#groff — Public Fediverse posts
Live and recent posts from across the Fediverse tagged #groff, aggregated by home.social.
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On a recent system update, I was alerted to the fact that I had modified a config file(/etc/groff/man.local). Did I want to merge them? Discard them? Fuck if I knew. 😆
.\" man.local - Added 202203 kbowen
.\" Add a searchable string before each section header
.rn SH SH-orig
.de SH
.SH-orig \(sc \\$*Looking at the diff, I had no recollection of adding these lines. Fortunately for me, my past self was considerate enough to indicate their purpose. Unfortunately for me, my past self failed to credit the source for their inspiration. Bad dog!
I'd really like to read the article where I cribbed this from today.
Better a half-assed comment then no comment at all, I guess. But, still. Do better. -
On a recent system update, I was alerted to the fact that I had modified a config file(/etc/groff/man.local). Did I want to merge them? Discard them? Fuck if I knew. 😆
.\" man.local - Added 202203 kbowen
.\" Add a searchable string before each section header
.rn SH SH-orig
.de SH
.SH-orig \(sc \\$*Looking at the diff, I had no recollection of adding these lines. Fortunately for me, my past self was considerate enough to indicate their purpose. Unfortunately for me, my past self failed to credit the source for their inspiration. Bad dog!
I'd really like to read the article where I cribbed this from today.
Better a half-assed comment then no comment at all, I guess. But, still. Do better. -
On a recent system update, I was alerted to the fact that I had modified a config file(/etc/groff/man.local). Did I want to merge them? Discard them? Fuck if I knew. 😆
.\" man.local - Added 202203 kbowen
.\" Add a searchable string before each section header
.rn SH SH-orig
.de SH
.SH-orig \(sc \\$*Looking at the diff, I had no recollection of adding these lines. Fortunately for me, my past self was considerate enough to indicate their purpose. Unfortunately for me, my past self failed to credit the source for their inspiration. Bad dog!
I'd really like to read the article where I cribbed this from today.
Better a half-assed comment then no comment at all, I guess. But, still. Do better. -
On a recent system update, I was alerted to the fact that I had modified a config file(/etc/groff/man.local). Did I want to merge them? Discard them? Fuck if I knew. 😆
.\" man.local - Added 202203 kbowen
.\" Add a searchable string before each section header
.rn SH SH-orig
.de SH
.SH-orig \(sc \\$*Looking at the diff, I had no recollection of adding these lines. Fortunately for me, my past self was considerate enough to indicate their purpose. Unfortunately for me, my past self failed to credit the source for their inspiration. Bad dog!
I'd really like to read the article where I cribbed this from today.
Better a half-assed comment then no comment at all, I guess. But, still. Do better. -
On a recent system update, I was alerted to the fact that I had modified a config file(/etc/groff/man.local). Did I want to merge them? Discard them? Fuck if I knew. 😆
.\" man.local - Added 202203 kbowen
.\" Add a searchable string before each section header
.rn SH SH-orig
.de SH
.SH-orig \(sc \\$*Looking at the diff, I had no recollection of adding these lines. Fortunately for me, my past self was considerate enough to indicate their purpose. Unfortunately for me, my past self failed to credit the source for their inspiration. Bad dog!
I'd really like to read the article where I cribbed this from today.
Better a half-assed comment then no comment at all, I guess. But, still. Do better. -
lol @movq,
yes, I e.g. #groff my quarterly #Bahn complaint letters to parliament https://digitalcourage.social/@mro/116239272556653962. And my invoices. And #laptop-rental-contracts for https://mro.name/laptop. Such an elegant process with a 12MB typesetter. #permacomputing-style. -
Hi @movq,
💯 #groff is wonderful for administrative #letters: https://unix-freunde.mro.name/archiv/2025-08-18T224722-Schreibmaschine%20groff_--_www.html #permacomputing -
The Hell of it is that grotty actually supports coloured manual pages natively, and has done all along, since the 1990s. Its own manual page is actually in colour.
Debian and others have actually patched hidden flags in to turn grotty's colour and font capabilities off, about a quarter of a century ago, and they're still there.
Simply getting rid of those patched flags makes quite a difference.
https://jdebp.uk/Softwares/nosh/italics-in-manuals.html#Debian
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CW: #LaTeX, #Emacs, and #pronouns
It probably violates a lot of the usual conventions of #LaTeX #style but I can now \usepackage{catarcher} and have a quasi-nice interface to separating a character (or place, or organization) within a story from their function within it.
Yes, you are allowed to think of a feline with a bow and arrow. There may be a #ttrpg motivating some of this. Er what, the focus group hates poncy elf men? We can fix that!
\MakeNPC{protagonist}{Kragfeet}{Borhona}{f}{surname-first}
\InductNPCIntoSpecies{protagonist}{dwarf}And later in the document...
Upon \NPCpossessiveadjective{protagonist} person, \NPCfullname{protagonist} bears a letter written in the \NPCspeciesadjective{protagonist} language.
There are shorter forms of the #macros that end up boiling down to unique eyesore macros that yield fixed strings after all the #recursive expansion is said and done. At the bottom of it all is some games with \expandafter\def and \csname ... \endcsname that build up a bunch of keyed lookup tables.
The *roff equivalent (including #groff and #heirloom doctools) is more straightforward thanks to the .ds request. You could use macros in the body of the document but predefined strings fit the visual flow better.
.MakeNPC protagonist Kragfeet Borhona f surname-first
.InductNPCIntoSpecies protagonist dwarfUpon \*[paprotagonist] person, \*[fuprotagonist] bears a letter written in the \*[spadjprotagonist] language.
In either case, you refer to the character by their function within the document. And when the focus group inevitably changes their mind again, you'll only need to go to one place to change just about every reference in the document. You still must proofread everything to ensure it makes sense after the changes. (Sorry.)
Cue #bikeshedding about whose eyesore macros are less ugly.
Can I write an entire document in it? Yes. Is it worth it? It yields attractive output. Does it do so with tolerably little tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth? I don't know yet. #Emacs and #orgmode help in some ways but hinder in others. Aren't #tradeoffs fun?
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I guess I’m doing something of a competition between #Emacs #orgmode export to #LaTeX and lovingly hand-crafted #heirloom #doctools #troff (-me).
I briefly considered an export from #orgmode to #groff (-ms) via #pandoc to see if the two approaches could possibly share anything, but that may be a gulf that is not worth crossing.One of the macros I had coded up was to present something as a link to its entry in the appendix the first time it appeared on a new page, and ordinary text without link for subsequent mentions on the same page. While I’m sure there is a way to do this in the #TeX universe, I don’t know (yet) if it is considered sufficiently within the #LaTeX mindset to be worth attempting.
Building up from physical to logical to semantic markup feels more natural in #troff. Reaching down from #LaTeX into #TeX to perform computation in your document feels discouraged, doubly so when exporting from #orgmode. It is a wonderful method for planning, organizing, and ultimately creating a beautiful document from a single source file.
Different people want different things out of their typesetting systems. I’m glad to have spent some time in both the #troff and #TeX worlds.
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I guess I’m doing something of a competition between #Emacs #orgmode export to #LaTeX and lovingly hand-crafted #heirloom #doctools #troff (-me).
I briefly considered an export from #orgmode to #groff (-ms) via #pandoc to see if the two approaches could possibly share anything, but that may be a gulf that is not worth crossing.One of the macros I had coded up was to present something as a link to its entry in the appendix the first time it appeared on a new page, and ordinary text without link for subsequent mentions on the same page. While I’m sure there is a way to do this in the #TeX universe, I don’t know (yet) if it is considered sufficiently within the #LaTeX mindset to be worth attempting.
Building up from physical to logical to semantic markup feels more natural in #troff. Reaching down from #LaTeX into #TeX to perform computation in your document feels discouraged, doubly so when exporting from #orgmode. It is a wonderful method for planning, organizing, and ultimately creating a beautiful document from a single source file.
Different people want different things out of their typesetting systems. I’m glad to have spent some time in both the #troff and #TeX worlds.
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I guess I’m doing something of a competition between #Emacs #orgmode export to #LaTeX and lovingly hand-crafted #heirloom #doctools #troff (-me).
I briefly considered an export from #orgmode to #groff (-ms) via #pandoc to see if the two approaches could possibly share anything, but that may be a gulf that is not worth crossing.One of the macros I had coded up was to present something as a link to its entry in the appendix the first time it appeared on a new page, and ordinary text without link for subsequent mentions on the same page. While I’m sure there is a way to do this in the #TeX universe, I don’t know (yet) if it is considered sufficiently within the #LaTeX mindset to be worth attempting.
Building up from physical to logical to semantic markup feels more natural in #troff. Reaching down from #LaTeX into #TeX to perform computation in your document feels discouraged, doubly so when exporting from #orgmode. It is a wonderful method for planning, organizing, and ultimately creating a beautiful document from a single source file.
Different people want different things out of their typesetting systems. I’m glad to have spent some time in both the #troff and #TeX worlds.
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I guess I’m doing something of a competition between #Emacs #orgmode export to #LaTeX and lovingly hand-crafted #heirloom #doctools #troff (-me).
I briefly considered an export from #orgmode to #groff (-ms) via #pandoc to see if the two approaches could possibly share anything, but that may be a gulf that is not worth crossing.One of the macros I had coded up was to present something as a link to its entry in the appendix the first time it appeared on a new page, and ordinary text without link for subsequent mentions on the same page. While I’m sure there is a way to do this in the #TeX universe, I don’t know (yet) if it is considered sufficiently within the #LaTeX mindset to be worth attempting.
Building up from physical to logical to semantic markup feels more natural in #troff. Reaching down from #LaTeX into #TeX to perform computation in your document feels discouraged, doubly so when exporting from #orgmode. It is a wonderful method for planning, organizing, and ultimately creating a beautiful document from a single source file.
Different people want different things out of their typesetting systems. I’m glad to have spent some time in both the #troff and #TeX worlds.
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I guess I’m doing something of a competition between #Emacs #orgmode export to #LaTeX and lovingly hand-crafted #heirloom #doctools #troff (-me).
I briefly considered an export from #orgmode to #groff (-ms) via #pandoc to see if the two approaches could possibly share anything, but that may be a gulf that is not worth crossing.One of the macros I had coded up was to present something as a link to its entry in the appendix the first time it appeared on a new page, and ordinary text without link for subsequent mentions on the same page. While I’m sure there is a way to do this in the #TeX universe, I don’t know (yet) if it is considered sufficiently within the #LaTeX mindset to be worth attempting.
Building up from physical to logical to semantic markup feels more natural in #troff. Reaching down from #LaTeX into #TeX to perform computation in your document feels discouraged, doubly so when exporting from #orgmode. It is a wonderful method for planning, organizing, and ultimately creating a beautiful document from a single source file.
Different people want different things out of their typesetting systems. I’m glad to have spent some time in both the #troff and #TeX worlds.
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Don’t get me wrong; I’m reasonably proud of what I have accomplished with #heirloom #doctools (a.k.a. #troff that is not #groff) and I even learned a few neat #makefile tricks along the way. But given how much time I spend with #emacs and #orgmode perhaps I should seriously investigate duplicating or imitating the work in #LaTeX. It did not take as long as I feared it would to get the color and font matters worked out. The #macros look like they will translate easily enough, with some support from #elisp. Links and bookmarks look like they will work themselves out. Pictures could be…interesting.
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Don’t get me wrong; I’m reasonably proud of what I have accomplished with #heirloom #doctools (a.k.a. #troff that is not #groff) and I even learned a few neat #makefile tricks along the way. But given how much time I spend with #emacs and #orgmode perhaps I should seriously investigate duplicating or imitating the work in #LaTeX. It did not take as long as I feared it would to get the color and font matters worked out. The #macros look like they will translate easily enough, with some support from #elisp. Links and bookmarks look like they will work themselves out. Pictures could be…interesting.
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Don’t get me wrong; I’m reasonably proud of what I have accomplished with #heirloom #doctools (a.k.a. #troff that is not #groff) and I even learned a few neat #makefile tricks along the way. But given how much time I spend with #emacs and #orgmode perhaps I should seriously investigate duplicating or imitating the work in #LaTeX. It did not take as long as I feared it would to get the color and font matters worked out. The #macros look like they will translate easily enough, with some support from #elisp. Links and bookmarks look like they will work themselves out. Pictures could be…interesting.
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Don’t get me wrong; I’m reasonably proud of what I have accomplished with #heirloom #doctools (a.k.a. #troff that is not #groff) and I even learned a few neat #makefile tricks along the way. But given how much time I spend with #emacs and #orgmode perhaps I should seriously investigate duplicating or imitating the work in #LaTeX. It did not take as long as I feared it would to get the color and font matters worked out. The #macros look like they will translate easily enough, with some support from #elisp. Links and bookmarks look like they will work themselves out. Pictures could be…interesting.
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Am Wochenende doch mal „The Revenant“ geguckt und ordentlich beeindruckt. Direkt danach zufällig quasi das feministische Gegenstück dazu in 2 Tagen durchgelesen und wirklich bewegt.
#Literatur #Groff #Wildnis -
Eine interessante 30minütige Folge Das Wissen vom #SWR über unsere [überwiegend falschen!] Vorstellungen vom #Mittelalter - und deren Korrektur durch moderne Forschung, zu der auch gut das Buch Matrix von Lauren #Groff passt!
[Wenn niemand die Frauennamen hashtaggt, wird man sie auch niemals finden können!]
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4EuNumyDsYrJYvjQPw2LvG?si=d_DasWT1Sd2Ms8wIrw6uRw
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Actually, this really looks well! I have never been able to manage to write #groff documents, but this looks really well with plain #reStructuredText (or #rst) documents.
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(Translations below.)
Textsatzfreunde aufgemerkt: jüngst veröffentlichte ich Version 0.14 des weltweit besten, weil einzigen IDEs für #groff (epischer als LaTeX). Rückmeldung gern gesehen. https://groff.tuxproject.de
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There was also debate in #Groff about whether the calculus consider the effects on employees
The Court has held that "Impacts on coworkers are relevant only to the extent those impacts go on to affect the conduct of the business."
The Supreme Court in Groff also makes clear that hostility to a particular religion or religious accommodations is not the type of coworker impact that should be taken into consideration.
#SCOTUS #SupremeCourt #TitleVII #religion #Law #lawFedi #Fedilaw
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Title VII requires that employers provide religious accomodations to their employees unless it imposes an "undue hardship"
Previously, that was interpreted leniently as anything more than a de minimus cost
test is more now rigorous, so more protection for religious employees
[The Supreme Court adopted neither side's standard.
One wanted to keep it the same & the other wanted to incorporate the ADA undue hardship standard. ]
#TitleVII #religion #Groff #SCOTUS #SupremeCourt #law #LawFedi
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Why wasn't SCOTUS all onboard given its record of privileging religion regardless of cost?
Maybe
One, it was a clash between two of its favorite things, religion and businessTwo, Kavanaugh observed there were religious interests on both sides, the Sabbath observer employee who felt compelled to go to church on Sunday and his coworkers who would cover him who might have wanted to go to church on Sunday.
#SCOTUS #SupremeCourt #Groff #TitleVII #FediLaw #Law #LawFedi #LawProf #employment
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Ok, I'm pretty sure cawf 4.10 is the last version of cawf. It's from 1996. The minix version I was playing with earlier is either 4.8 or 4.9.
(groff released in '97, pretty much made cawf pointless)
It was an easy port to RISC OS. I have a little bit of packaging to do yet but it's basically done.
Unfortunately it still can't deal with mandoc or mdoc manpages.
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I must confess to some concern about what Groff's new standard means for the inevitable case where a religious employee insists on a Title VII right to misgender coworkers as a religious accommodation.
Will harm to the misgendered employees be considered to "affect the conduct of the business"?
#LGBTQ #equality #Groff #SCOTUS #SupremeCourt #law #lawFedi #FediLaw #FediProf
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I've recently launched an idea at https://polytype.dev — a sort of Rosetta Stone for #typesetting engines.
The goal is to build up a sample gallery that showcases both differences and similarities between the input and output of #SILE, #TeXLaTeX, #Typst, #speedata, #weasyprint, #pagedjs, #groff, #satysfi, #patoline, and potentially others.
The source code is at https://github.com/alerque/polytype and contributions are very welcome! The UI in particular could use the touch of a front-end developer!
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I love it when technical correctness breaks something at a time when I'm already so annoyed that I'm forced to go read the docs.
Yes, rendering this character as such is *correct*, but is it *helpful* for where 99%+ of the users encounter groff? Is it? Is it really?
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@jhilden Nice one!
I did some playing around with a few #typesetting engines and #TeXLaTeX seems to make this mistake pretty easy to make and hard to avoid; #groff also bungles it a bit although differently.
It was fun to play with, but I'm guessing your sample is more likely to trace back to a GUI like InDesign. In any case somebody went to the trouble of getting the right degree symbol, then botched the rest.
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@omikhleia Having just worked on Dropcap samples for #SILE, #Typst, #Groff, and #TeXLaTEX for https://polytype.dev I can say pretty confidently SILE's is the nicest implementation out there right now. Others have manual controls for how to handle capitals with descenders like reserving an extra line or always squishing it in, but none have both manual and automatic metrics handling that can run unattended.
