#lispygopher — Public Fediverse posts

@screwlisp is having some site connectivity problems so asked me to remind everyone that we'll be on the anonradio forum at the top of the hour (a bit less than ten minutes hence) for those who like that kind of thing:

https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio

He'll also be monitoring LambdaMOO at "telnet lambda.moo.mud.org 8888" for those who do that kind of thing. there are also emacs clients you should get if you're REALLY using telnet.

Topic for today, I'm told, may include the climate, the war, the oil price hikes, some rambles I've recently posted on CLIM, and the book by @cdegroot called The Genius of Lisp, which we'll also revisit again next week.

cc @ramin_hal9001

#LispyGopher #Gopher #Lisp #CommonLisp

For anyone that was listening to the #LispyGopher show and heard about my heating problems, they have been resolved, so I think the risk of the house re-freezing is past. (Knocking wood, just in case that matters.)

@screwlisp

FYI, I have finally published the actual source of my 2014 essay "Whither Original Thought" to my web site. It links to the audio from your radio show a month ago when I had read it aloud for the first time.

https://nhplace.com/kent/Writing/Whither-Original-Thought.html

#Philosophy #Programming #OriginalThought #literacy #education #thought #legitimacy #LispyGopher #invention #originality

@screwtape

This message is part of some prep you and I were doing for an upcoming show, but it also contains information that might have information that is of historical interest, so I'm going to send it in publicly viewable mode, even though it somewhat joins a private conversation already in progress and the context may not be entirely clear.

(I guess people can ask questions if something in here makes no sense out of context, or they can tune in when we talk on your show on what's tentatively slated to be May 13 when we talk about it on-air. Or they can submit questions to you/us privately in advance of that.)

This message will be several sections long.

1/n

#LispyGopher

@screwtape

At the start of your radio show this week, you mentioned the terms haiku/senryū/tanka. I had some comments on that.

I'm not some sort of expert on what these are. I just use the form and figure, in the way that an online poetry class, How Writers Write Poetry, that I took at the University of Iowa's International Writing Program offered, that each poem creates the terms on which it is to be judged. So it really doesn't matter a lot to me whether I'm precisely correct, so much as that I have my own sense of the form I want to say the things i want.

But I also try to at least be vaguely correct. So what follows here is my understanding but is not offered as an authoritative piece. People should feel free to offer corrections or critiques if they like, as long as they realize that I'm not in the first place saying I'm the best place to read about these things. There are some very good online descriptions that differ in subtle ways and I don't even care that they disagree because to me, that's not the point of poetry.

A haiku is a 5-7-5 syllable poem based on nature and seasons. There are a few other subtleties, and some controversy as to whether all project properly into English.

In particular, there is a thing called a kireji that has grammatical form in Japanese or Kanji, I presume representing it (and incidentally shared by Chinese). A kireji is described in Wikipedia as "is a word or phrase that creates a pause or break in the flow of a haiku". I'm unclear about whether this is a fixed set. But I know someone who thinks of it as a semicolon, connecting two full sentences in tight form. I myself just assume that, sans kireji, I should make line (the second 5 in 5-7-5) be a change of direction of some kind, including an irony, a contradiction, a commentary, or some other surprise element. The haiku form is a very short space in which to write anything, so it's important to me not to waste words on that, and merely to nice that line 3 is special

A senryu is the same structure but less about nature and more about things like the 'human foibles' you mentioned.

I have a special problem with knowing whether some of my poetry counts as proper haiku because supposedly it's about the seasons and should include a kigo (season word, which might include things like cherry blossoms associated with the season, not necessarily precisely the season). But climate change disturbs the structure and so the set of elements belonging in the set, not to mention it also "goes meta" and speaks of the mechanical process of how, why, or whether seasons are shifted, not just in-frame views of a season. ChatGPT was supportive of my staking a claim in this space, as it says others have done, but I'm never quit sure when to trust its judgment. I push forward mostly because I'm strong-willed. But I usually label with both terms to acknowledge potential controversy or just difficulty with lookup.

A tanka is a 5-7-5-7-7 poem of similar kind, and I ASSUME it traditionally is a haiku in content but mostly I write senryu so I only presume/force it to be more a modifier than a noun in order to have both tanka-haiku and tanka-senryu, though if you look it up they just say it's a noun.

Tankas are usually two tightly related yet grammatically independent thoughts, even I've read some places, written by different people for the 5-7-5 and the 7-7, where the 7-7 builds a different thought around the core thought of the 5-7-5 part, which I understand to be free-standing. One place I read suggested the 7-7 part was at least sometimes a response that came back from someone writing a haiku as correspondence.

I'm not going to cite extra references here because I'd have to look them up. Better you should do it not only because I am admittedly lazy, but also because in researching it (if you care, and you might legitimately not), you'll probably find some lovely essays by others on how to think about these art forms.

#LispyGopher

Happy new year to all, but special good wishes to @screwtape for conjuring and maintaining this delightfully odd #LispyGopher social group.

cc @fstateaudio @hairylarry @nosrednayduj @me @rat @pkw @prahou @northernlights @SDF @mdhughes @Contrapunctus

@screwtape Thanks to you and @sacha for doing your show. I would have commented, but I am not sure how. Do you respond to this post or do you write a message to hashtag #LispyGopher ?

@screwtape

This will be very rambly and informal and free-format and approximate, but someone might like it...

TECO has been around a long time. It was certainly around when I arrived on the MIT scene 1977-ish. But probably a long time before.

You asked what people used as a screen editor and I have to laugh. TECO was not really a screen editor, but was the implementation substrate for original Emacs. I'll tell the story I know.

TECO had commands that were single character (mostly, though some composed) and you did a set of commands and then could ask to see what you did. Usually, because it also worked on a paper terminal (which recorded everything you typed onto reams of paper), you saw maybe one line of context and then made some change. Some people did really long lives with entire defuns on one line. But it kind of didn't matter. c was the command to move foward. d to delete a character. 3c-4d would go forward 3 characters and delete 4 characters backward. You ended your command with Esc Esc (which echoed as $$) so 3c-4d$$ would show you the edited line and then you'd do more. A single Esc was a command separator or terminator, but two caused it to go.

You could put "macros" (really just strings of commands) in a thing called a q-register (really just a variable, except primitive Teco had no variables). The q-registers were so-called because they were named q0, q1, etc. and also qA, qB, ... qZ. You could put something in them with u. 5uA puts 5 into qA. Some commands were modifiable with @ or : (like in format strings in CL). So while ifoo$ would insert foo into the buffer at the current point, :i05c-4d$ would not insert anything in the buffer but would instead insert '5c-4d' into q0. So once you have strings in q registers you could execute them with m, as in m0 which would execute my sample string from above.

At some point, they changed it on glass (non-paper) screens to show you the buffer as edited, but still it was not doing the WYSIWYG thing. You saw part of a buffer with /\ as a cursor. So /\foo if the cursor was before foo. And Steele suggested that if there was a q-register assigned to each key, you could have it run that macro on hitting that key, which was the origin of emacs ^R (control-R) mode, ^R being the command that would get you into it. R for "real-time" mode. Stallman implemented it. I don't know who thought up the naming, probably Stallman.

The key bindings were on specially named new q-registers that had dots in their names. I think q^RA, q^RB, etc. where ^R was a control-R character. For control-A, q^R.A, for meta-A, q^R..A, etc. and for c-m-A q^R...A, so that allowed binding all the keys.

And at that point you had a realtime mode that was emacs-like. People could have init files that loaded up any of the q-registers with their own bindings, and there were library formats created so people could pre-load complicated definitions.

There was a lot of competition for whose library bindings would win out. Emacs was not the only early offering. Whole other packagings were available from various people. But eventually there was a mostly-consensus on a lot of it, and the rest became libraries on that.

TECO, especially the MIT variant, looks a bit like line noise since nearly every character was a command. But fortunately in libraries the style was to include code on the first half of the line and use the last half of the line as a comment explaining it. Here's a pointer to a library I wrote in TECO that tried to emulate some of the Lisp Machine's mail reader Zmail. If you want to see how the language worked by just kind of letting it roll past you.

https://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/mit_emacs_170_teco_1220/01/emacs/zbabyl.emacs.html

#LispyGopher #TECO #history

@screwtape

Listening on "tape" to the #LispyGopher show I missed earlier tonight...

You mentioned the editorship of the ANSI CL document but seemed uncertain on who my predecessor was. There's a bit of favoritism to the person that finished it, but she put in years of work and doesn't get mentioned enough, so I'll take the chance to mention her work again. She did a LOT of important setup work, dividing the document into the approximate shape that it ended up, before I took it over. She wasn't herself a Lisper, as I recall, but she had Gary Brown, Walter van Roggen, and perhaps others at DEC

Kathy Chapman, then of Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC, at the time a major player in the computer industry), was my predecessor as the Project Editor of the ANSI CL spec. She began with Steele's CLTL as her base document, as I understand it. (Steele later, after much editing by both her and me, said that there was sufficiently little resemblance that he didn't feel we should see it as a derivative work, but I feel a need to at least mention that he was, in point of historical fact, her predecessor, even if his work was done as part of a different project.)

Section 5.5 of Common Lisp: The Untold Story tells about Kathy, so I won't repeat more of that here.

I'm also especially conscious of the need to mention her because of there's been some recent discussion about overlooking women in awarding nobel prizes, and it related to the order of authors and what was inferred from that.

https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2024-10-08/why-researcher-rosalind-lee-the-wife-of-the-nobel-prize-winner-in-medicine-didnt-receive-the-award-as-well.html

I try as best I can to take time out of people's praise for CLHS to note that while CLHS (the hypertextification part) was mine and certainly a bunch of the editing of the original ANSI CL document in TeX was mine, there was also a lot of editing and interpersonal coordination (with committee members offering opinions) by Kathy during her 2 full-time years as editor, and there was tons of other work supporting us, developing and approving technical proposals, administrative management of various kinds, funding efforts, legal help, etc. such that it really was a committee effort.

But when it comes even to the editing, as the Hardcopy Credits (https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/00_.htm) note:

Kent M. Pitman
1993-present [at time of 1994 publication] at Harlequin
1990-1992 at Symbolics
Kathy Chapman
1987-1989 Digital Equipment Corporation

@screwtape

Still listening to this week's LispyGopher show. Now you're talking about whether CLIM is "about graphics" or "about present/accept".

Personally, I'd say these operate at different levels of abstraction so aren't in competition with one another.

One of the cool innovations of what was originally the Lisp Machine's "Dynamic Windows" and later became CLIM is this notion that present/accept are a very abstract way of saying that your program has stuff to give or receive without getting too into the weeds on how that will be done.

And yet when you render a specific presentation, it can't just be abstractly, you have to make concrete choices.

Graphics is one way to do it. Graphics offer a nice way to densely pack information in a way most of us have visual hardware to unpack efficiently.

Then again, one of my best friends is blind, and she'd likely dispute the efficiency of graphics as a way to communicate, and that's what's important about the presentation system--that it has rich enough understanding of what it's done that you could ask it, even after-the-fact, to re-present something in a different way that might be better accessible. And yet to do so in a way that doesn't say "different information needed to be presented", but merely "the information that got presented would be more helpful if it could be re-rendered based on different assumptions".

(Of course, it's been decades since I used CLIM. But I assume those kinds of things haven't changed much.)

#CommonLisp #Lisp #LispyGopher #CLIM

@screwtape

I'm listening to this week's #LispyGopher show on "tape". Thanks for the mentions of my work. You were somewhat apologetic about trying to interpret my words, but inevitably words DO get interpreted. No worries.:) What you said was in range, though I'll add some nuance:

You mentioned the issue of how the climate discussion would be affected by having better access to education. It's not that I mind that people look to community leaders who are well-educated. We need such leaders. But it should be the OPTION of any citizen to be personally well-informed so that they are not reduced to only trusting others.

My general feeling on education is that it should be more central and more available. It's odd because we're a much wealthier society than we allow ourselves to see. We allow riches to pile up in just a few people, with mostly ill effect in my opinion. With a few million dollars, one starts to think of starting companies. With billions, one wonders what one can even do, and it's almost inevitable that one tries to meddle with whole countries. What, other than politics, exists at that kind of monetary scale. But is that something we WANT people to be doing?

The rich disdain most others, who they seem to regard as less educated, capable, or worthy. But why is that? Could it be we've invested less in those people? The rich would say those people should invest in themselves, but the hard problem is getting an initial stake.

We loan money, but through banks. Why? Governments could directly loan money. It's not like they don't have access to money. Moreover, they don't have to worry about collection. They're already set up to collect taxes. Putting banks in the middle is pure gift to the banks. It has no function but to allow friend-bankers to extract profit, which makes loans inefficient and reduces whole populations to debt service needlessly, all on a claim that the banks have to protect themselves from financial risk by higher interest rates, something the government would not have to protect itself from. An entirely contrived problem.

Also, we live in a society where we've gone from human labor to manufacturing, but with ever more automation. And normally people have moved to other jobs as this happens. But with AI, which is more able to pivot quickly than people, the AI will be displacing workers everywhere, except those especially well-prepared educationally. It will gobble up the low end. And business is anxious to do that. It hates human labor. The negotiations, the insurance, the benefits, the whole of it. AI is all about cost-cutting (people-cost cutting).

Meanwhile people get themselves into debt for whole lifetimes just learning one thing, only to find it's not a job skill anyone needs any more. Then what? Education needs to be free because we need retraining faster than most can afford.

And anyway we need it politically because the modern world is more and more complicated, so more and more a victim of Clarke's Third Law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws#The_laws). But we should not, any more than we're forced to, treat the world as full of only magic. We should try to keep up.

It's pointless to have a democracy where everyone gets a vote if the people are voting on information that is not transparently available, whether that information is fair and balanced news reporting or is proper understanding of science or history or art or whatever is affecting them. If you don't understand the question on a ballot, you might as well not have a vote. So education is central there, and to say that only the rich can have an education is to talk about the most severe kind of "poll tax" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_taxes_in_the_United_States) you could possibly imagine.

And, finally, I think there are a lot of things that political conservatives would like us to view as taxes on society. Expenditures are not always taxes, or even what I think of as expenses. An investment is not an expense in the sense of money spent that is just gone. Spending money on education isn't like spending money on a solid gold toilet or a spare yacht. It's something meaningful that helps the world. So it transforms value stored in money to value stored in other ways (and without even destroying the money in the process--now there is some "magic" worth learning about).

But what I'm saying in all-too-roundabout a way is that educating people isn't a gift we give privately to a person that only benefits that person. It's a gift we give ourselves. Because to live in a society of educated people is to enable the best work of SO MANY people who now waste away their lives on pointless small jobs just to make ends meet. Imagine how many of them would be writers, inventors, doctors, etc. if only they could afford it.

If everyone in the world were well-educated, how would that improve our chances against the Climate Crisis?

#climate #education #StudentDebt #debt #AI #unemployment #LispyGopher

#lispyGopher #climate #ARCHIVED https://archives.anonradio.net/202405080000_screwtape.mp3
#haiku by @kentpitman https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112401577767211950
Ageism, @mattof's novel phost
#lisp
kmp's desktop environment idea from the 90s, and light shed on what FOO105 would have been 40 years ago with ams.
@louis , hayley, amber's responses about #veilid
A large thread about #commonlisp #asdf with @theruran on the mastodon.
#KnowledgeRepresentation https://codeberg.org/tfw/pawn-75
#Music @limebar's #faircamp !
#unix_surrealism @prahou
#lambdaMOO sushi

#lispyGopher https://archives.anonradio.net/202405010000_screwtape.mp3 #ARCHIVED
#music @elsemusic
#climate #haiku by @kentpitman https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112361913695544831
- @nosrednayduj's Hacker Heaven in #lambdaMOO today (without her, sadly)
- Checking #gopher phosts
- #ecl #veilid #mcclim #lisp #gameJam ? https://itch.io/jam/spring-lisp-game-jam-2024
- Embedding #veilid C static libraries (then ffi ..)
- @fkinoshita's enum macro https://merveilles.town/@fkinoshita/112357538720951975
- @iacore's quip about machine intelligence ("it's like designing people")
#unix_surrealism @prahou

#lispyGopher #climate #archived
https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio
#haiku and toots by @kentpitman https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112314638254638276
tiny retrospective on NZ's earth day
#lisp
I will read out: https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112305144474962002
For modern and historical relevance.sharpsign reading-other-peoples-essays
Step debugging #ErikSandewall's NOVICE-5, #lambdaMOO and evil companies
#emacs usage and the above https://sfba.social/@kickingvegas/112317520294131038 !
#gopher
What is not the gopher?
#openbsd #veilid
#music @fstateaudio
#unix_surrealism @prahou

#lispyGopher #climate https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio #archived
#haiku https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112280945000979913 @kentpitman
#climateStrike Friday! https://fridaysforfuture.org/april19/
@mgorny #gentoo statement against #LLMs
@TheGibson DESIRES CONNECTION #veilid and this means *you* and *me*
@PeterLudemann's 10th rule of programming (#lisp & #prolog) https://mathstodon.xyz/@PeterLudemann/112277869057526180
Lisp's greatest strength
-> #lisp and hooks
Uncovering the #gopher -slate in #lambdaMOO @masinter thx @mattof #unix_surrealism @prahou
#music @ErrorCrater

#lispyGopher #archived on https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
#music from @fstateaudio (includes noise therapy 77!)
Climate haiku tanka from @kentpitman https://mastodon.sdf.org/@kentpitman@climatejustice.social/112225827926526964
and a lot of other commentary, other scientists
@nosrednayduj #eclipse
Global Warming Acceleration: Hope Versus Hopium article
I connect this to #lisp #knowledgeRepresentation from https://www.ida.liu.se/ext/aica/ approach
Also:
#emacs, the #gopher and the getting into thereof
#unix_surrealism #art by @prahou

#archive
https://archives.anonradio.net/202404030000_screwtape.mp3
https://archives.anonradio.net/202404030030_screwtape.mp3
#archives generally (the wednesdays of)
https://archives.anonradio.net/#screwtape

Also search for the tag #lispyGopher (newer) #lispyGopherShow (older) on mastodon for the episode notes.

@SDF @kentpitman @nosrednayduj @ksaj @wrog @setto @prahou @snowdusk @vidak

#lispyGopher #climate @SDF https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio #ARCHIVED 000UTC Wednesday (aka Tuesday for many)

- @kentpitman #haiku #senryu https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112201055670993958
@nosrednayduj @ksaj

- #lambdaMOO #AprilFools @wrog 's
- The #lambdaMOO (lisp) #VR generally

@setto #music ! https://setto.basspistol.com/

*getting into #lisp* - what and how ?

#gopher + tls (+ netcat?)? Who remembers 2018?

#unix_surrealism #art @prahou

+ @snowdusk please shout out @vidak on the #intergalacticWasabiMix

#lispyGopher #climate 000UTC Wed https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
@northernlights is finishedwe're #live #liveNow
@kentpitman #tanka #senryu #haiku (and amazing winter photography)
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112150618277286182
- also my climate blues about LLM ~ datacentres
- We're hanging out in Paradise Sushi in #lambdaMOO (#43453) as sdf.org com.
@nosrednayduj , the mentor, @me et al ^
#gopher gopher://gopher.club/1/users/gef/moo/mootutor1.txt
#music @fstateaudio #unix_surrealism @prahou
#LISP #LIVING 1/2

@northernlights @SDF @kentpitman @inky @prahou
#lispyGopher #climate #archive
https://archives.anonradio.net/202403200000_screwtape.mp3
https://archives.anonradio.net/202403200030_screwtape.mp3
Archives generally:
https://archives.anonradio.net/#screwtape
@inky 's Peertube (including deep dark inky sets):
@tanakian_channel
Gef:
gopher://gopher.club/1/users/gef
https://gopher.tildeverse.org/gopher.club/1/users/gef
@schroeder ( #afterSTEP )
https://gopher.tildeverse.org/gopher.club/1/users/schroeder

An unexpectedly #archived #lispyGopher #climate NOW @northernlights #show #liveNow #aNONradio @SDF https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio
Follow @kentpitman on the climate & lisp, all https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112097517284385116 #found #poetry
#gopher : gef's great phost asking us each what we're actually doing, candide relatedly
#lisp : A selected biography of #ErikSandewall by yours truly.
#lambdaMOO : My answer to gef's question. #virtualReality as a climate crisis mitigation
#music is @inky !
#art @prahou

#lispyGopher #climate #archived 000UTC Wednesday (Tuesday night for some) https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
Climate #haiku from @kentpitman https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112077643979975034 (do follow share retoot Kent plz)
@louis #GNV web search into #gopher #gemini best #recipe search
#lisp https://emacs.ch/@louis/112074295465231785
@danhalbert 's 1978 #MIT undergraduate thesis debugger for lisp https://mastodon.social/@danhalbert/112069515358564129
@jns #eternalGameEngine
@flyingsaceur #worldOfShouting
@prahou #unix_surrealism
@fstateaudio #music

#lispyGopher #climate #archived 000UTC Wednesday (Tuesday night for some) https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
Climate #haiku from @kentpitman https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112077643979975034 (do follow share retoot Kent plz)
@louis #GNV web search into #gopher #gemini best #recipe search
#lisp https://emacs.ch/@louis/112074295465231785
@danhalbert 's 1978 #MIT undergraduate thesis debugger for lisp https://mastodon.social/@danhalbert/112069515358564129
@jns #eternalGameEngine
@flyingsaceur #worldOfShouting
@prahou #unix_surrealism
@fstateaudio #music

#lispyGopher #climate at 0UTC wed #LIVE (Tuesday night for some) https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
- I'm describing this as found poetry https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112009750601054863 @kentpitman

- Lispaversary @larsbrinkhoff
- @louis deluxe web #gopher search https://emacs.ch/@louis/112011612215536709
@fosskers @zyd

#lisp : Other than the historical bits above, I want to talk about #erisa's presentation of technocognitive intelligences and lisp, and relate this to #MOO virtual reality.
Show #art @prahou
#music @cinap_lenrek <3 owls

#lispyGopher #climate at 0UTC wed #LIVE (Tuesday night for some) https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
- I'm describing this as found poetry https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112009750601054863 @kentpitman

- Lispaversary @larsbrinkhoff
- @louis deluxe web #gopher search https://emacs.ch/@louis/112011612215536709
@fosskers @zyd

#lisp : Other than the historical bits above, I want to talk about #erisa's presentation of technocognitive intelligences and lisp, and relate this to #MOO virtual reality.
Show #art @prahou
#music @cinap_lenrek <3 owls

#lispyGopher #climate at 0UTC wed #LIVE (Tuesday night for some) https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
- I'm describing this as found poetry https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112009750601054863 @kentpitman

- Lispaversary @larsbrinkhoff
- @louis deluxe web #gopher search https://emacs.ch/@louis/112011612215536709
@fosskers @zyd

#lisp : Other than the historical bits above, I want to talk about #erisa's presentation of technocognitive intelligences and lisp, and relate this to #MOO virtual reality.
Show #art @prahou
#music @cinap_lenrek <3 owls

#lispyGopher #climate at 0UTC wed #LIVE (Tuesday night for some) https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF
- I'm describing this as found poetry https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/112009750601054863 @kentpitman

- Lispaversary @larsbrinkhoff
- @louis deluxe web #gopher search https://emacs.ch/@louis/112011612215536709
@fosskers @zyd

#lisp : Other than the historical bits above, I want to talk about #erisa's presentation of technocognitive intelligences and lisp, and relate this to #MOO virtual reality.
Show #art @prahou
#music @cinap_lenrek <3 owls

https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio

#lispyGopher #climate #live on the hour (but you would listen to @northernlights the hour before (#liveNow) as well rihgt @SDF

I don't have internet.

#music #happyBirthday @etherdiver Tales of Ether Space ambiently
#unix_surrealism https://merveilles.town/@prahou/112004528913520839 @prahou
@kentpitman https://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2018/11/plutocratic-denial.html climate crisis poetry from 2018 @Reiddragon #cognitiveSystems #EricSandewall #artificialIntelligence #book #lisp https://www.ida.liu.se/ext/aica/
#gopher #phloggersGarage #irc

https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio

#lispyGopher #climate #live on the hour (but you would listen to @northernlights the hour before (#liveNow) as well rihgt @SDF

I don't have internet.

#music #happyBirthday @etherdiver Tales of Ether Space ambiently
#unix_surrealism https://merveilles.town/@prahou/112004528913520839 @prahou
@kentpitman https://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2018/11/plutocratic-denial.html climate crisis poetry from 2018 @Reiddragon #cognitiveSystems #EricSandewall #artificialIntelligence #book #lisp https://www.ida.liu.se/ext/aica/
#gopher #phloggersGarage #irc

https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio

#lispyGopher #climate #live on the hour (but you would listen to @northernlights the hour before (#liveNow) as well rihgt @SDF

I don't have internet.

#music #happyBirthday @etherdiver Tales of Ether Space ambiently
#unix_surrealism https://merveilles.town/@prahou/112004528913520839 @prahou
@kentpitman https://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2018/11/plutocratic-denial.html climate crisis poetry from 2018 @Reiddragon #cognitiveSystems #EricSandewall #artificialIntelligence #book #lisp https://www.ida.liu.se/ext/aica/
#gopher #phloggersGarage #irc

https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio

#lispyGopher #climate #live on the hour (but you would listen to @northernlights the hour before (#liveNow) as well rihgt @SDF

I don't have internet.

#music #happyBirthday @etherdiver Tales of Ether Space ambiently
#unix_surrealism https://merveilles.town/@prahou/112004528913520839 @prahou
@kentpitman https://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2018/11/plutocratic-denial.html climate crisis poetry from 2018 @Reiddragon #cognitiveSystems #EricSandewall #artificialIntelligence #book #lisp https://www.ida.liu.se/ext/aica/
#gopher #phloggersGarage #irc

https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio

#lispyGopher #climate #live on the hour (but you would listen to @northernlights the hour before (#liveNow) as well rihgt @SDF

I don't have internet.

#music #happyBirthday @etherdiver Tales of Ether Space ambiently
#unix_surrealism https://merveilles.town/@prahou/112004528913520839 @prahou
@kentpitman https://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2018/11/plutocratic-denial.html climate crisis poetry from 2018 @Reiddragon #cognitiveSystems #EricSandewall #artificialIntelligence #book #lisp https://www.ida.liu.se/ext/aica/
#gopher #phloggersGarage #irc

#lispygopher #climate #live
https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio
#haiku by @kentpitman
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111964783316214799
- What potential lives really hang in the balance?
- Climate inaction in a beachfront town (I am out of place)
- The #gopher holy war 2
- Verisimilitudes and Why We Need Dynamic Data Types
- Communicating residential systems
#unix_surrealism @prahou
#music ! 1 @fstateaudio #NoiseTherapy
2 První Hoře on technotramp's #ipfs #rplayer (against spotify)
https://bafybeigmjwx26qgubv6ddciwuwbatpgcdrw6mnhgz4qy5bd55nb3trosfu.ipfs.dweb.link/
Find the band by name

#phloggersgarage #100daystooffload #gopher Short notes just from the last #lispygopher
https://archives.anonradio.net/202402140000_screwtape.mp3
https://archives.anonradio.net/#screwtape

about the state of the gopher series of phosts (line columns to use and so forth)

gopher://tilde.institute/0/~screwtape/185236250-restate-of-the-gopher.txt
gopher://gopher.club/1/users/screwtape

https://gopher.tildeverse.org/tilde.institute/0/~screwtape/185236250-restate-of-the-gopher.txt
https://gopher.tildeverse.org/gopher.club/1/users/screwtape

#lispyGopher #climate 000UTC Wednesday ("Tuesday night") #archived
https://archives.anonradio.net/202412110000_screwtape.mp3
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111880896393894911
@kentpitman
Ask what your priorities are, not what's new
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111915846221330649

The reState Of The #Gopher phosts
gopher://aussies.space/0/~freet/phlog/2024-02-11.3In_Defence_of_UMN_Gopher.txt

Also #softwareFailure (and #veilid )

- a #GrayMan in #aotearoa #NZ

#AI #LambdaCore #visualNovelArtists

#Music https://diode.zone/c/fstateaudio/videos
#unix_surrealism https://lemmy.sdf.org/c/unix_surrealism

#lispyGopher #climate 000UTC Wednesday ("Tuesday night") #archived
https://archives.anonradio.net/202412110000_screwtape.mp3
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111880896393894911
@kentpitman
Ask what your priorities are, not what's new
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111915846221330649

The reState Of The #Gopher phosts
gopher://aussies.space/0/~freet/phlog/2024-02-11.3In_Defence_of_UMN_Gopher.txt

Also #softwareFailure (and #veilid )

- a #GrayMan in #aotearoa #NZ

#AI #LambdaCore #visualNovelArtists

#Music https://diode.zone/c/fstateaudio/videos
#unix_surrealism https://lemmy.sdf.org/c/unix_surrealism

#lispyGopher #climate 000UTC Wednesday ("Tuesday night") #archived
https://archives.anonradio.net/202412110000_screwtape.mp3
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111880896393894911
@kentpitman
Ask what your priorities are, not what's new
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111915846221330649

The reState Of The #Gopher phosts
gopher://aussies.space/0/~freet/phlog/2024-02-11.3In_Defence_of_UMN_Gopher.txt

Also #softwareFailure (and #veilid )

- a #GrayMan in #aotearoa #NZ

#AI #LambdaCore #visualNovelArtists

#Music https://diode.zone/c/fstateaudio/videos
#unix_surrealism https://lemmy.sdf.org/c/unix_surrealism

#lispyGopher #climate 000UTC Wednesday ("Tuesday night") #archived
https://archives.anonradio.net/202412110000_screwtape.mp3
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111880896393894911
@kentpitman
Ask what your priorities are, not what's new
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111915846221330649

The reState Of The #Gopher phosts
gopher://aussies.space/0/~freet/phlog/2024-02-11.3In_Defence_of_UMN_Gopher.txt

Also #softwareFailure (and #veilid )

- a #GrayMan in #aotearoa #NZ

#AI #LambdaCore #visualNovelArtists

#Music https://diode.zone/c/fstateaudio/videos
#unix_surrealism https://lemmy.sdf.org/c/unix_surrealism

#lispyGopher #climate 000UTC Wednesday ("Tuesday night") #archived
https://archives.anonradio.net/202412110000_screwtape.mp3
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111880896393894911
@kentpitman
Ask what your priorities are, not what's new
https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111915846221330649

The reState Of The #Gopher phosts
gopher://aussies.space/0/~freet/phlog/2024-02-11.3In_Defence_of_UMN_Gopher.txt

Also #softwareFailure (and #veilid )

- a #GrayMan in #aotearoa #NZ

#AI #LambdaCore #visualNovelArtists

#Music https://diode.zone/c/fstateaudio/videos
#unix_surrealism https://lemmy.sdf.org/c/unix_surrealism

#lispyGopher #climate #live #liveNow #liveChat https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio https://sdf.org @SDF
@kentpitman haiku https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111777506958255286 @breadandcircuses thread https://mastodon.sdf.org/@kentpitman@climatejustice.social/111807545387043685
Corn and harmonicas: https://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2012/05/corny-economics.html

#unix_surrealism lemmy at 500
https://lemmy.sdf.org/c/unix_surrealism

@jessica #charity #release inc see https://mastodon.heavymusic.rocks/@jessica/111760107839134548
#music and message <3

#lisp topics:
@rms #emacs article ( @trevdev turns out to be perfect)
@amszmidt MIT #CADR personal computer article

#lispyGopher #climate 0UTC Wed (about 3 hours from tooting) @SDF https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio
Join us on sdf.org commode chat
do retoot: @kentpitman climate #haiku https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111702918614915569 + southern hemisphere commentary
#unix_surrealism #art by @prahou
#music from @ErrorCrater (~ https://yewtu.be/channel/UCXidSuPhwvWWq_c_ab4lGTA )

#Lisp : Positive sides of some of the big proprietary compilers like Franz inc (#allegroCommonLisp) special thanks to @mapcar @jackdaniel & all,
https://genworks.com/
-Towards a #sm0lnet #VR

@SDF @kentpitman @pkw @SrRochardBunson @prahou
#archive https://archives.anonradio.net/202312130000_screwtape.mp3 #lispyGopher #climate #chomsky #clim2 #mcclim #lisp #gopher

#lispyGopher #climate 0UTC Wednesday (Tuesday in the Americas) on https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio #LIVE #LIVENOW SOON
@kentpitman shares another Nnimmo Bassey https://nnimmobassey.net/2023/12/03/extractivisms-ecological-time-bombs/
on the human rights abuses of extractivism, including mother earth's rights
#COP28 is a swarm of climate change denialists such as NZ

@lightweight 's #libre/FOSS services for NZ

Show #artist @prahou finds #sm0lnet user age similar to Earth's https://merveilles.town/@prahou/111496086925501780

@fstateaudio's #music https://www.fstateaudio.com/?p=1455

Weekly #lispygopher #climate #LIVE SOON 0UTC Wed on https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio powered by @SDF
Everyone please share and broadcast @kentpitman 's seasonal climate poem https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111467765589880033
#gopher
In the #lambdaMOO #moo tutorial, someone has spraypainted THIS IS NOT A GOPHERHOLE on one of the walls in red.
Help form my yet unphlogged My Tiny Life review thoughts <3
#lisp
Let's just use #CommonLisp #ironclad #crypto together

Music from @timnewsham

Art by @prahou in #uxn #unix_surrealism

Since I was slack today, please join me in discussing *next* week's #lispygopher #climate in this thread:
Candidate topics:
#VHDLISP fortnight: The thrilling conclusion
#gopherMOO and the internet of the future
#Cyberspace, #programming, the climate and #China From people I know
#crypto with #CommonLisp #ironclad
A #music'al investigation of @timnewsham

@mdhughes @rat @pkw @gnemmi @northernlights at everyone

#lispygopher #archived (scroll down) @SDF https://aNONradio.net
#climate
(let ((*print-circle* t))
"I'm going to read some of @kentpitman 's toot on repitition")
in climate messaging and the everything's-fine double-talk that happens
#lisp I've been consumed with #exploratoryProgramming of #vhdl generation for the past week, check my
#gopher gopher://tilde.club/0/~screwtape/synthember-100days-tooffload/036-vhdl-fortnight-1.org
https://gopher.tildeverse.org/tilde.club/0/~screwtape/synthember-100days-tooffload/036-vhdl-fortnight-1.org
#music @jessica https://mastodon.heavymusic.rocks/@jessica/111378490412073350

#lispygopher #climate https://anonradio.net:8443/anonradio @SDF #LIVE #LIVENOW in a min
@kentpitman on the bad chatbot strategy https://climatejustice.social/@kentpitman/111319338317851962
; I accidentally drink wine with my local university chancellors and get *their* side of the #chatbot #catastrophe
My #veilid month retrospective (white smoke escape, still incoming) + #DHT s in #China .
@fstateaudio #NoiseTherapy #music
@prahou #unix_surrealism #art
@amszmidt my #lispm quest begins
@solene #Octopenbsd #zine #special https://webzine.puffy.cafe/issue-16-special-octopenbsd-2023.html#ad

#lispyGopher show at Wed 000UTC #archived https://archives.anonradio.net/202310250000_screwtape.mp3
#climate haiku by @kentpitman
Climate resilient societies
@hayley pigeon proposal
#gopher
#gopherMOO #VR from @masinter & kmp^
#lisp
#ExploratoryProgramming #veilid
#SSB after
#mastodon
@mousebot calms me down after I got in one argument once
#futurePlans
I'll work on #usim with @amszmidt for [Nov Jan]
#redacted
Student Correction for using a chatbot leak

Show #unix_surrealism by @prahou
#music from @mxv

@screwtape

The PDP10 was a 36-bit architecture. Note well: NOT a power of 2. As I heard it, DEC was trying to make it be a lisp-friendly instruction set, so kind of an early lisp machine even though we referred to commercial vendors as "stock hardware". It had a fun instruction set. While the PDP-11w̶a̶s̶ ̶3̶2̶-̶b̶i̶t̶ ̶ was 16-bit [1], the PDP-10 was 36-bit. These OS's did not go in order. The PDP-10 (a.k.a, "the 10") was not superseded by the PDP-11 (a.k.a. "the 11"). They were different projects. While the 11 was stack-oriented, the 10 was VERY different. And the 11 was byte-oriented but the 10 wasn't; it was word-addressed with 18-bit pointers, so 256Kwords or about 1.25 MB if you're thinking 7-bit bytes of text (though mostly we didn't; we just said 256K, words was implied).

The 10 I used had a megaword of memory (4x what could be addressed), which was good because disks were slow and when a job (process) blocked, another was in memory and ready to run. And I heard Moon once say that megaword, called a "moby" cost $1M. Yikes.

But back to the word size, the 18 bits per half-word, was perfect for a cons. There were instructions to get one or the other half-word. And ASCII was 7-bit back then, so you could get 5 7-bit characters in a word, with one bit left over (sometimes wasted, sometimes used interestingly). There were ways to extract those efficiently. The first emacs originated in that environment, but not in lisp, in a language called TECO. But yeah, weird and fun 36-bit architecture. People can see here if that piques their interest: http://pdp10.nocrew.org/docs/instruction-set/pdp-10.html
The HLRZ instruction ("Half-left to right padding with zeros", I think it stood for, was the CAR function).

Howard Cannon, inventor of Flavors, the Lisp Machine / Zetalisp precursor to CLOS, had a license plate of HLRZ on his car. Probably few people in the real world understood, but it seemed cool. There were a few other instructions on the PDP10 that were directly Lisp instructions. Obviously HRRZ. I'll leave you to work that out.

Speaking of strange word sizes, Multics was a 72-bit architecture. I was told some address bits would never be non-zero because no one could ever afford that much physical memory. It was a Honeywell machine, not DEC. So I guess it's just coincidence it was twice the number of bits of the PDP-10. Multics was respected for being HIGHLY secure, long before its time, so not appreciated. Just as its primary language, PL/1, was not appreciated for its complex type casts. History is harsh to ideas that arrive too early. You can learn more about it here: https://www.multicians.org/
Dave Moon's earlier Maclisp manual (the Moonual), which predated my Revised Maclisp Manual (a.k.a. Pitmanual), was very Multics-leaning is preserved here: https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/MIT/Moon-MACLISP_Reference_Manual-Apr_08_1974.pdf

#Lisp #maclisp #LispyGopher

[1] Thanks to @larsbrinkhoff for correcting my memory downthread: The PDP-11 was a 16-bit, not a 32-bit machine.

@screwtape

I was doing some listening to back episodes of your Lispy Gopher show on AnonRadio, and I had a couple of supplementary remarks to add to the remarks you made about Lisp history, while recounting what you got out of my Untold Story paper. Far too detailed for on-air but this seemed a useful forum to flesh some of that out.

You asked about the back story of the lisp manual I wrote where I lost money (and got a hard life lesson in intellectual property). Yes, that was my Maclisp Manual, the Pitmanual (originally published in hardcopy at MIT, and later webbed at https://maclisp.info/pitmanual/index.html). Detailed history here: https://maclisp.info/pitmanual/history.html

Dave Moon (usually just called Moon) was a Multics Maclisp implementor and author of the first manual. Maclisp had evolved and changed a lot by time I wrote mine. I was mostly a Maclisp user, not implementor. I wrote a macro library or two. But I shared an office with Guy Steele and JonL White, Maclisp implementors, so I accumulated a lot of trivia that needed not to get lost. And I was having fun playing with Knuth's TeX. In Maclisp, I wrote a special-purpose Maclisp-manual-making language that compiled into TeX. The Pitmanual was written in that, a kind of tabular plain text, and my tool produced the TeX for the typeset book as output.

I should also note, to avoid confusion, that Maclisp was a pre-Common Lisp dialect that ran on the Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) PDP-10, which was pretty much comparable to the DEC20 (which was really mostly a later and more commercial PDP10, though it ran a very different operating system).

Maclisp was so-named NOT because of the Apple Macintosh, which it long pre-dated, but because it was named after Project MAC (a multi-targeted acronym that meant things like Machine-Aided Cognition, Man and Computers, and other things like that if I recall). But it was an MIT project in using computation generally and had zero overlap with what Apple made. Eventually there as a lisp for the Apple MacOS system, but it was not Maclisp.

More remarks will follow as a separate attachment.

#lisp #maclisp #gopher #LispyGopher