#classicalchinese — Public Fediverse posts
Live and recent posts from across the Fediverse tagged #classicalchinese, aggregated by home.social.
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Here is a translation note I wrote just now while working on the Annals of Yanzi, because it's informative on its own:
“Three thousand servants, three girlfriends and four ministers” isn’t necessarily meant to be taken as those exact numbers, but can stand for “a few thousand, a few, several” in the same way that we say “a couple” to mean not necessarily exactly two but definitely more than one.
This is because there is no grammatical singular/plural distinction in Classical Chinese, so you just throw out a keyword that gives the ballpark size and move on. They will often give a range to indicate the non-literal nature, such as saying “five, six colors” to mean “many colors.” Keep this in mind when trying to do math with numbers given in ancient sources!
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I had to make a relationship chart of Yanzi’s favorite historical guys to bring up when dunking on his pet fail-dukes. I’m sure it will expand onto second and third post-it notes…
And yes, there’s Zhou (dynasty, presumed good) and Zhou (guy, total fuckup)
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The first anecdote of Our Boy Yanzi, which I translated just now, is not one of the funnier stories; but it may be funnier if I preface that the duke in this story (who is not even the drunkest duke!) gets assassinated afterwards because he tried to bang his own kingmaker's wife.
OUR BOY YANZI (The Annals of Yanzi), Book 1 Chapter 1, Anecdote A: Duke Zhuang Brags Of Strength While Ignoring Justice; Yanzi Tells Him Off
Duke Zhuang boasted of his strength and manly courage, but did not give much thought to justice and good conduct. Warriors did whatever they wanted throughout the land, the Duke’s family did not correct him, and his most trusted ministers did not advise him. So, Yanzi showed up.
The Duke said, “Didn’t the ancients also rule the world by courage and strength?”
Yanzi told him, “I have heard that someone who would rather die than act uncivilized is courageous, and one who unflinchingly opposes cruelty is strong. Therefore, the way to be courageous and strong is to first be civilized and just. There have been heroes in the past, like the founders of the Shang and Zhou dynasties, who raised armies without traitorous intent. They unified nations not for their own gain, but for the sake of humanity and justice. To oppose cruelty and arrest criminals without fear of reprisal, that’s real courage.”
“Ancient heroes were civilized and just. But nowadays, the rulers are inhumane and their servants do not punish criminals or prevent cruelty. They rule by strength alone, leading the nation into disaster. The common people follow and destroy their own families.”“As the Xia Dynasty waned, there were many men who were strong. They could run a thousand miles, they could wrangle a rhinoceros and tear a tiger in half. They terrorized the whole world with their strength, murdering the innocent. Praising strength, neglecting justice, this culminated in the reigns of Jie the Cruel and Horse-Ass Zhou, the worst kings to ever rule, and the downfall of their dynasties.”
“So now you’re bragging about how strong you are, you’re neglecting justice, warriors are running loose, might is making right, your family isn’t pulling you aside and your ministers aren’t standing up to you; you’re doing everything that virtuous sage-kings didn’t and everything that disastrous fail-kings did. Can’t say I’ve ever heard of that working out.”
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what would YOU prefer I focus my Classical Chinese translation time on? (Anything I translate will be free to read and in a modern, non-hyper-literal style)
1) finish the Analects of Confucius, of which there are already three chapters; there are already many translations of this, mine is just, well, internet-flavored https://xn--hmr.net/classicalchinese/analects/
2) the Salt and Iron Concords - a transcript of a bunch of guys around a table arguing economic policy over 2000 years ago, because the emperor is too dead to be offended if they disagree out loud with him; largely falls along "the virtue of the self-sufficient household" vs "the practicality of industrialization and specialization" lines
3) Our Boy Yanzi (The Annals of Yanzi), the legend of ancient China's shortest, ugliest philosopher constantly telling off the drunkest duke for being the worst
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Rhyming translation of the little song of an unlucky woman in the Book of Han:
[context: there is a succession dispute over two princes with different mothers, because the son with less rank is considered a stronger leader. The mother with more power, the Empress Dowager, is abusing the other one, a concubine, while the sons aren’t home to see]
Madame Qi sang while she was husking rice:
“My son is a king, his mother a slave;
oh how his comfort do I crave!
Husk, husk, from dawn until dusk,
With only Death beside me.
Three thousand miles you went away;
Who could I send to tell thee?”[The Empress Dowager, at least according to the story, poisoned Madame Qi’s son and then brutally tortured Madame Qi herself. The Empress Dowager’s son, the new Emperor Hui, went insane with shock at her cruelty.]
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a concrete example of why Classical Chinese is an unintelligble nightmare when spoken aloud by modern dictionary rules:
何 "why?" (one syllable)
何不 "why not?" (two syllables)
盍 a one-syllable contraction for casually saying "why not?"
In ancient pronunciation, roughly: "ha, ha pu, hap."
But Modern Mandarin has lost final -p in all words. Which leaves you with...?
With Classical "何 why?" and "盍 why not?" being pronounced exactly the same: "hé"
This is why modern native speakers hate Classical Chinese in literature class 😂
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I basically didn’t think about Chinese at all for a month for hieroglyphics related reasons, but I got back to crackin’ today and I’m pleased to report yes, I still know most of these words
Here’s a little translation if you’d like to challenge notoriously cold-hearted legalist Han Feizi: “Nobody can draw squares with their left hand and circles with their right.”
(At the same time, loopholers.)
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This morning’s translation exercises included a guy panicking about being promoted to Prime Minister of Imperial China and submitting his resignation three times in one week (all refused).
Looking it up, this guy served under five consecutive emperors, kept trying to quit but no-one would let him, pretended to have a gross foot disease to get out of awkward meetings, and collected cool rocks and sticks. Autism game respects autism game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niu_Sengru
pictured: an attempt to capture how my sketchy ali express ink shines in the sun
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I like to rag on Confucius for being so “kids these days!” so here’s a fair and balanced quotation of his better side:
The Master said: “Everyone is respectable from birth. Why do you assume that those who are young now will not surpass our current standards? Being forty or fifty and having nothing to show for it — that’s what’s unrespectable.”
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Today on ancient diplomacy:
The King of Han said (to another ruler): “You and I have both been ordered to submit to King Huai and swear an oath of brotherhood with each other. Okay! My dad is your dad, bro! And your dad seems like he’d make for a GREAT stew. I hope you’ll save me a bowl.”
(from the Book of Han)
In a case of “cultural assumptions are hard”, the textbook author glossed 北面 as “facing north” which is obvious at the reading level expected for this book, but didn’t think to explain that this is an idiom for submitting as vassal — I had to infer this from how Confucius described someone he admired as being ready to “face south”, that is, assume the throne.
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I have clarified any and all confusions you may have had about ancient Chinese political thought in one convenient chart.
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wiktionary language tags:
Modern Chinese: This account can communicate in Chinese.
Middle Chinese: This user can converse in Medieval Han.
Classical Chinese: Milord doth have literary ambitions.
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“I could do that before breakfast” turns out to be a Boast Most Ancient.
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for a little more context for non-hanzi-havers:
"Traditional" refers to the formally correct way to write a given Chinese character for roughly the last 2000 years.
"Simplified" is a script reform implemented in Mainland China several decades ago, which replaces some of these forms with shorthand widely used in practice, or forms that replace a phonetic hint element that no longer makes sense in modern Mandarin with a more intuitive one.
This change does not affect anywhere near every character. The top 10 characters in my Classical dataset were identical across both modes. Many changes are trivial systematic ones, such as replacing all 訁 with 讠 simply because it's faster and easier to write and less visual clutter.
There are still millions of people who use Traditional as their everyday script, most notably in Taiwan and Hong Kong. However, the number of people who were educated in Simplified now outnumber them by an order of magnitude. All my printed copies of Classical texts are in Simplified, even though they were obviously originally written in Traditional (or one of its precursor forms).
Here are those top 10 most common characters across Analects + Mencius + Zuo Zhuan, which do not differ between modes:
之 "of", "go", "this", "his/hers/their"
子 "child" (extremely common name and title element)
曰 "say" (different from 日 "sun"!)
也 roughly "is, yes" (modern "also")
不 "not"
以: "by"
而 "and, but"
公 roughly "sir" (a title)
其 "him/her/it/that"
人 "person" -
I have made a Traditional vs Simplified cheat sheet sorted by character frequency in core Classical Chinese texts (as opposed to modern books).
https://xn--hmr.net/classicalchinese/tradsimpcheatsheet/
My favorite simplification is 義 to 义, "justice". Absolutely iconic abstract icon.
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Useless Facts, Badly Drawn #507: Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den.
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#poetry #tonguetwisters #comics #literature #china #classicalchinese #language #webcomics #funfacts #facts #uselessfactsbadlydrawn -
犬之初，性本善；不必习，狗乃善。
When doggies are born, they are naturally good; they don't even practice, they're really that good. – lost verse of the Three Character Classic
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犬守夜鸡司晨
苟不学曷为人
蚕吐丝蜂酿蜜
人不学不如物As dogs guard the evening,
As birds hail the morning,
A soul without knowledge
Had best heed this warning:
As silk comes from silkworms,
As honey from bees,
An ignorant person
Is lower than these.A verse of the Three Character Classic, an educational poem for ancient Chinese children, rhyming translation by me.
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okay, my attempt at rendering a very interesting but also very uhh fraught verse of Three Character Classic:
蔡文姬能辨琴
谢道韫能咏吟
彼女子且聪敏
尔男子当自警Miss Wenji was our wisest muse,
Miss Daoyun mastered rhyme;
Yes, girls can have such talents too!
They beat boys all the time!full names Cai Wenji (or Cai Yan) and Xie Daoyun if you want to look them up. I say "fraught" because the most literal interpretation is more like "Even girls can pull it off, so you boys better watch out [or you'll be embarrassed when your sister outdoes you]"
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A second poetic translation in one day? The medication must be working:
苏老泉二十七
始发愤读书籍
彼既老犹悔迟
尔小生宜早思Old Scholar Su was half through life
When he resolved to learn;
And he regretted all those years
That he allowed to burn.
Start reading now while you're yet young
And you'll exceed his reach;
Spend wisely every day and year
And learn what it can teach.A verse of Three Character Classic, an educational poem for ancient Chinese children, rhyming translation by me. It's referencing the story of Su Xun, who did not get crackin' until he was 27, but was a highly respected scholar by the end of his life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su_Xun
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如囊萤如映雪
家虽贫学不辍
如负薪如挂角
身虽劳犹苦卓Read by the glow of fireflies,
Read by the sheen of snow;
No child is too poor to learn,
To study hard, and grow.
While gathering the firewood,
While tending herds in fields;
When work is hard, read further still
And reap the harvest's yields.A verse of the Three Character Classic, an educational poem for ancient Chinese children, rhyming translation by me.
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“Confucius Gets Rekt By A Child,” a blatantly apocryphal anecdote but I do love glimpses into ancient childhood:
Once, they say, while Confucius was traveling with his disciples, they came across some children building a big sand castle right in the middle of the road. The children all scattered when they saw the oncoming carriage, except for one: Xiang Tuo, the smartest little boy in the world.
The driver hurriedly stopped the carriage and demanded to know why this little boy would not get out of the way. Xiang Tuo answered: “You approach my moats! Now tell me, do carriages go around castles, or are castles supposed to get out of the way of carriages?”
After getting a good look at the “castle,” Confucius chuckled. “Oh, what a clever child! I see you are wiser than most, so how about a little wager, some honest fun between young and old. I pose a riddle, you pose a riddle, the winner becomes the teacher and the loser becomes the disciple.”
“It’s a deal!”
Confucius asked: “How many stars are in the sky, how many grains grow upon the earth, how many hairs are in your eyebrows?”
Xiang Tuo answered “One skyful of stars, one cropsful of grains, one faceful of hairs. Now, sir, riddle me this: what water has no fish? What fire has no smoke? What tree has no leaf, and what flower has no stem?”
Confucius answered: “Every river, lake and sea has fish. All firewood gives off smoke when it burns. Whoever has seen a tree with no leaves, or a flower with no stem?”
Beaming, Xiang Tuo explained: “There’s no fish in a well. There’s no smoke coming off a firefly. Dead trees don’t have leaves! And snowflakes (‘snow flowers’) don’t have stems.”
Confucius conceded that the child was now his teacher, but Xiang Tuo asked if he could wash his hands off first before all this teaching stuff.
Translation mine, based on the version found in a book about the Three Character Classic by Hu Yuanyuan. (There are many variations of the story.) Art by Wang Lumin
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The perils of semantic drift over multiple millennia:
"古者，贵以德而贱用兵。"
The intended reading of this ~2100yo statement concerning how to deal with foreigners: "In ancient times, virtue was valued and use of force was despised."
What I first read, influenced by the everyday modern usage of the words:
"In ancient times, virtue was expensive and use of force was cheap."
Literally dead opposite implication!
(sentence is from first few paragraphs of Salt and Iron) #classicalchinese #translation
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读史者考实录
通古今若亲目
口而诵心而惟
朝于斯夕于斯Read all of history, go through every shelf
Ancient to modern, and see for yourself;
Profess with your mouth, possess in your heart
From dawn until dusk, to learn every part.- a verse of Three Character Classic, an educational poem for ancient Chinese children, rhyming translation by me
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The Three Character Classic (a poem for ancient Chinese children to memorize important facts by rhyme) was expanded a few times over the centuries to add new dynasties. The last such addition is: “And then the Qing seized the Mandate and rebalanced the four corners of the earth. There, that’s all of history, you’re all caught up on the drama, the end.”
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夫市之无虎明矣，然而三人言而成虎。
“That there are no tigers in the marketplace is a given, but if three people say ‘tiger!,’ then a tiger pops into existence” (in the mind of the listener) — Han Feizi’s version of the boy who cried wolf
my first-pass glossing is rather idiosyncratic — 夫 is “hwæt” and 矣 is (modern Mandarin) 了 because that’s easier and clearer than trying to map it to a specific English morpheme
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@0xabad1dea you very well pass what a good translation needs to be. My reference in that domain is Patrick Couton https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Couton
He has a really awesome talent to find the correct French image, the correct french similar sounding location, the correct slang. Exactly what you explain with your color and stars etc.
It's just amazing.And so Pratchett will remain one of the English author I prefer to read in my own mother tongue 🤷
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I wrote up my personal philosophy on translating ancient texts, as informed by being raised in a religious environment that had a very unhealthy relationship to its texts. https://xn--hmr.net/classicalchinese/translationphilosophy/
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穷则独善其身， 达则兼济天下
When you are poor, take care of your soul; when you are rich, take care of the world. — Mengzi (Mencius)