale, but very mental, bouldering:

TK: And bouldering — you mentioned bouldering earlier — I feel like is the most similar to parkour in the realm of the fear about falling off of stuff and the zero margin for error at a certain point, at a certain height.

It’s a totally different story. I don’t like bouldering outside so much because of that, and it’s been a heady thing for me to develop. It hasn’t been something that I’ve been that interested in, partially because the go game, and I see some people that are really good at capturing that mind space, doing these big descents. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful, and I have done my best this year, too, as being on the sharp end of just trying to enjoy the movement, just wanting to enjoy moving on rocks. I mentioned kink, earlier. I think rock climbing fits in some of the same realms of masochism of, “I’m going to jam my hand in this crack and I’m going to crank on it and it’s going to fuckin’ hurt, and then I’m going to cram a crank on and stick my other hand in this crack, and then I’m going to shove my ankle in there and twist on it and stand up and just … I’ve done a lot of climbing shirtless and naked because I love the way my body feels on the rocks and the movements of being outdoors and-

Craig: Rocks are so tactile, yeah. There’s definitely a … I’m not going to say it’s erotic, but I guess, okay, if you want to go there.

TK: Yeah, it could be. But, feeling rock on skin, it’s like being out in nature. I know there’s this whole group of people called eco-sexuals. They really get off on being out in nature. I wouldn’t identify as an eco-sexual, I think, mostly because I have a hard time with labels, a lot of labels, but yeah, just getting your … I think men have an easier time with being shirtless in public in our world in general.

Craig: Just because of how it’s socially constructed?

TK: Yeah, but being wedged between rocks or climbing trees and feeling … I think it’s another level of Tantra, another part of Tantra […]

The guests on the Movers Mindset podcast are mostly chosen simply because I want to have a conversation with them. But some people, TK for example, are mentioned by my friends. TK’s passion for movement also includes parkour. Our shared interest in rock climbing was a surprise, but it was some parkour friends who said, “You should talk to TK.”

Here again, I had the distinct pleasure of being led by the guest to the next interesting thread.

TK: I got into parkour because I met Caitlin Pontrella at Seattle Bouldering Project. That’s the answer to that question.

Craig: Okay, honestly, you’re really good at pulling us all the way back to there.

TK: Thank you.

We were hanging out at the bar in West Wall Café [ed. inside the Seattle Bouldering Project’s facility], and a friend was like, “You should meet this person. She’s really cool.” We became friends, and then I met Brandee Laird. What was really cool, I think, about developing those friendships, is that I didn’t know who they were in the parkour community, and they said, “Come out and play with us.”

Just like my climbing experience, I started climbing with these people that were developing at Index and climbing really fucking hard, like 5.12+ climbers, and I just didn’t realize because how would I know? It wasn’t until … I think it was Art of Retreat maybe by the time that Brandi was teaching at American Rendezvous or something, and I saw some internet stuff and I was like, “Holy shit, this person is a very respected, well-known, world-renowned coach, and she’s my friend and I know her as a friend before coach.” I think if I had stepped into [Parkour Visions] before that, our relationships would have been different, which is just an aside about friendships and how they develop and what you know about people or what you think you know about people and the way we treat folks that are at certain levels of pedestal or no pedestal or-

Just to be sure the level of respect she’s conveying for Caitlin and Brandee is clear, I’ll unpack her climbing jargon: “developing at Index” — Index is a place to rock climb, which we discussed it earlier. “like 5.12+ climbers” — that’s world-class level climbing, few ever achieve 5.13.

TK: That was really cool, seeing that side of people that I had become to know as friends and not as coaches, but as peers. Now, I do parkour, and I see the world very, very differently in terms of what I can play on or how I can … I think parkour changed my life in the greatest way.

I have two nieces and a nephew. My niece last year had bacterial meningitis. I know she almost died at three weeks old … five weeks old? Three or five weeks old. And, I went down after she got out of the hospital. My sister had to go back for some followup appointment, and my sister left me outside of the hospital in the parking lot with a four-and-a-half-year-old and a three-year-old and I was like, “Oh, fuck.” We were talking about kids earlier and I was like, “Shit, I don’t know what to do with these. How am I supposed to entertain the little people in a fucking parking lot?”

Craig: I think if you stand on them, then they don’t run away…

TK: And, that would have been my answer, before, but I had just been learning about parkour, and there were rails and there were benches, and I was like, “Okay, it’s superhero practice time. Do y’all want to be ninjas or what?” I was able to Auntie TK my way into entertaining them for almost as long as it took for my sister to come back outside, almost an hour.

Craig: And now, of course, she hates you because her kids want to know where they can go learn parkour. Way to go, TK.

TK: Oh, no. And, I think that’s some of the magic of parkour and movement and changing the mindset.

From parkour, our discussion meandered touching on the intimacy of audio with headphones on, audio exhibitionists and conversations, free-styling vocal improv…

Craig: I always like to say I turn my ADD into Art du Déplacement— my Attention Deficit Disorder into Art du Déplacement. I wasn’t diagnosed as a kid, because I’m old enough to be before they invented the cool thing— what is it, the DSM thing. We were probably on DSM [version] negative 2 at that time.

TK: I have a thing about that.

Craig: Go ahead, go. Go, go, go.

TK: Well, just coping mechanisms. We talk about the DSM and that it’s disorder, disorder, disorder, disorder. It’s a potentially useful discourse, I suppose, for talking about a wide array of symptoms that people maybe share. Like all the people that have, air quote, “ADD,” share this kind of, “This happens in my brain when I’m doing this X thing.” But it’s potentially just a coping mechanism you developed when you were young to survive in the world.

My personal experience, the coping mechanisms that I’ve developed that people maybe have names for in the DSM is more about discovering the awareness of, and not being a victim to. So, when I turn disorder into coping mechanism, I am able then to have agency and power around it. So, you were talking about your hand thing. You turned your ADD into ADD, and that’s your power. That’s your art, yeah.

I’m continuously fascinated by the unique aspects of experiencing conversations in audio-only. I regularly find I’m drawing my guests down this side street.

Craig: People who are listening with headphones, you get a certain kind of experience. I’m hoping if you’re listening on headphones, you’ve noticed that podcasts in general suck you in, and it’s because, I think that your ears work … because they’re connected to an older part of your brain, so when you hear something, it draws your attention, and when you hear people talk to you and they’re in your ears as opposed to hearing it across the room, it’s like you can’t help but be drawn to that.

So, I think part of my the reason why podcasting works so sell is that humans are really fixated, are really interested in audio. There’s one experience, people who are listening. And then, there’s another experience for people who are listening to each other and making awkward eye contact again.

TK: It’s only awkward if you make it that way.

Craig: I think you would kill me in a staring contest every time. Please, I’m just going to close my eyes, now. I’m not challenging you to a staring contest. But, there’s something about …

[…]

If we were any closer together, it would be awkward. So, the headphones bring us closer together. You are literally in my head and I’m literally-

Here we drifted off into having more fun. My interest in any particular topic, doesn’t necessarily mean I can stay on that topic for long. But as I’d learned, give TK enough time and space and she’ll bring us back. We drifted back to talking about headphones and then about creating spaces.

TK: I think it’s similar to the way I feel bed is sacred space, being in bed with somebody else. I guess I call it pillow talk, and it sounds so cliché to me, but having this space with someone else like I wake up in the morning and, “Let’s share some coffee together,” and then it’s kind of talk and giggle and be silly and, “Please pet my head and we’ll feel really close in this way that, once we’re out of bed, we don’t feel this way anymore because it’s time to go back to real life and I have to go to work, now, and you’re going to go do this thing.” I think that creating space … headphones create a space.

Craig: Yeah, a new space. It actually takes away a lot of space and creates…

TK: Right, totally arranges a bubble in the same way that maybe a bed arranges a bubble, or, if you’re meditating with somebody and you’re making this eye contact with them, you’re arranging this bubble, right, of, “It’s just me and you and we’re right here and the outside world can get kind of squirrelly and you’re not focused on it.”

[…]

There’s the four-minute thing. It was a questionnaire. It was 36 Questions to Make Anyone Fall In Love. I don’t know if you saw that. It was going around the internet for a while. I did the questions with somebody. We dated for three months.

Craig: It’s total BS.

TK: Sure. I mean, they were great and I love them, but it wasn’t going to last. Then, there’s a four minutes of eye contact thing you’re supposed to do at the end of it, and I think, fuck all the questions. Maybe it’s just the eye contact.

Craig: Just four minutes of eye contact, right.

TK: We were doing it via video chat, but, maybe it’s just about sitting down with someone and being seen. I find eye contact, to go back to eye contact, as … you know you’re talking to somebody and they’re kind of looking all around and they won’t look at you or settle down and they seem highly anxious and you’re just like, “Whoa, can you chill and be here with me? It’s okay. I’m safe.”

And, a lot of that, I know, comes from trauma, so that’s not to dis anybody who has a hard time making eye contact with people, because I can also understand that neuro-atypical people … eye contact can actually feel physically painful. To the degree that eye contact creates connection for neuro-typical people, it can create disconnection for atypical people.

So, that’s something, when I first started practicing Tantra, I came across this article written by a woman who was autistic. And I was very, very grateful for finding it because I was like, “Eye contact,” right, just fresh out the gate. I’m like, “Eye contact is a thing.” And then, you can’t just stare … that’s why you’re like, “You’re staring at me.” I’m like, “Wait, no, I’m actually seeing you and trying to be here with you,” and I try to make a distinction, there because I have played from the ego place before of, “I’m big and strong and, yeah, you’re going to look away from me,” and that’s not a place of compassion and connection. So, having played in the realm of darkness, as you called it earlier, I think it’s an important distinction to make.

By this point, we were well over an hour into our conversation. The sun had set, and the room had grown dark leaving us with just a single light over our table. The energy of the entire conversation had been very different from others, and apparently I wanted to be sure that was recognized as a good thing.

Craig: Maybe, this is like, every hundred episodes or so we have to do one [of] these [to] blow-off-steam. I know this is weird.

TK: That’s good. Are we blowing off steam, right now?

Craig: I may be. So, I came from Art of Retreat before this, and I did something like 24, 45-minute interviews in two days.

TK: Whoa.

Craig: Whoa, that may have been a mistake.

[…]

It was good because it’s really … it forces me to hone my skills to be able to read [people] as fast as I can and figure out whether they want to talk about it. And, there’re different kinds of interviews. Maybe this would be fun to unpack…

So, this interview that we’re doing, sometimes I just say I let the guest off-leash and I try to keep up. I don’t mean in a derogatory way, although maybe you would really enjoy that.

But, when we let the guest off-leash and let them run, then it’s up to me to just try and not mess up what you’re doing, and it can be really fun, but it can also go really weird like if the guest is expecting a certain role from me and then I’m just like, “Let’s go have fun,” and they’re like, “I thought you were going to ask questions.” Or, if I ask a question, it’s [too] open-ended. They’re like, “I thought you were going to give me some context.”

TK: Okay, well, off-leash, I was at Folsom this past weekend. I grew up in San Francisco and left when I was 17. Growing up with such an open, I mean, really gay environment, topless people in parades waving at me from a young age and seeing my teachers in elementary school were gay and married couples and it was just part of life. It wasn’t something I thought so much about until I moved to Montana where people were meeting their first gay person in college.

So, coming back to Folsom as an adult, my first time going to the fair as an adult and participating and being … it was almost like a homecoming where, having grown up in such an open place, I took it for granted, and then have been out in the world in different places and kind of forgot. So, coming back and being able to experience this whole thing that feels like it’s been an inherent part of me for so long that yet maybe hasn’t been expressed to its full capacity as I had appreciate was really, really cool.

And, what I find really interesting about … so I performed at something called Twisted Windows, which is put on by a lovely person named Shay Tiziano, and it is a subversive performance art on Friday night. It’s all night long. There’s bondage performances and… wow, a plethora. There’s someone on trapeze and just all kinds of cool shit, people self-suspending and puppy play. That’s where people dress up like pups and play with stuffed animals and bark at each other. It’s fucking the cutest thing. It’s just great. Yeah, yeah. Two thoughts: the performance we did, I was holding something heavy over my head for half an hour while taking on a lot of impact, whips, heavy floggers, bites, this whole realm of sexual-

Craig: Things that would make you want to use your arms to defend yourself, right?

TK: Right, and, well, by choice as a sensual experience. I am a masochist. I think that climbing plays into that very well. And, holding something heavy overhead for half an hour straight is really intense.

Craig: Just that.

TK: Yeah, right, just like, can you imagine holding 20 pounds over your head for half an hour? I was just pouring sweat. So, meditation and Tantra bring on this space of presence and can get you really high, especially and more so, generally, in my experience, with somebody else. And, what I’ve found really cool about kink and why I’m open to talking about it here, I have this idea that Tantra is supposed to be spiritual and it’s serious, and it’s the right way to do things. Then, having some more experience in kink and realizing that there’s this level of connection and negotiation and all these things that need to be present, trust, in order to let somebody, to ask somebody to please hit you-

Craig: Yeah, play this role.

TK: Yeah. And then, they’re trusting you that you really want that and that they’re not hurting you, and that they’re doing something that might be seen from the outside as awful is a beautiful expression of something that I had been experiencing inside of Tantra. And then, I brought up Barbara Carrellas, earlier. She talks about that inside of Urban Tantra. I think some people call it dark Tantra where they interplay the two things, and the integration of that just into life.

It’s not just like, “I’m going to sit here and meditate and breathe.” It’s like, “I’m going to hold this heavy weight over my head and meditate and breathe and get into this space while getting hit,” and that can also bring me to this level of heightened … but, there’s something about the movement. That’s why I want to talk about it. I’m watching this person move around me. I’m unable to move. What happens when I shift my weight to this side or I get hit here versus there, and how can I breathe and move the energy to become something that feels really good instead of, “Ow, that was sharp.” Or, you’re trying to knock me off balance. How do I reel it in to be present? It was just fascinating.

When recording conversations I sometimes find I drift up from the depth of the conversation and remember that there will eventually be people listening. I have a sudden urge to see if there’s some kernel of wisdom, or constructive take-away, that I can find with just the right question.

Craig: I’ll just close my eyes. What I was thinking was there’s something that we can, I’m going to say challenge, something that we can challenge people to think about that might help them find places or ideas or spaces where they have an unknown bias. […] I’m wondering if there are places where people might have biases that they aren’t aware of, and if there’s any thoughts you have on how to help people find those. I’m really reaching here for like an, “Ooh.” What if we went meta meta?

[…]

TK: That’s a hard one to dig up. I think so much of … here’s a great one. So, when you watch somebody … how many times have you practiced something, or you’re telling someone about what you do, and they say, “I could never do that.”

Craig: All the time.

TK: All the time. Climbing, “I could never do that.” “Oh, what do you do? I could never do that.” For some people, I don’t want to say everyone, because all movement is valuable. Sometimes, it’s a small jump and something that people that I look up to, I would think, “Oh, this is nothing and cake for them. It’s big for me.” And then, somebody else is like, “Wow, that’s amazing. I could never do that.” And, I think, “Just try it. Just go try it.”

You asked what my superpower was, earlier, and I mentioned being inspiring and wanting people to go past what they think is possible or break down barriers, and that’s why I consider myself a sex activist because I’m into the idea that sexuality is a part of everything we do, including movement. And, I find it a really interesting line that we choose to draw. We say, “Sex is this,” and it’s an incredibly transgressive idea to say, “Sex is everything,” right, because then it’s like, “Oh, I’m hanging out with my friends, and I love them. Is that sexual? Oh my God, I’m gay.” Whatever that brings up for people, it’s a huge world of triggers. I’m eating this apple or this peach and it’s so good, and it’s dripping down my face.

Craig: Sensual, right?

TK: It’s so sensual, and sensual is a bad word, right? All of a sudden, sensual is like, “Don’t.”

Craig: It describes that it has senses involved.

TK: Exactly. And then, so, what degree do we sexualize that? I don’t have answers for any of that. I just find it fascinating to ruminate on, and I think that the answer, to a degree, is to just go try it. So, BDSM or kink is a lot harder to watch than it is to partake in. To watch somebody get hit for half an hour is a lot harder than being the person getting hit for half an hour because something else is happening. And, I think in the same way that watching … I don’t know a ton of parkour athletes, but Bryan Riggins is a friend of mine, and we’ve had some conversations about performance and mindset.

Then, I’ll watch some of his stuff and I’m just like, “Holy shit, dude, how do you do that? How do you keep it together? I could never do that.” I find myself in the same space, and so it’s like, “Okay, where do I start? How do I break that down and how do I know that I feel a certain way about it until I go try and do it?” and I think that’s the best way to find your unknown biases, is to try things that interest you or try things that don’t interest you because maybe they will or maybe the thing you thought you were going to be into isn’t the thing you’re into, and that’s how you meet people that expose you to new things that will then get you to discover you had a bias.

On the other hand, sometimes one finds the right question by not trying too hard to find the right question. After some more random thinking, out loud, I arrived at:

Craig: There’s a ratchet involved that we’ve been ratcheting up the conversation to a point where it’s like, “Well, we only have a limited amount of time to do this on mic,” and I’m like, “Well, I probably have one or two more questions, so what should I ask?” I just wasted 30 seconds.

What I wanted to say first was: what’s a story that you can tell me about somebody that you admire?

TK: Wow. Whoa. My first thought is my mom, and then I’m like, “What story is there to tell?” I could even relate one to movement. My grandfather passed away in February, and my grandma and him lived together. They were married, basically married for 50 years. They lived in Edmonds, which isn’t that far north of where we are right now. And, I live here in Washington, Seattle area, and I work here. My mom came up from San Francisco, where she lives, to handle stuff. Some of her siblings came out, but were the East Coast people … we’re the West Coast [people]. West Coast, best coast. I can’t say that to you, can I? We’re the West Coast people, and so there’s all these expectations about, “Who should be taking care of things?” and all the kind of shit that happens, and you realize that we-

[…]

TK: This is an aside: I didn’t realize how dysfunctional our family was until that happened. And then, the coping mechanisms my grandfather had developed and his neuroses is evident because you’re going through all their shit because they no longer can.

My mom came in and, at first, wanted all this help because it’s hard to be the person to take things on. But then, at a certain point, when you know that you’re the one that’s going to be doing it and you seem to have the way figured out and it’s just too much anxiety for anyone else to help out, then she just stepped into this role. We moved my grandma down to Sacramento. She’s in assisted living, now. She broke her ankle earlier this week.

Craig: wow…

TK: I know. There’s just shit on shit, but my mom has been … she’s the one. She stepped into the role and has put her life … she’s not serving on my grandma hand and foot, and she’s going up to check on her at the expense of her own movement practice. That really was like when my mom was in Edmonds emptying out the condo and going through 50 years of photos, all this stuff that life puts on people.

I’m like, “Ma, I got to go to the gym. I’m not helping you with this, I got to go climb or I got to go work out.” I got to go move or I go crazy because I need … my movement practice is whatever. I’ll go dance at the gym or I’ll go twerk. Whatever I need to shake the shit out of my body, and she didn’t have that ability. She had a timeline. She had to get the thing done, and I admire the shit out of her for it for putting her mother’s wellbeing in her hands and choosing to be that rock for her. I think it’s incredibly admirable. Love you, mom.

Craig: Thank you for sharing.

And sometimes my conversation partners do all of the work themselves:

TK: Oh, you commented on everything is sexual, now, and I had a bit about that. Do you remember saying that?

Craig: I do remember saying that.

TK: Cool, I couldn’t tell from your eyes.

Craig: I’m wondering whether I should be regretting saying that, but go ahead.

TK: I don’t think so. I’m poly. Do you know what that means?

Craig: No.

TK: I date more than one person at a time.

There’s a lot of ideas I have that I think, to a degree, are dangerous because ideas can be really dangerous. I think if we were all just more open about everything being sexual all the time.

I think that, in schools, we need a consent and boundaries class of how to set … and, I think that’s part of what parkour and mixed martial arts teaches people. I used to box, right, of tapping out, or, “This is my limit.” I think if we equipped people with the ability to say, “You know what, it’s this point I’m going to remove myself from the room,” or, “Please don’t say that to me, again,” or, “I really don’t appreciate that kind of language in X, Y context.”

I realize it’s a big, complicated world and it’s not as easy to just say, “Yeah, give people the tools and they’ll use them,” but, I think for the most part if we’re able to just talk about it and say … yeah, I fall in love with my friends. This is personal. I fall in love with my friends all the time, and, being poly, it’s kind of problematic. You’re like, “Wait, I could actually date all of you. I mean, you don’t necessarily want to date me, but like, that’s part of my personal way of living.”

Because love is so big, and when I’ve had conversations with people that are like, “Hey, I’m attracted to you. I don’t necessarily want to date you. I just kind of need to get this off my chest because it would make hanging out with you easier for me to just share with you this.” It’s like intimacy and vulnerability of, “I have this thing happening that every time I see you, these chemicals are going on in my body,” and if I don’t address it as a disorder, and it’s just like, “This is what arises in this context, and now let’s deal with it.”

I think if we were all equipped with a little bit more of that, however we would learn that — I’m not entirely sure how we would spread that to the people — I think that could go a long, long way. I think that’s interesting.

The end of every conversation is bitter-sweet. There’s always the moment, in any conversation, when we know it’s time to drift toward the door; Things are as good as they’re going to get. But the moment is more jarring when recording. At some point, we have to stop. At some point, I have to take the lead and say, “thank you, that was awesome.”

Craig: I don’t know if you’ve listened to the podcast at all, but there’s this thing that I always ask at the end.

TK: Is it about a word?

Craig: It’s about three words.

TK: Three words…

Craig: So, I’ll just throw it at you and see what you do with it. It’s…

And of course, the final question: three words to describe your practice.

TK: Inconsistent yet persistent.

Craig: That’s a terrific answer.

Well, thank you very much, TK. It has been … to say it’s been a pleasure is not quite the right … it’s been pleasurable and fun and energizing and exhausting. I mean, exhausting is good.

TK: Thanks.

Craig: It’s been a wild ride, a fun ride, a very different chance to get to talk to someone who challenges me and pushes me in different ways during an interview. Thank you for that. It’s been a pleasure.

TK: Thanks so much for having me.

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This written-to-be-read article is based on a transcript, my recollection and my opinions. Any mistakes or mis-representations are my own—but I’d love to have them pointed out so I can correct them. All of the quotations here are edited lightly for readability and clarity. Delivering insight in realtime, while being recorded in a single take is difficult, so I’ve edited only with the intention of highlighting the awesome parts.

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Tetris

As I mentioned last week, I was recently on a rather long road trip doing some recording for the Movers Mindset project. I took a lot of stuff on the trip, but here’s the two bags which comprised the complete podcast setup—everything I need to press record is in these two bags. The rectangular bag is a proper, no-cheating, most-stingy-airline carry-on size.

And here’s what’s inside: Two full-size (albeit lightweight) mic stands, 2 sets of full-size headphones, and 3 containers of all the podcast recording and listening electronics. (And it’s all battery powered to boot.)

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Forced simplicity

I’ve talked previously about simplicity. In particular, the idea that imformed simplicity, following from a beginner’s mind which has moved through understanding the complexity of a topic, is the hallmark of mastery practice. But forced simplicity is an entirely different animal.

Occassionally, I really need to stretch out and tear into some hard work. This week I did 8, long-form recordings in 5 days. Driving, sometimes eating, more driving, arrive, set up, record, drive, sleep, and on and on. At night I’m trying to quickly come up with a plan for the next day; I have to be where, when? …drive time? …traffic? And before I can be comfortable I have the next day under control, I need to get to sleep. Small bits of online work need to be done here and there—

I’m literally sitting by a campfire. My Mac is wifi’d to my iPhone’s cell service. I’m uploading a 90mb audio file to Movers Mindset’s project management system, as I type this blog post.

—then it’s time to sleep. Then jump up and leap into the next day. Organize the van. Is there time to shower today? (This is a real decision, and the answer was not always, ‘yes.’) Can I do my journaling? …not this week? My usual reading? …not this week. Everything I did for 6+ days was laser focused on what happens between when I press “record” and “stop.” Arrive at the location and bring my A-game. Under- or over-caffeinated, sleepy, prepared or not, … game. on.

Forced simplicity can be brutal. But, I got the good tape.

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New work this week

I’ve been on a road trip this week recording podcasts for Movers Mindset. One thing I wanted to experiment with was trying to record “short” form podcasts for Movers Mindset while on the road. Adrienne Toumayan joined me for a recording titled, Balance.

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Faith

The first thing you need to know is that individuals have far more power than ever before in history. […] The second thing you need to know is that the only thing holding you back from becoming the kind of person who changes things is this: Lack of faith. Faith that you can do it. Faith that it’s worth doing. Faith that failure won’t destroy you.

~ Seth Godin

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I continue to enjoy the Movers Mindset project for many reasons. In recent months, I’ve been stepping back from the body of work and I keep having the same thought: I think this is really great, but I feel there should be something more useful as a result of all the work. (Useful specifically for me, I mean.) I’m convinced that there are lessons that I’ve missed, or not managed to hold onto; Insights that can only be seen from a perspective that is not within one particular conversation.

So I’ve been tinkering on creating, well, something. I don’t know what it is yet, or how to describe it either. But I have faith that it’s worth trying to create something which enables something new to be extracted from all the conversations I’ve captured.

Some days, I have far more questions than answers to share.

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Enabling possibility

I feel my title’s use of “enabling” rather than the more common [that I’ve seen] “creating” is important. (Of course, I don’t craft the titles with reckless abandon; There’d be far more, “Wordy werds” and “Completely different” type titles.) But in the past couple weeks I’ve been focused on the distinction between “to create” and “to enable.”

I’ve been sprinkling a Lonely Hearts-inspired call in a few different places as I think it’s time to bring a writer onto the Movers Mindset team. Each time I post it somewhere, it kicks off one or two conversations with someone. Each of those little conversations gives me a chance to refine how I convey my vision for this new role. (As a certain reader would say, how I convey my intention—hi Angie!)

The first thing I realized is that what I am bringing to this potential new relationship is the resources—the raw material that the team has amassed. I don’t in fact know exactly what the new person would be creating. My intention is to enable someone to create something (some things?) from that raw material. I’m not creating the possibility—it’s there already. My hope is to enable that possibility to come to fruition.

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Performing with a safety net

When recording conversations for the Movers Mindset podcast the guests know I’m not going to edit what they say to change their meaning. They know I’m bringing journalistic integrity to the conversation. (I’m not doing strict journalism, but that feature of journalism is present.) I do my best to set up the correct space (physical, emotional and mental,) so that we can co-create the best conversation possible. I’m not digging for dirt, creating tension, nor trying to create any other saccharine artifice. But that doesn’t change the fact that we are performing for an audience. The final necessary piece to facilitating a great conversation is a safety net.

Each conversation… each performance is better if we can reach just a bit farther than we might normally be comfortable doing. That’s why I bring a safety net. I very clearly give the guest a safe word which they can incant at any time to take back what they’ve said.

I don’t include the guest in the post-production process. They’re not invited to review the material, or to give additional thoughts about what to keep or what to cut. In fact, the only people who have time to do that, are wanna-be cooks, who will only mess up the soup if I let them in my kitchen. Instead, I and my team do all the post-production difficult work which is in fact our responsibility. The guest already did the really hard work of being themselves on-mic.

I do also say, “take your time— silence is free and we can easily trim out 30 seconds of you thinking before you speak.” I’ve also a few other little coaching tidbits I share to prep them for being recorded. But it’s the safety net which makes them feel comfortable trying something they might otherwise hesitate about. Part of the magic of a great conversation is how it develops organically, and without the safety net most people dial their caution up a few notches to be safe. With a safety net, most people are delighted to take a leap to see what they can do.

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Some thoughts on file organization

Within the team that creates the Movers Mindset podcast, we assign numbers to our projects. We use “R42” for our 42nd recording project, then R43, and so on. This enables us to start naming things from day one, in a way that we don’t have to change later. If you’re putting your files in a folder, what would you name it, that you could be sure wouldn’t change?

We also use our podcast’s initials on file names, “MM.” When we see files whose name contains, MM-R42… we know what it belongs too. It’s part of the Recording-42 project for Movers Mindset.

We also exclusively use people’s family names on files. So a raw WAV file from an interview is 20200423-MM-SMITH-TR1.wav … April 23, 2020 recording for Movers Mindset, of someone named “Smith”, and this is track one [a recording from one microphone.] 20200423-MM-SMITH-TR2.wav is track two, and so on. No matter where you toss that file, it’s going to make sense.

Eventually, a recording project might lead to one (or more!) episodes of our podcast. They get assigned episode numbers, EP56, EP57, etc. Then we have filenames like MM-EP57… and it’s always clear what that is.

Sometimes we have a dozen files to keep track of in a podcast episode and we end up with
20200423-MM-SMITH-TR1.wav
20200423-MM-SMITH-TR2.wav
MM-EP56-INTRO.wav (introduction recorded after interview)
MM-EP56-OUTRO.wav (outro recorded in post production)
MM-GCORD.wav (a little music ‘button’ used when joining bits of interview)
…the final episode is then MM-EP56-SMITH.mp3

Since I’ve typed this much, here’s another thing we do: We use consistently numbered folders to store the files. Every project has a folder, 2020.04.23 Bob Smith R42/EP56 — we create 2020.04.23 Bob Smith R42 in our archives when we do the raw recording, and at the very end we add the /EP56 to make it easier to find things. In side each project we create five folders 1 assets, 2 recording, 3 episode, 4 publication, and 5 social — the leading number ensure they sort in nice order in various displays. 1 contains anything the guest gives us (photos, writing) or any photos we take during recording. 2 is the raw original recordings, 3 is everything to make a podcast episode (intro, outro, whatever we have to assemble, AND the finished MP3), 4 is anything we create as part of publishing the episode (transcript, articles, highlights ) and 5 is anything that’s ok for social media and sharing. And then we have a multi-terabyte file server with a “few” files on it:

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Self-esteem box

Today, two thoughts popped into my head in rapid suggestion: “Self-esteem box,” and “I’ve never pull-quoted Movers Mindset.”

Craig: So for me it’s I know if I go for a walk that’s almost, not always, almost always enough to make it so I can go back into the cave of ugliness and get back to work kind of thing. So what are some things that will help you turn that corner, brighten you up or energize you?

Brandee: Yeah, that’s a great question, because I do get very dark moods pretty often actually, because with compassion comes the pain of caring so much about all these people and all this situation, it feels very futile a lot of times, like what can I do to change this. Yeah, I get there and I have a few tactics, I basically build protocols for myself for when I get in those moods. So one of the first things I go to is my self-esteem box.

Craig: This sounds like a good idea.

Brandee: And my self-esteem box is digital, it’s a digital self-esteem box and what I have done, is I have taken screenshots and copy/pasted and just dumped in all kinds of nice things that people have said, either to me or about me over the years.

So I have this file that is just full of gratitude and compliments and just stuff that I have had to read over and over and over in order to actually believe it. So that’s actually more like last resort is the self-esteem box. If nothing else works, open the self-esteem box, look through here.

Craig: In case of emergency, break glass, right?

Brandee: Totally. Totally. So that’s something I think everyone could and should do that. I guess I’ve never really told anyone about that. But it’s a nice thing.

Craig: I think that’s a really good tactic. People talk about doing gratitude journaling, but the gratitude journaling. I mean, I know that you know what it is, but gratitude journaling is a process which you have to execute on the spot when you feel like you’re having a bad mood. But the idea of having a self-esteem box is a clever one.

Brandee: Why, thank you.

~ Brandee Laird from 46’30”, https://moversmindset.com/72

I think these two thoughts popped into my head as the photo-frame on my wall changed. One of the smartest things I’ve ever done is set up a digital photo-frame. I email it photos of things—you know, all those digital photos you never do anything with. :)

Anyway. I love love LOVE my photo-frame. It’s chock full of hundreds of great photos. It’s not quite a self-esteem box. But it generally has the same effect. Every single time I glance at it it makes me smile.

Meanwhile, ever since I had that conversation with Brandee, (in September 2019,) I’ve been toying with the idea of creating a self-esteem box. I’m not quite sure where to put it [digitally] though; Also, I really do not need to make up yet another system for myself for organizing and storing things.

But the idea keeps calling to me.

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The process of reflection

Much of the power of the Movers Mindset podcast’s signature question, “three words to describe your practice?” comes from thinking about one’s personal understanding of the word practice. In the podcast episodes, sometimes the guest’s discussion of that understanding is a profound part of their interview. Sometimes their surgical statement of three words is its sublime culmination.

In 2019, we posed the three-words question of the project itself. This turned out to be a surprisingly fruitful exercise. We came up with three words to describe our practice, and I subsequently adopted them as the three words to describe my practice:

Discovery. Reflection. Efficacy.

If those three words describe my practice—the journey of my whole life—then what is the purpose of this web site? Why go through all this work? It’s taken me 9 years and the previous 2,499 posts to understand:

It’s a vehicle for my process of reflection.

I used to think I wrote because there was something I wanted to say. Then I thought, “I will continue to write because I have not yet said what I wanted to say”; but I know now I continue to write because I have not yet heard what I have been listening to.

~ Mary Rueflé from, Madness, Rack, and Honey

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Tension

I’ve been thinking about ways to create more opportunity for engagement among the people who are following the work of the Movers Mindset project. We’ve reached a point where we’re creating plenty of content and sharing ideas—but currently almost entirely in the broadcast direction. We’ve a considerable collection of people who are passively consuming.

Meanwhile, every time I manage to engage with someone [in this context of Movers Mindset], it’s an energizing exchange of ideas about movement, movement’s place in society, and sometimes even philosophy in general.

The whole project is intentionally aimed at people who are becoming, or already are, reflective. Such people tend to have made the growth step beyond low-value interaction and engagement and are increasingly aware of how they engage and expend their time especially online. I suppose the key is to simply engage with them one by one, until that becomes untenable for me.

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On podcasting

The short version of this story is simply: I’m simply curious. I try things. I make mistakes. I ask questions.

My podcasting journey began with the Movers Mindset project, which grew from conversations I started having as part of my personal journey rediscovering movement. Started in 2015, at first it was just a web site that shared others’ writing. But as I travelled, I kept finding myself in cool conversations until one day someone said, “you should have recorded that. I’d listen to that podcast.” Excited, but with no clue how much work it would be, I kicked off the Movers Mindset podcast at the start of 2017. For the first dozen episodes I did far too much of the work myself, until I wised up and started finding a few incredible people to share my new passion.

By this point I was devouring anything I could about interviewing. I smashed through thousands of podcast episodes in the process of wondering, “how does everyone else do it?” Podcasts, books, online courses… Everywhere I turned I found something new to work on in my own journey.

In the fall of 2018 I had about 30 interviews published on the podcast. I was getting comfortable travelling by plane, train and automobile, being invited into people’s lives to capture the Movers Mindset interviews. I was invited to the North American Art of Retreat, a Parkour leadership retreat, in the Cascade mountains outside of Seattle. There I did a series of interviews with the event’s presenters and organizers, and handed those recordings off for Art of Retreat to create their own podcast.

When 2019 rolled around, on a whim, I jumped into an Akimbo course called The Podcast Fellowship. I wanted to search for unknown-unknowns, to rethink everything I had done so far, and much about the Movers Mindset podcast changed in this period. To my surprise, I was invited back to be part of a small group of alumni who assist the coaches for the 4th, (and then the 5th, and 6th) running of the course. It’s mind-bogglingly inspiring and energizing to hang out daily with hundreds of people who share your passion. I even tried to summarize the fun of it in The Journey.

Meanwhile, the Movers Mindset episode numbers kept climbing and I’ve been branching out to interview more challenging guests; challenging for me as I’m forced to converse and discuss topics I know less and less about, but which none the less intrigue me endlessly. In the fall of 2019, this time with help from some of the Movers Mindset team, I was invited back to Art of Retreat. There, we did a second series of interviews for Art of Retreat’s podcast.

If you want to see a more up-to-date listing of what I’ve done in the podcasting space, see my Podchaser creator page.

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Big changes for 2020

For the past 5 years, I’ve been passionately working on a project called Movers Mindset. I’ve been particular about keeping it separate from “me”—in the sense that I would think, “is this idea something I want to put into Movers Mindset or on my blog?” (It sounds weird, I know—why didn’t you tell me years ago?) This led me to wind up with multiple “outlets”; this blog, public Movers Mindset web site and the Forum. As part of my continued efforts to simplify, we’ve taken down the Movers Mindset public web site.

* We didnt literally turn it off, but it’s just a static page about the project, and it powers the technology to make the podcast work. There’ll be nothing new posted there, and everything that was there will slowly appear in the Forum.

The entire Movers Mindset project grew from conversations I started having as part of my personal journey rediscovering movement. The project started late in 2015, under a different name, and it was initially simply a web site that shared others’ writing. The project grew, and in 2017 I started a companion podcast involving a team of people. In 2019 I created the Movers Mindset Forum. I’ve worked extremely hard, but none of this would have been possible without so much help from so many people.

The Movers Mindset Forum

Everything Movers Mindset does, everything we create, all the people who work on the project for fair pay—  Everything is made possible by people who value what we create and support our work by joining the Forum.

If you’re already a Forum member, thank you for your support.

If you do join the forum, you instantly gain access to everything. I hope you will consider supporting our work. To learn more, see  Welcome! Join the Movers Mindset Forum .

A note about “access to everything”: I’ve a tremendous amount of stuff to repost into the Forum. I’ll be chipping away at it, but it will take months as I work through it. If there’s something in particular you’re looking for, let me know.

Podcast

The Movers Mindset podcast is available wherever you normally listen to podcasts. Just search for movers mindset and you should be set. You can also find a listing of the podcast episodes in the Movers Mindset Forum. See the topics tagged “podcast “.

The public topics for each episode have only the show summary. Forum members can see the members-only Podcasts category where everything else is actually posted.

Thank you!

I hope you find my blog, the Forum, or the podcast interesting. Please consider sharing if you do.

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Nobody cares

Nobody cares. Do it yourself.

~ Hugh MacLeod

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This is a terrific splash of cold water. I interpret this not as a pessimistic, “people suck.” But rather, a catalyst to, “simply start.”

Nobody cares in the same way one cares about one’s own projects and ideas. Obviously nobody cares like that! But why do we—ok fine yes I’m projecting my behavior onto you… Why do we look outward for the external validation? Certainly, the real world is the ultimate arbiter of truth. (As opposed to one’s thoughts.) But no amount of external data is going to create or destroy your true passion. If you have a project that you cannot put down because you’re passionate about it to the extent that it consumes your life, then whether or not you have external validation is irrelevant.

Do the thing. Make the art. It doesn’t matter that nobody cares. Do it yourself.

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The Movers Mindset Forum

What is the Forum?

The goal of the forum is to facilitate self-improvement. In the forum we focus on movement as a mastery practice and highlight the processes of discovery and reflection. The forum provides the opportunity to interact with and learn from podcast guests, athletes, experts, and like-minded others.

https://forum.moversmindset.com/

Why the change?

We used to call it “the Movers Mindset community” site. There are some key reasons why we feel “forum” is a better word choice:

It removes confusion…

While it’s not confusing to us on the team, there was a lot of confusion from everyone else who encountered Movers Mindset. I had to really pay attention before I realized this. People heard us say, “the movers mindset community,” and they were thinking, “the collection of people who are interested in Movers Mindset.” They were thinking community as in: The skate-boarding community. The parkour community.

When we said, “join the Movers Mindset community,” people’s first instinct was that we meant for them to become  interested in Movers Mindset, follow us on Instagram, or start listening to the podcast. None of that entices people to join a for-pay, members-only thing. Oops.

The word “forum” does not carry the same context as “community”; when people hear, “the Movers Mindset Forum,” or, “join the Movers Mindset Forum,” it stands out. Even if it stands out only because they don’t know what it is, that’s better than them thinking they know what it is, and having the wrong idea.

Forums are old-school…

If by “old-school” you mean more considered, slower paced, and higher information density, then we’ll take that baggage because that’s exactly what the Movers Mindset Forum is meant to be. The work before us now is marketing the forum as interesting and useful, rather than a dusty old forum not worthy of attention. We think by stating a clear goal for the Forum and by stating what the Forum provides people, that it creates a meaningful opportunity that people will consider.

It’s simply shorter…

I know this seems trivial, but it adds up over time. “Forum” is just that much shorter to have to include in URLs, and it’s two syllables shorter to say.

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Is movement an integral part of my life?

It certainly is an integral part of life, in general. But the vast majority of my life does not involve movement. I probably move more than the average American my age. I certainly moved a lot more in my 20s when I had a job that involved doing things. (Make this, move that, go over there, etc.) But today, movement is something that—I don’t quite have to make time for it, but I definitely have to be mindful of it. I generally plan to do something every day. Usually that’s a multi-mile walk, a leisurely bike ride, an hour wrestling with firewood, etc..

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Telling the story better

The Movers Mindset project is challenging for me. I have a large number of pieces in place. I’ve discovered many different interesting questions to explore, and I’m well on my way to digging in to find some answers. I’ve created something which I wish I could have found many years ago, early on in my journey.

And yet, I haven’t found many people who see value in the project. Everyone likes the podcast, but that’s as far as I can seem to get the idea to go.

Here’s what I have so far…

Movers Mindset explores themes like independence, self-direction, and human excellence through podcasts, website content, and a community of like-minded people. In the podcast, I interview movement enthusiasts to find out who they are, what they do, and why they do it; The podcast focuses on the journey of self-improvement and its underlying motivations, as well as movement’s fundamental place in society. On the website we publish free content, (much of it in three languages,) including podcast transcripts, show notes, articles submitted by people, and original content. In the Movers Mindset community I’m looking to discuss everything related to independence, self-direction and human excellence; I’ve started discussions on how to make the Internet work for you, thoughts about social networks, questions and answers about training from athletes, podcast-guest followups, and more.

Feedback on the project has been overwhelming positive. Over the past four years I’ve slowly expanded the project. I’ve changed things along the way, giving the project a new name back in 2018 and recently breaking the podcast episodes into seasons.

How do I do a better job of telling the Movers Mindset story?

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§16 – Don’t be that guy

Serendipity.

I’ve been working on writing these thoughts for over three years. Without actually checking, I think it was the Fall of 2015 when I sat in Le Jardin Joan d’Arc and read my copy of Thibault’s book in one, all-day sitting. Almost 4 years ago?

I created this particular blank note for Chapter 16 in May of 2016. “16”?

As I’m writing, it is May of 2019. Another, “May”?

About three years ago I started the project which eventually became Movers Mindset. Two years ago the project grew to include a podcast.

This morning, I feel compelled to “finally” get around to writing something for Chapter 16. I open my digital copy, flip to Chapter 16, and I read, “Chris ‘Blane’ Rowat once wrote…”

Care to guess who I am interviewing for the podcast today? Yes, really.

This is sublime.

All those threads woven together lead to this moment of realization at 8:00 in a rented London flat, 6,000km from my home.

Critically, while I’ve known for months the exact date and time of Chris’ interview, I’ve not read Chapter 16 recently enough to have remembered that it starts with his sentiments. If I had, I’d certainly have made some complicated plan to co-publish this writing and the podcast, or something—but this serendipity would not have materialized. Energized by the jolt of adrenaline when I read Chapter 16 this morning, I now feel a renewed belief in the entire Movers Mindset project! (Which is good, because most days there’s more strenuous labor than love in the labor of love.)

But, serendipity and coincidence are bullshit.

It’s just my brain, (yours may be the same,) working its tremendous powers of pattern matching. This morning my mind found a slightly-more-interesting-than-usual pattern and screamed, (ala the old adrenal gland,) that it had found something that demanded much closer attention. I’ve been spurred to carefully read Chapter 16 about five times this morning, to mull over my thoughts, to spend an hour or so writing, and to think of all the people I want to share this story with. I was inspired to create a vision of how the interview will go, new questions have popped into my head, and I’ve thought of a specific person who I now realize I’d forgot for about two years!

I wonder: What would life be like if I simply paid closer attention?

What if—instead of needing a kick in the adrenals to be this motivated—I could begin to intentionally notice things a bit smaller than this morning’s coincidence?

What if!

…and of course, “don’t be that guy.”

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A conversation with Mandy Lam

Mandy Lam / Epsidode 27

The conversation with Mandy was the first time I tried simply recording a long conversation, which we published with almost zero editing. I had been talking to people on our team about trying this form of recording, but at some point, you just sort of have to jump in the pool.

I don’t remember where or when I first met Mandy. I don’t remember if someone said, “you should interview Mandy.” “Who?” “Mandy, over there— here, I’ll introduce you.” …or maybe we first met training. I really don’t recall. But I do recall that after a conversation we were like, yeah, let’s do an interview. At some point. Somewhere. Some when.

Then a few more conversations. Then a few stories at Gerlev, and then we were at the 3rd Évry Move event and we kept saying, “we should make time for an interview.” So after dinner one evening, we kicked our feet up in a hotel room overlooking the fountain in front of the Évry Cathedral.

…and talked for more than two hours trying to decide what to talk about in her interview. Two terrific hours of great conversation. We kept looking out from the 4th floor, with the big window swung open wide to the warm night, and thinking, “This is Évry. We’re just casually chatting about communities and life and everything… in the middle of Évry.”

…and the huge water fountain in the plaza sounding like a waterfall.

…and we really should press record soon.

“…ok, so, we’ve now been talking for 2-and-a-half hours. We should probably press record soon.”

Finally, I was like, “fuck it. ready?” and I hit record. Then we talked for another two hours. We recorded this sleep-drunk rambling conversation, and the whole time I’m thinking, “this is going to be so bad. No one will ever want to listen to this.”

Weeks later, I finally listened to it.

There’s a team of people behind the podcast and they  always want to know how each interview went. I bet you’ve heard the phrase, “like pulling a rabbit out of your hat,” used when—with a touch of panache—you manage something akin to snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

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The interviews from my perspective

This ongoing series of posts will contain my memories and thoughts from the interviews which I have been doing for the Movers Mindset podcast.

You can—obviously—listen to each interview. But in this series I want to share things about the interviews. I realized that I have begun to tell stories about the interviews, and people are fascinated by those stories as much as by the interviews themselves.

And so I want to share snapshots—imagery and ideas conveyed through storytelling—from the interviews. The podcast is about, among other things, sharing stories and for every interview I have at least one great story I want to tell.

Stories from before the interviews, or after. Or the people in the room you didn’t hear, or beautiful spaces I get to visit, or the time of day, the light, the vibe, the orgin-story of how I first met the guest, how they affected my life or my journey, …

I’m already 27 stories behind and even the most cursory romp down memory lane has brought countless stories to mind.

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