#sgml — Public Fediverse posts

»Mit einer Einführung in HTML«
#vcfe #VCFe25 #flohmarkt #modernesantiquariat #vintagecomputing #sgml

@mwichary Table 3 on page 360 of "The SGML Handbook" by Charles F. Goldfarb has a table of the _standard_ assignments for #SGML delimiters which is configurable in the SYNTAX DELIM part of the declaration. STAGO (<), ETAGO (</), MDO (<!), PIO (<?) are closed with TAGC (>), MDC (>), and PIC (>). Curly braces, part of ASCII and Unicode 2.0, are not found.

So your search is for the authorship of the #standard for STAGO, ETAGO, and TAGC. Legacy systems still in use in 1980 used a wide variety of character sets. It is possible that a legacy 6-bit character set was used as a constraint as the bias to all-upper case and lack of curly brackets is consistent with that theory.

As you want history, not speculation, I will point out that #Goldfarb wanted the system to be visually distinct because this format (like GML) was designed for humans to be able to parse and this concern would have been common. But SGML was designed and adopted by a committee building off GML and committees have documents. Good luck!

@david_megginson I worked with #SGML at a publishing company in the late 1990's. I recall the Navy using it for documentation. There was only one other person in my local area I could find that worked with SGML.

I liked working in it but it was a niche job market.

[Перевод] Вся мощь открытого исходного кода в PostgreSQL

PostgreSQL — одна из самых популярных СУБД, и это во многом благодаря открытому исходному коду. В статье рассказывается о том, как открытость кода влияет на развитие PostgreSQL и создание сообщества вокруг неё.

https://habr.com/ru/companies/flant/articles/901622/

#open_source #postgresql #исходный_код #коммиты #commit #git #git_log #sgml #git_blame #source_code

Does anyone happen to have a copy of:

Floyd, Michael. A Conversation with Charles F. Goldfarb. Web Techniques (Vol.3, Issue 11), pp.38–41, November, 1998

It used to be online, but has now disappeared, and the Internet Archive doesn’t have it either. I’d like to check a quote that I copied back then.

#XML #SGML #computerhistory

Markup Languages, by @j9t [@frontenddogma.com]:

https://meiert.com/en/blog/markup-languages/

#overviews #linklists #sgml #html #xml #xhtml #hdml #dhtml #mathml #wml #chtml

Markup Languages, by @j9t [@frontenddogma.com]:

https://meiert.com/en/blog/markup-languages/

#overviews #linklists #sgml #html #xml #xhtml #hdml #dhtml #mathml #wml #chtml

Markup Languages, by @j9t [@frontenddogma.com]:

https://meiert.com/en/blog/markup-languages/

#overviews #linklists #sgml #html #xml #xhtml #hdml #dhtml #mathml #wml #chtml

Markup Languages, by @j9t [@frontenddogma.com]:

https://meiert.com/en/blog/markup-languages/

#overviews #linklists #sgml #html #xml #xhtml #hdml #dhtml #mathml #wml #chtml

Markup Languages, by @j9t [@frontenddogma.com]:

https://meiert.com/en/blog/markup-languages/

#overviews #linklists #sgml #html #xml #xhtml #hdml #dhtml #mathml #wml #chtml

Well, “Episode 21: Keynote — John McCarthy” actually has a recording and he gives that quote at timestamp 1:13:15:
http://www.oopsla.org/oopsla2007/index56d8.html
http://www.oopsla.org/podcasts/Keynote_JohnMcCarthy.mp3

“When W3C decided not to use #LISP format but to imitate #SGML for that [it] showed a certain capacity to make mistakes” *laughter* “which they probably hadn't lost”

Conclusion: the first part is similar, but the second part of the original quote is unfamiliar.

Isn't the WWW a wonderful to be able to research this? #markupLanguages

@david_megginson @HugoHeagren Currently, I use https://github.com/docbook/xslTNG which depends on the open source home edition of saxon XSLT processor to convert DocBook XML to HTML/ePub, and use #CSS based publishing softwares like https://vivliostyle.org or https://www.princexml.com/

There are zero actively maintained/usable on modern computers #SGML or #DSSSL processors known to me.

The statement “`<input checkbox>` is per SGML rules equivalent to `<input type="checkbox">`, but HTML parsers treat it as `<input checkbox="">`” is…

#sgml #html

@dx @sundogplanets

fwiw, I used #DocBook #SGML in #Emacs to generate LaTeX/LilyPond, even when Macmillan demanded I submit MSWord¹ docs, I'd just emit them as an output! Mind you, that was last century, but I'd still do it that way today, if I had to.
___
¹ I call those apps "font painters', or WYSIAYG (what you see is ALL you get

Web browsers use #SGML parsers to parse #HTML:

SHORTTAG syntax in SGML kinda reminds of Pug (et al.) which I love.

```
<title/Misinterpreted/
<p/Little-known SGML markup features/
```

From: https://htmlparser.info/introduction/

#ReadThePlatform #HTML #SGML

using #ed and #SGML to take notes xD hahah 🤣🤣🤣

@callionica HTML before 4.0 was defined with SGML which gives it the flexibility of auto closing tags, but I doubt any #SGML / #DSSSL implementation is still useable today and if people would still be willing to learn it after the language specification has been stale for a while

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language#:~:text=SGML%20descended%20from%20IBM%27s,in%20%22The%20SGML%20Handbook%22.

As I possibly need to do soon something with #DITA.
DITA which is based on XML with some DTD is as like as HTML derived from SGML. In fact HTML is a simplified SGML.
I was aware that #SGML was developed at Boing. They invented it for Airplane documentation.

Today I learned that SGML is based on GML: "General Markup Language" from IBM.
But maybe simply "Golfarb, Mosher, Lorie": the #IBM engineers back in the 1960s.

@balladeer

This actually sounds like a good use case for #SGML. I'm pretty sure you could define all, or at least most, of Markdown syntax using the SHORTREF feature. From there you could add any additional metadata tags (possibly with their own custom SHORTREF syntax) you want into the grammar

SGML is a bit of a beast however, it can be daunting to get started with it... :blobfoxthink:

What’s especially interesting is that Don Chamberlin isn’t just some random IBMer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Chamberlin). And he wasn’t only involved with Quill SGML editor, but also with the Quilt XML query language, which heavily influenced XQuery (he was one of the editors of the W3C XQuery 1.0 recommendation).

#XMLPrague #REXX #SGML #HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

What’s especially interesting is that Don Chamberlin isn’t just some random IBMer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Chamberlin). And he wasn’t only involved with Quill SGML editor, but also with the Quilt XML query language, which heavily influenced XQuery (he was one of the editors of the W3C XQuery 1.0 recommendation).

#XMLPrague #REXX #SGML #HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

What’s especially interesting is that Don Chamberlin isn’t just some random IBMer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Chamberlin). And he wasn’t only involved with Quill SGML editor, but also with the Quilt XML query language, which heavily influenced XQuery (he was one of the editors of the W3C XQuery 1.0 recommendation).

#XMLPrague #REXX #SGML #HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

What’s especially interesting is that Don Chamberlin isn’t just some random IBMer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Chamberlin). And he wasn’t only involved with Quill SGML editor, but also with the Quilt XML query language, which heavily influenced XQuery (he was one of the editors of the W3C XQuery 1.0 recommendation).

#XMLPrague #REXX #SGML #HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

In my talk for the 2019 #XMLPrague paper “History and the Future of Markup” http://archive.xmlprague.cz/2019/files/xmlprague-2019-proceedings.pdf#page=335 I speculated about the use of #REXX as a language for #SGML tree manipulation.

Last night I “discovered” that REXX had indeed been used for this at IBM, and Goldfarb knew about it: namely in the experimental Quill editor running on an experimental windowing system on an experimental operating system on the IBM RT PC… (see, e.g., https://doi.org/10.1145/62506.62524)

#HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

In my talk for the 2019 #XMLPrague paper “History and the Future of Markup” http://archive.xmlprague.cz/2019/files/xmlprague-2019-proceedings.pdf#page=335 I speculated about the use of #REXX as a language for #SGML tree manipulation.

Last night I “discovered” that REXX had indeed been used for this at IBM, and Goldfarb knew about it: namely in the experimental Quill editor running on an experimental windowing system on an experimental operating system on the IBM RT PC… (see, e.g., https://doi.org/10.1145/62506.62524)

#HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

In my talk for the 2019 #XMLPrague paper “History and the Future of Markup” http://archive.xmlprague.cz/2019/files/xmlprague-2019-proceedings.pdf#page=335 I speculated about the use of #REXX as a language for #SGML tree manipulation.

Last night I “discovered” that REXX had indeed been used for this at IBM, and Goldfarb knew about it: namely in the experimental Quill editor running on an experimental windowing system on an experimental operating system on the IBM RT PC… (see, e.g., https://doi.org/10.1145/62506.62524)

#HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

In my talk for the 2019 #XMLPrague paper “History and the Future of Markup” http://archive.xmlprague.cz/2019/files/xmlprague-2019-proceedings.pdf#page=335 I speculated about the use of #REXX as a language for #SGML tree manipulation.

Last night I “discovered” that REXX had indeed been used for this at IBM, and Goldfarb knew about it: namely in the experimental Quill editor running on an experimental windowing system on an experimental operating system on the IBM RT PC… (see, e.g., https://doi.org/10.1145/62506.62524)

#HistoryOfComputing #DocumentEngineering

Could anybody point out a report on the current status of #SGML (minus #HTML) in the wild? How does that promised longevity of F-16 documentation work in reality?

@juliobiason Actually, #CSS was not meant to fix #HTML. Independent stylesheets were planned from the beginning (as a parallel to #FOSI and #DSSSL for #SGML). (updated with the reference to FOSI, I knew that DSSL was just hacker-only non-corporate solution).

Nota, Typst и Evidence. Языки программирования для генерации документов

Все настолько привыкли к Markdown, что считают его неким стандартом для оформления документов в вебе. Но это не конечная истина, высеченная на камне, а просто популярный язык разметки, как HTML и TeX. В то же время появляется всё больше новых языков, которые позиционируют себя как замену, альтернативу или дополнение к Markdown и TeX. В некоторых случаях они включают функции программирования, то есть позволяют добавить в документ исполняемый код. Веб-редакторы нового поколения можно использовать даже вместо Google Docs.

https://habr.com/ru/companies/ruvds/articles/778992/

#ruvds_статьи #Nota #Evidence #LaTeX #Typst #Markdown #бизнесаналитика #Google_Docs #IDE #VSCode #HTML #SGML #KML #KMZ #MathML #SVG #TeX #викиразметка #MediaWiki #Extensible_3D #X3D #XHTML #XML #XHTML_Basic #WML #CHTML #XHTML_MP #Markdoc #Quarto #MDX #Jinja #Liquid #шаблонизаторы #базовое_счисление #Living_Papers

Nota, Typst и Evidence. Языки программирования для генерации документов

Все настолько привыкли к Markdown, что считают его неким стандартом для оформления документов в вебе. Но это не конечная истина, высеченная на камне, а просто популярный язык разметки, как HTML и TeX. В то же время появляется всё больше новых языков, которые позиционируют себя как замену, альтернативу или дополнение к Markdown и TeX. В некоторых случаях они включают функции программирования, то есть позволяют добавить в документ исполняемый код. Веб-редакторы нового поколения можно использовать даже вместо Google Docs.

https://habr.com/ru/companies/ruvds/articles/778992/

#ruvds_статьи #Nota #Evidence #LaTeX #Typst #Markdown #бизнесаналитика #Google_Docs #IDE #VSCode #HTML #SGML #KML #KMZ #MathML #SVG #TeX #викиразметка #MediaWiki #Extensible_3D #X3D #XHTML #XML #XHTML_Basic #WML #CHTML #XHTML_MP #Markdoc #Quarto #MDX #Jinja #Liquid #шаблонизаторы #базовое_счисление #Living_Papers

IBM Lexx editor, 1985.

Ground zero for horrible SGML-derived formats.

#retrocomputing #SGML

@benjedwards
Does AWK count? For Windows, I'd say Notepad++.

Long ago I formatted directories in #SGML. So big props to James Clark's #DSSSL engine, Jade.

For arcade games, I nominate Qix from #Taito, developed by Randy and Sandy Pfeiffer.

@JacksonBates

Back in 1994 I was working with SGML and CSS, and it was depressing that HTML had no understanding of CSS. We used a browser called Panorama, which could render SGML using CSS. Sadly its fate was that of Betamax.

#SGML #CSS #PanoramaBrowser

@JacksonBates

Back in 1994 I was working with SGML and CSS, and it was depressing that HTML had no understanding of CSS. We used a browser called Panorama, which could render SGML using CSS. Sadly its fate was that of Betamax.

#SGML #CSS #PanoramaBrowser

@JacksonBates

Back in 1994 I was working with SGML and CSS, and it was depressing that HTML had no understanding of CSS. We used a browser called Panorama, which could render SGML using CSS. Sadly its fate was that of Betamax.

#SGML #CSS #PanoramaBrowser

@JacksonBates

Back in 1994 I was working with SGML and CSS, and it was depressing that HTML had no understanding of CSS. We used a browser called Panorama, which could render SGML using CSS. Sadly its fate was that of Betamax.

#SGML #CSS #PanoramaBrowser

@JacksonBates

Back in 1994 I was working with SGML and CSS, and it was depressing that HTML had no understanding of CSS. We used a browser called Panorama, which could render SGML using CSS. Sadly its fate was that of Betamax.

#SGML #CSS #PanoramaBrowser

Help request: #XPath for #SGML tools/methods?

I'd like to do some XPath querying into data from the Coptic Scriptorium, which is in SGML format (lots of overlapping hierarchies, so no XML is not an option).

Anybody have recent experience with tooling for this task?

#DH #DigitalHumanities

boosts welcome

@steve @online-news

I am showing my age now, but I think we even had classes at uni on using SGML and also classes about different hypertext models... then within a short time SGML was obsolete... We were also using a version of Java <1.

#hypertext #sgml #html #java

@reiver Interesting! I used to work with #SGML and defined the typesetting style documents using #FrameMaker and later with #DSSSL and Jade. #DescriptiveMarkup