#lml — Public Fediverse posts
Live and recent posts from across the Fediverse tagged #lml, aggregated by home.social.
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@davemq @jameshowell @ericsfraga @mstempl @sacha
True.
However, you've switched from a very rich syntax (#LaTeX) to a very simplistic one (lightweight markup language - #LML). There's a difference in output: https://karl-voit.at/2015/07/26/LaTeX-typography/
Don't get me wrong: I, too, prefer writing documents in #Orgmode and exporting to PDF myself. It's a very good compromise.
Meanwhile, I'd not care if the process switched from org->(pdf)latex->PDF to org-> #typst ->PDF or anything similar.
However, I'm not so sure if I'd use Org for setting a document where I really want to get the maximum, like I tried with my PhD thesis: https://karl-voit.at/tagstore/en/papers.shtml
Edit: also related: https://karl-voit.at/2017/08/26/latex-fetish/
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@jarango Everything true.
However, I disagree with #Markdown: https://www.karl-voit.at/2025/08/17/Markdown-disaster/
It's way more open than, let's say, #OneNote & so forth. Unfortunately, it's far from being a #textformat that can be reused anywhere without problems. At least I need to convert MD all the time from one flavor to a different.
With more and more #Obsidian add-ons introducing their own syntax elements, you will end up with clear text files you still can't convert for a different tool without modifications. Good luck with finding out which elements are going to survive and which not. For a few files, that seems OK. If you have a decent #PKM like you describe in your awesome #DulyNoted book, it requires more effort.
For everything I need to use with #MD, I keep a syntax file with one example element so that I keep an overview & know what to convert how in case I need to reuse information stored in this MD flavor.
With org, I just push it through #pandoc & I'm done. 🤷
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Like you, I use markdown to write notes in Joplin. And to write Fedi posts such as this one. (wafrn, the Fedi software I am using, supports writing posts in markdown.)
My only suggestion: do not get seduced by markdown's ease of use. Do not try to use it indiscriminately. Do not use it for documents that require complex markup (text with lots of subscripts/superscripts, mathematical equations, chemical formulae, nested sections, tables, columns, etc.), or even for simple but very long documents (long-form writing, books).
Basically, limit its use to short documents/notes that require very little markup.
This article is a good overview of the benefits and limitations of markdown.
As an aside, I hope djot replaces markdown as the most popular lightweight markup language in the near future.
#LML #djot #markdown #joplin #joplinapp #writing -
My article about "#Markdown Is a Disaster: Why and What to Do Instead" from https://karl-voit.at/2025/08/17/Markdown-disaster/ was listed on the entry page of #HackerNews yesterday.
It hurts me to read through the comments. One part of the people who commented obviously didn't read the article they're commenting on.
And another part of the commenters does mix up #Orgmode, the Elisp implementation within #Emacs, with orgdown, the lightweight syntax which is actually the topic of this article. This part of the discussion is totally missing the whole point of my article: practical issues related to Markdown; choosing any other #LML which doesn't come with those downsides. #Orgdown was just one example of many which I wanted to mention because it is one of the least known alternatives outside the Emacs bubble.
🤷
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@ericsfraga @oantolin Yes, the direct and initial benefits of #Orgdown are mostly for non-Emacs people: https://karl-voit.at/2021/11/27/orgdown/
However, just imagine for a minute, that all #Markdown usage is replaced with Orgdown usage. Let your thoughts wander for a moment.
This would have tremendous impact on the #Emacs people as well when it comes to working with external tools and people.
#PIM #LML #indirectprofitability #markup #publicvoit #orgmode
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Besides not using a better #LML syntax such as #Orgdown, I really do like the way how @silverbulletmd is transparent about its #Markdown downsides.
That's why I extended my article on the downsides of Markdown with it as an example: https://karl-voit.at/2025/08/17/Markdown-disaster/
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@yojimbo @screwlisp Maybe.
In best case, this would be a discussion within the org community and not my personal decision any more.
So far, nobody expressed interest in contributing to the idea/concept but I'm more than happy if this would change and I'm out of the game in terms of a one person project.
The community could then define a new name, next steps, OD2, ...
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In a couple of hours (8am UTC, 10am CET), I'll be live on the #screwtape channel by @screwlisp on https://communitymedia.video/c/screwtape_channel/videos
We'll be talking about #Markdown and #Orgdown because I recently published "Markdown Is a Disaster: Why and What to Do Instead" https://karl-voit.at/2025/08/17/Markdown-disaster/
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«Unicode is good. If you’re designing a data structure or protocol that has text fields, they should contain #Unicode characters encoded in #UTF8. There’s another question, though: “Which Unicode characters?” The answer is “Not all of them, please exclude some.”
This issue keeps coming up, so [ @paulehoffman and @timbray ] put together an individual-submission draft to the IETF and now (where by “now” I mean “two years later”) it’s been published as #RFC9839. It explains which characters are bad, and why, then offers three plausible less-bad subsets that you might want to use.»
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2025/08/14/RFC9839 by @timbray
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#Markdown Is a Disaster: Why and What to Do Instead
https://karl-voit.at/2025/08/17/Markdown-disaster/Here's my article where I summarize the subtle and no so subtle downsides when you choose Markdown for your information instead of a different markup syntax that doesn't come with all the downsides of #MD.
#publicvoit #orgdown #orgmode #LML #pandoc #rst #restructuredtext #asciidoc #Wikitext #BBCode #Creole #Crossmark #Djot #CommonMark #lockin
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A few people wanted to proof-read my upcoming article with (potentially unpopular) contra-arguments on the use of #Markdown as #LML.
Unfortunately, I can't find those Mastodon messages using its search interface anymore. 😩
If you're really interested, please write my a DM now. I can accept suggestions until Sunday noon CET.
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Yes, it is: https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
However, I'll publish at least 2 articles over the next weeks that summarize the issues and #lockin effects of #Markdown.
The solution is not just #orgdown but any lightweight markup language (#LML) that lacks the downsides of Markdown: heavy fragmentation, too many issues when processed via tools, inconsistent design, hard to learn and type, ...
Orgdown is just one of many candidates. 🙇
(IMO the best but that's open to subjective opinion.)
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Absolutely.
#orgdown = the name for the syntax of Org-mode which can be used anywhere and which got great support outside of Emacs just as #Markdown has support outside any MD tool you name including pandoc.
#orgmode = Elisp implementation to Support note-taking (and much more) with a #LML named orgdown in (GNU) Emacs with highlighting and modification features.
Background:
https://karl-voit.at/2021/11/27/orgdown/
https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown/And my current main article on that:
Org Mode Syntax Is One of the Most Reasonable Markup Languages to Use for Text
https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/I'll publish an article on the many downsides of Markdown in a few weeks. You might want to add my blog feed to your RSS aggregator.
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@zstg @thelinuxcast We should actually get rid of #Markdown. 😉
It is one of the worst lightweight markup languages you can decide for except for adoption: it's bad with respect for learning, for typing manually and for processing.
Avoid the Markdown flavor hell and go for any other #LML that doesn't come with all the downsides.
#orgdown, the syntax of #orgmode is one of the examples where the downsides of Markdown are avoided.
Please, don't settle for a mediocre solution again.
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@gnulinux Stay tuned. Ich habe zum Thema #Markdown + dessen fürchterliche (und zum Teil subtile) Nachteile eine Artikelserie in Arbeit.
Da dies oft zu Missverständnissen führt, musste ich da etwas ausholen - kostet viel Zeit zum Recherchieren & Schreiben.
Den Großteil habe ich bereits.
Nur soviel: statt MD sollte man Lightweight Markup Languages (#LML) verwenden, die in ihrer ursprünglichen Definition bereits so definiert wurden, dass man die wichtigsten Syntaxelemente nicht erst mit (zueinander inkompatiblen) Flavors usw. bekommt.
MD hat ja schon in der Urform beispielsweise zwei unterschiedliche Typen von Headings definiert. 🤦♂️
#Orgdown ist so ein Vertreter, das meiner Meinung nach auch die beste Wahl für einen Ersatz zu Markdown ist. Ein Umstieg hat - je nach Anforderungsset - durchaus viele Vorteile, die man erst dann erkennt, wenn man mal Markdown losgeworden ist. Und da zähle ich den hervorragenden Tool-Support durch #Emacs noch gar nicht dazu. Der ist auch optional. :emacs:
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#LibreOffice möchte #Markdown unterstützen: https://www.heise.de/news/LibreOffice-erhaelt-Markdown-Support-10477309.html
Dumme Idee.
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Lincoln Minerals ( #LML ) has released " Kookaburra Graphite Project Delivers 99.97% TGC purity " on Thu 22 May at 08:21 AEST #ESG #government #CSIRO #Mining #Australia
https://grafa.com/asset/lincoln-minerals-limited-2886-lml.asx?utm_source=asxmktsensitive&utm_medium=mastodon&utm_campaign=lml.asx -
Lincoln Minerals ( #LML ) has released " Quarterly Activities/Appendix 5B Cash Flow Report " on Tue 29 Apr at 12:16 AEST #tax #government #Commodity #Mining #Australia
https://grafa.com/asset/lincoln-minerals-limited-2886-lml.asx?utm_source=asxmktsensitive&utm_medium=mastodon&utm_campaign=lml.asx -
Should I dare to do a "why #Markdown is one of the worst lightweight markup syntax languages there is"-session at a UX/UI-dominant #barcamp? 😜
C'mon, do push me over that cliff! 😆
Background: https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/ 👉 it's related but would be a different focus since I won't push #orgdown that much - people can be happier with other LMLs as well as long as it's not the #MD hell. (Sneak preview: I'm writing a long article on all the MD issues in order to explain it once and for all since the Mastodon discussions are really annoying to me.)
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@ajlewis2 @ellane @feralthoughts @hbowie @reichenstein
Just for clarification: same holds true for any other markup supported by pandoc, not just #Markdown.
However, if you stick with a syntax language that doesn't come with this explosion of flavors, you have less issues converting your data - in some cases you don't even have to convert at all any more.
The issue with Markdown is that its original form defined a small minimum of elements and each tool defined its own potentially incompatible extensions. With other #LML, the "original" or its standard defines the maximum set of elements and therefore, there is no need for "flavors" and no data loss or conversion effort.
HTH
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@amoroso My thoughts:
- They mix up Markdown with the general term lightweight #markup language (as if #Markdown is the only #LML syntax)
- They ignore all other markup syntax examples such as (La)TeX, HTML, ...
- great screenshots of Word for DOS upwards 👍
- the title should be "#WYSIWYG vs. LML" (instead of the Word vs. Markdown story)
- no mentioning of other LML examples
Well it looks, as if we're settling for a mediocre standard again.
Related: https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
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@Xhuul I haven't found any decent #Markdown editor yet that convinced me.
And yes, I prefer Emacs with #orgmode.
I even write my text in Org and use the export-to-MD functions to generate the appropriate #MD.
That also saves me from remembering the MD-specifics of the current export target. I always mix up the MD flavors currently at hand because I need to use different MD-enabled tools on a daily basis and all of them have their special markup variants - sometimes it's even necessary to use, e.g., different table syntax (within the same MD tool!) for different table properties such as line breaks and stuff. It's really a bad mess with MD. 😔
Btw: https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
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:fff: Bei der Kickoff Veranstaltung des Land Mobil Lab (#lml) unser Projekt #Nachbarschaftsauto vorgestellt. Super Location in Zwettl bei Frau Ida und tolle Menschen. Spannend was alles in Bewegung ist! :masto_love:
🚌🚲
Jetzt im Bus zurück nach Windigsteig. Freu mich auf radlfahren bei dem Traumwetter :masto_love:
#mobilität #waldviertel -
With #Markdown, the original (inconsistently designed) #LML syntax format is a minimal set that made much sense when used when typing emails and so forth. Later-on, various tools needed more syntax elements for obvious reasons. Those syntax add-ons extended the original Markdown. However, they were not standardized.
This resulted in a zoo of very similar but incompatible set of Markdown flavors. Those differences cause information loss by moving from one "Markdown" tool to another "Markdown" tool because Markdown is not Markdown in most cases.
In contrast to that, #orgdown, the syntax of #Emacs #orgmode, as the one and only original form has - by far - the largest set of syntax elements and various extensions by modules. Any other adaptation of this syntax in other tools chose a real sub-set of the original syntax elements. This makes data transitions much smoother, is less error-prone and causes less data loss.
More on that: https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
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@pandoc Great idea!
Let's introduce one slightly change at a time and in a few years we could transform #Markdown into #orgdown without anybody noticing and finally get a consistently designed and easy to learn lightweight #markup language with excellent tool support. 😈
https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown -
Disclaimer: habe kein Golem+ und daher kenne ich den Inhalt des gesamten Artikels nicht.
Wenn man zwischen #WYSIWYG-Editoren, komplexen #Markup Sprachen wie #HTML oder #LaTeX und #Markdown unterscheidet, hat MD einige Vorteile.
Vergleicht man allerdings die Lightweight Markup Languages (#LML) untereinander, so sind die Nachteile von #MD im Vergleich zu den Alternativen offensichtlich.
Beispiel #orgmode: https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
IMHO sollten bessere LML geboostet werden.
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@ellane Oh, congrats to this new universe of opportunities. 😎
Coming from that direction, you might want to read:
https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only
...still related to the syntax & following related to tooling:
https://karl-voit.at/orgmode/
https://karl-voit.at/2020/01/20/start-using-orgmode/Meanwhile, I'm writing in #Orgdown & generate any #Markdown from that because there's no MD tooling that is able to compete.
Btw, I'll publish an article on lock-in effects related to MD-based tools like #Obsidian.
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#Orgdown (= #OrgMode Syntax) Is One of the Most Reasonable #Markup Languages to Use for Text https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
#publicvoit #LML #markdown #AsciiDoc #Wikitext #reStructuredText #rst #pandoc