home.social

#movinginstances — Public Fediverse posts

Live and recent posts from across the Fediverse tagged #movinginstances, aggregated by home.social.

  1. Lorraine 💜🦜🎶🍀🤘 @[email protected] ·

    #3GoodThings

    I GOT THE EMAIL OF ACCEPTANCE TO JOIN BEIGE.PARTY!!! I am beside myself with giddiness! 😁

    My dear friend, Mr. Johnson, turned 96 yesterday. We met at physical therapy and bonded over competing with each other's time on the machines. The first time I hit 60 min. he was right behind me! 🎂 🥰

    My hands are maintaining a tolerable amount of pain since, ya know, I didn't get my freakin steroid shots. 🙄

    Happy early Mother's Day! 💐 💜 🤗

    #MovingInstances #friends #pain

    #3goodthings #movinginstances #friends #pain
  2. Jupiter Rowland @[email protected] ·
    @Ben Pate 🤘🏻
    What if moving a server looked like this:

    1. sign up for new account
    2. authenticate old account (OAuth, whatever)
    3. click "migrate"
    4. click "yes really"
    5. celebrate

    If this were possible, then a whole lot of people could become "server admins" without being IT nerds.

    Reality on Hubzilla for longer than Mastodon, as well as on (streams) and Forte:

    1. Register a new account.
    2. Optionally: Wait for it to be manually activated by the admin.
    3. Be asked to create a channel (= the actual identity with posts and contacts and files and stuff; your account is not your identity).
    4. Choose the option to move an existing channel.
    5. Enter the URL of the existing channel.
    6. Enter the password of the account on which the existing channel is located.
    7. Confirm
    8. A clone of the channel is created on the new server.
    9. The data of the existing channel is mirrored to the clone.
    10. The clone is promoted to main instance of the channel; the already existing instance of the channel is demoted to clone.
    11. The ID of your channel is changed accordingly.
    12. All nomadic contacts (= on Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte) are automatically changed to the new ID.
    13. (streams) and Forte only: All non-nomadic contacts receive a new connection request.
    14. The former-main-instance-and-now-clone is deleted because you chose to move rather than clone.
    15. If there are no other channels on the account on the old server, the whole account is deleted because accounts cannot exist with no channels on them.

    The only two differences between cloning and moving are that cloning leaves your main instance intact instead of deleting it, and it leaves it as your main instance by default rather than making the new clone your main instance.

    It works for Discord, why not the Fediverse?

    It's a common misconception, probably even by FLOSS devs, that "server" on Discord that a handful of clicks on the Web interface inserts a new 19" rack iron into a rack inside some data centre with a LAMP stack and an installation of the Discord server backend on it and makes you the tech admin. Or something like that.

    This is far from the truth. Discord has integrated the word "server" into its newspeak. On Discord, "server" means "chat room". A chat room on the same centralised, corporate-owned, commercially-operated server farm as all the other "servers".

    At the same time, Generation Z and newer think that this is what "server" always means because they've never come into contact with TeamSpeak and never experienced LAN parties.

    Administrating a Fediverse server, on the other hand, does equal administrating a LAMP stack on the command line, full stop.

    I sincerely hope that the day won't come when someone does with e.g. Mastodon what the Outworldz DreamGrid did with OpenSimulator: turn a full server stack into an "easy-peasy", fully-preconfigured, Windows-only point-and-click application that anyone can install on their Windows machines with absolutely zero prior knowledge about servers or networks, that even automatically connects to a dynamic DNS service that was created specifically for this application so you don't even need to know anything about domains, and that can only be handled through the built-in Windows GUI. (Mind you, there are people who are actually asking for exactly this, only not for Windows, but for their iPhones. Food for thought.)

    CC: @silverpill  @Contraquestão

    #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #MovingInstances #NomadicIdentity #Discord #OpenSim #OpenSimulator #DreamGrid
    #cwfediversemeta #movinginstances #nomadicidentity #fediversemeta #opensimulator #cwlongpost
  3. Jupiter Rowland @[email protected] ·
    @Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 Not to my knowledge.

    First of all, nomadic identity won't be described in one single FEP that'll cover everything. It was not created on and for ActivityPub. In fact, the concept predates ActivityPub by some six years, and the first implementation predates ActivityPub by some five years.

    See, nomadic identity started as an idea. Then Mike built a brand-new protocol around that idea, Zot. Then, in 2012, Mike forked one of his own forks of his own software that is now known as Friendica, originally based on yet protocol designed by himself, and re-wrote the whole thing against Zot. That's how the software was born that's known as Hubzilla now.

    As for nomadic identity via ActivityPub, there is only one publicly available software implementation for that. And that's Mike's own Forte. Forte still does everything the Hubzilla/(streams) way which is very very different from how anything else in the Fediverse works, even including Friendica itself, and especially including Mastodon.

    Whereas Zot was designed around nomadic identity, ActivityPub isn't. It's having nomadic identity bolted on with a whole slew of FEPs authored by @silverpill who is working on converting Mitra (typical Fediverse software: built only against ActivityPub, non-nomadic, login/account equals identity) into something that's every bit as nomadic as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

    Nomadic identity via ActivityPub was originally silverpill's idea, by the way. And that was in 2023. It turned out that this was actually doable, and so he and Mike started working on it, using experimental "nomadic" branches of Mitra and the streams repository respectively. Their approaches were naturally different: silverpill had to make something non-nomadic nomadic. Mike had to make something nomadic be nomadic using a protocol that wasn't made for nomadic identity.

    Not only is silverpill's approach much more difficult because Mitra wasn't made for nomadic identity either, but he also took it upon himself to put everything into FEPs by and by. He is still publishing FEP after FEP. Nomadic identity is quite a complex thing from a "Fediverse equals ActivityPub" point of view; it's just that the Hubzilla/(streams) bubble is so used to it whereas silverpill actually has to explore and research something that's natural to Mike.

    There's no common set of commands either. There can't be any. Forte, like everything else in the family all the way back to Friendica, is written in PHP. Mitra is written in Rust. Nobody has ever attempted to make something not written in PHP nomadic.

    In fact, code sharing would be next to impossible anyway: Forte, like Hubzilla and early Mistpark/Friendika, is published under the MIT license, (streams) is in the public domain, but Mitra is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL v3. Any code coming out of Mitra's conversion to nomadicity would be AGPL-licensed Rust code. And MIT-licensed PHP code that was created when turning Nomad-based (streams) into ActivityPub-based, Nomad-less Forte would be useless for non-nomadic-to-nomadic conversions anyway.

    So don't expect any how-to's or the like for converting non-nomadic, ActivityPub-only-by-original-design, login/account-equals-identity Fediverse server software to the same level of nomadicity as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte until
    • the first stable release of Mitra with full support for that level of nomadicity is officially rolled out
    • silverpill declares that everything necessary for Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte-level nomadic identity via nothing but ActivityPub is cast into FEPs and finalised

    Seeing as this has been in the making for some two years now, and I don't even know if the experimental nomadic branch of Mitra even allows cloning right now, I guess this will be a long way to go. He may actually first have to change Mitra from the standard Fediverse model of the account and the login being the identity to Hubzilla's, (streams)' and Forte's model of the identity being a container inside your account and one account being able to host multiple such identities. That's because you can't clone logins.

    Oh, by the way, nomadic identity is not just about moving. It's not "moving-your-Mastodon-account-to-another-instance on coke". It's way more.

    The core feature is cloning. Imagine you have full, live, hot backups of your Mastodon account on one, two, three, four or more other Mastodon instances. Imagine they all have the same identity, based on which one of them is your main instance. Imagine whatever happens on one of them is sync'd to the others in near-real-time. Imagine you can log into either of them and use either of them all the same, regardless of how many and which of the servers are actually online, as long as at least one is.

    Moving is actually even more complex than cloning because it involves both cloning and changing the main instance of your identity.

    Allow me to illustrate by supposing Mastodon works like Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

    • Situation:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with one channel, [email protected].
      • You want to move to troet.cafe.
    • Step 1: You create an account on troet.cafe.
    • Step 2: There can't be accounts with no channels. You have to add a channel.
      So you choose to move your channel [email protected] from digitalcourage.social to troet.cafe.
    • Step 3: Your channel [email protected] is cloned over to troet.cafe.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with the main instance of your channel; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with a clone of your channel; its identity is still [email protected].
    • Step 4: All data on your channel is synchronised over from your main instance on digitalcourage.social to your clone on troet.cafe. Posts, images, other files, followers, followed, settings, lists, filters etc. etc. pp. Everything.
    • Now the main instance and the clone are identical.
      Up until here, the process of moving is the same as the process of cloning. What follow is exclusive to moving.
    • Step 5:
      • The clone on troet.cafe is promoted to main instance.
      • As there can be only one main instance for each channel, the former main instance on digitalcourage.social is demoted to clone.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with a clone of your channel, formerly the main instance; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with the main instance of your channel, formerly a clone; its identity is [email protected].
    • Step 6: All your connections on servers of nomadic software are changed from [email protected] to [email protected], both locally on the servers that you are on and locally on the servers that they are on.
    • Step 7 (AFAIK, this only happens on (streams) and Forte in reality): All your outbound connections ("followed") on servers running non-nomadic software receive a follow request from [email protected] which, to them, is an all-new, independent identity.
    • The actually move is done. What follows is the clean-up that really makes the move a move, namely taking care that nothing is left behind in the old location.
    • Step 8: When these last steps are finalised, your clone on digitalcourage.social is deleted. After all, you wanted to move, not to clone.
    • Step 9: As your account on digitalcourage.social has no channel on it anymore, the whole account is deleted.
    #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mitra #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #FEP #MovingInstances #Clone #Clones
    #cwfediversemeta #nomadicidentity #movinginstances #fediversemeta #activitypub #cwlongpost
  4. Jupiter Rowland @[email protected] ·
    @Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 Not to my knowledge.

    First of all, nomadic identity won't be described in one single FEP that'll cover everything. It was not created on and for ActivityPub. In fact, the concept predates ActivityPub by some six years, and the first implementation predates ActivityPub by some five years.

    See, nomadic identity started as an idea. Then Mike built a brand-new protocol around that idea, Zot. Then, in 2012, Mike forked one of his own forks of his own software that is now known as Friendica, originally based on yet protocol designed by himself, and re-wrote the whole thing against Zot. That's how the software was born that's known as Hubzilla now.

    As for nomadic identity via ActivityPub, there is only one publicly available software implementation for that. And that's Mike's own Forte. Forte still does everything the Hubzilla/(streams) way which is very very different from how anything else in the Fediverse works, even including Friendica itself, and especially including Mastodon.

    Whereas Zot was designed around nomadic identity, ActivityPub isn't. It's having nomadic identity bolted on with a whole slew of FEPs authored by @silverpill who is working on converting Mitra (typical Fediverse software: built only against ActivityPub, non-nomadic, login/account equals identity) into something that's every bit as nomadic as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

    Nomadic identity via ActivityPub was originally silverpill's idea, by the way. And that was in 2023. It turned out that this was actually doable, and so he and Mike started working on it, using experimental "nomadic" branches of Mitra and the streams repository respectively. Their approaches were naturally different: silverpill had to make something non-nomadic nomadic. Mike had to make something nomadic be nomadic using a protocol that wasn't made for nomadic identity.

    Not only is silverpill's approach much more difficult because Mitra wasn't made for nomadic identity either, but he also took it upon himself to put everything into FEPs by and by. He is still publishing FEP after FEP. Nomadic identity is quite a complex thing from a "Fediverse equals ActivityPub" point of view; it's just that the Hubzilla/(streams) bubble is so used to it whereas silverpill actually has to explore and research something that's natural to Mike.

    There's no common set of commands either. There can't be any. Forte, like everything else in the family all the way back to Friendica, is written in PHP. Mitra is written in Rust. Nobody has ever attempted to make something not written in PHP nomadic.

    In fact, code sharing would be next to impossible anyway: Forte, like Hubzilla and early Mistpark/Friendika, is published under the MIT license, (streams) is in the public domain, but Mitra is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL v3. Any code coming out of Mitra's conversion to nomadicity would be AGPL-licensed Rust code. And MIT-licensed PHP code that was created when turning Nomad-based (streams) into ActivityPub-based, Nomad-less Forte would be useless for non-nomadic-to-nomadic conversions anyway.

    So don't expect any how-to's or the like for converting non-nomadic, ActivityPub-only-by-original-design, login/account-equals-identity Fediverse server software to the same level of nomadicity as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte until
    • the first stable release of Mitra with full support for that level of nomadicity is officially rolled out
    • silverpill declares that everything necessary for Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte-level nomadic identity via nothing but ActivityPub is cast into FEPs and finalised

    Seeing as this has been in the making for some two years now, and I don't even know if the experimental nomadic branch of Mitra even allows cloning right now, I guess this will be a long way to go. He may actually first have to change Mitra from the standard Fediverse model of the account and the login being the identity to Hubzilla's, (streams)' and Forte's model of the identity being a container inside your account and one account being able to host multiple such identities. That's because you can't clone logins.

    Oh, by the way, nomadic identity is not just about moving. It's not "moving-your-Mastodon-account-to-another-instance on coke". It's way more.

    The core feature is cloning. Imagine you have full, live, hot backups of your Mastodon account on one, two, three, four or more other Mastodon instances. Imagine they all have the same identity, based on which one of them is your main instance. Imagine whatever happens on one of them is sync'd to the others in near-real-time. Imagine you can log into either of them and use either of them all the same, regardless of how many and which of the servers are actually online, as long as at least one is.

    Moving is actually even more complex than cloning because it involves both cloning and changing the main instance of your identity.

    Allow me to illustrate by supposing Mastodon works like Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

    • Situation:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with one channel, [email protected].
      • You want to move to troet.cafe.
    • Step 1: You create an account on troet.cafe.
    • Step 2: There can't be accounts with no channels. You have to add a channel.
      So you choose to move your channel [email protected] from digitalcourage.social to troet.cafe.
    • Step 3: Your channel [email protected] is cloned over to troet.cafe.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with the main instance of your channel; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with a clone of your channel; its identity is still [email protected].
    • Step 4: All data on your channel is synchronised over from your main instance on digitalcourage.social to your clone on troet.cafe. Posts, images, other files, followers, followed, settings, lists, filters etc. etc. pp. Everything.
    • Now the main instance and the clone are identical.
      Up until here, the process of moving is the same as the process of cloning. What follow is exclusive to moving.
    • Step 5:
      • The clone on troet.cafe is promoted to main instance.
      • As there can be only one main instance for each channel, the former main instance on digitalcourage.social is demoted to clone.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with a clone of your channel, formerly the main instance; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with the main instance of your channel, formerly a clone; its identity is [email protected].
    • Step 6: All your connections on servers of nomadic software are changed from [email protected] to [email protected], both locally on the servers that you are on and locally on the servers that they are on.
    • Step 7 (AFAIK, this only happens on (streams) and Forte in reality): All your outbound connections ("followed") on servers running non-nomadic software receive a follow request from [email protected] which, to them, is an all-new, independent identity.
    • The actually move is done. What follows is the clean-up that really makes the move a move, namely taking care that nothing is left behind in the old location.
    • Step 8: When these last steps are finalised, your clone on digitalcourage.social is deleted. After all, you wanted to move, not to clone.
    • Step 9: As your account on digitalcourage.social has no channel on it anymore, the whole account is deleted.
    #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mitra #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #FEP #MovingInstances #Clone #Clones
    #cwfediversemeta #nomadicidentity #movinginstances #fediversemeta #activitypub #cwlongpost
  5. Jupiter Rowland @[email protected] ·
    @Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 Not to my knowledge.

    First of all, nomadic identity won't be described in one single FEP that'll cover everything. It was not created on and for ActivityPub. In fact, the concept predates ActivityPub by some six years, and the first implementation predates ActivityPub by some five years.

    See, nomadic identity started as an idea. Then Mike built a brand-new protocol around that idea, Zot. Then, in 2012, Mike forked one of his own forks of his own software that is now known as Friendica, originally based on yet protocol designed by himself, and re-wrote the whole thing against Zot. That's how the software was born that's known as Hubzilla now.

    As for nomadic identity via ActivityPub, there is only one publicly available software implementation for that. And that's Mike's own Forte. Forte still does everything the Hubzilla/(streams) way which is very very different from how anything else in the Fediverse works, even including Friendica itself, and especially including Mastodon.

    Whereas Zot was designed around nomadic identity, ActivityPub isn't. It's having nomadic identity bolted on with a whole slew of FEPs authored by @silverpill who is working on converting Mitra (typical Fediverse software: built only against ActivityPub, non-nomadic, login/account equals identity) into something that's every bit as nomadic as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

    Nomadic identity via ActivityPub was originally silverpill's idea, by the way. And that was in 2023. It turned out that this was actually doable, and so he and Mike started working on it, using experimental "nomadic" branches of Mitra and the streams repository respectively. Their approaches were naturally different: silverpill had to make something non-nomadic nomadic. Mike had to make something nomadic be nomadic using a protocol that wasn't made for nomadic identity.

    Not only is silverpill's approach much more difficult because Mitra wasn't made for nomadic identity either, but he also took it upon himself to put everything into FEPs by and by. He is still publishing FEP after FEP. Nomadic identity is quite a complex thing from a "Fediverse equals ActivityPub" point of view; it's just that the Hubzilla/(streams) bubble is so used to it whereas silverpill actually has to explore and research something that's natural to Mike.

    There's no common set of commands either. There can't be any. Forte, like everything else in the family all the way back to Friendica, is written in PHP. Mitra is written in Rust. Nobody has ever attempted to make something not written in PHP nomadic.

    In fact, code sharing would be next to impossible anyway: Forte, like Hubzilla and early Mistpark/Friendika, is published under the MIT license, (streams) is in the public domain, but Mitra is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL v3. Any code coming out of Mitra's conversion to nomadicity would be AGPL-licensed Rust code. And MIT-licensed PHP code that was created when turning Nomad-based (streams) into ActivityPub-based, Nomad-less Forte would be useless for non-nomadic-to-nomadic conversions anyway.

    So don't expect any how-to's or the like for converting non-nomadic, ActivityPub-only-by-original-design, login/account-equals-identity Fediverse server software to the same level of nomadicity as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte until
    • the first stable release of Mitra with full support for that level of nomadicity is officially rolled out
    • silverpill declares that everything necessary for Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte-level nomadic identity via nothing but ActivityPub is cast into FEPs and finalised

    Seeing as this has been in the making for some two years now, and I don't even know if the experimental nomadic branch of Mitra even allows cloning right now, I guess this will be a long way to go. He may actually first have to change Mitra from the standard Fediverse model of the account and the login being the identity to Hubzilla's, (streams)' and Forte's model of the identity being a container inside your account and one account being able to host multiple such identities. That's because you can't clone logins.

    Oh, by the way, nomadic identity is not just about moving. It's not "moving-your-Mastodon-account-to-another-instance on coke". It's way more.

    The core feature is cloning. Imagine you have full, live, hot backups of your Mastodon account on one, two, three, four or more other Mastodon instances. Imagine they all have the same identity, based on which one of them is your main instance. Imagine whatever happens on one of them is sync'd to the others in near-real-time. Imagine you can log into either of them and use either of them all the same, regardless of how many and which of the servers are actually online, as long as at least one is.

    Moving is actually even more complex than cloning because it involves both cloning and changing the main instance of your identity.

    Allow me to illustrate by supposing Mastodon works like Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

    • Situation:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with one channel, [email protected].
      • You want to move to troet.cafe.
    • Step 1: You create an account on troet.cafe.
    • Step 2: There can't be accounts with no channels. You have to add a channel.
      So you choose to move your channel [email protected] from digitalcourage.social to troet.cafe.
    • Step 3: Your channel [email protected] is cloned over to troet.cafe.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with the main instance of your channel; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with a clone of your channel; its identity is still [email protected].
    • Step 4: All data on your channel is synchronised over from your main instance on digitalcourage.social to your clone on troet.cafe. Posts, images, other files, followers, followed, settings, lists, filters etc. etc. pp. Everything.
    • Now the main instance and the clone are identical.
      Up until here, the process of moving is the same as the process of cloning. What follow is exclusive to moving.
    • Step 5:
      • The clone on troet.cafe is promoted to main instance.
      • As there can be only one main instance for each channel, the former main instance on digitalcourage.social is demoted to clone.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with a clone of your channel, formerly the main instance; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with the main instance of your channel, formerly a clone; its identity is [email protected].
    • Step 6: All your connections on servers of nomadic software are changed from [email protected] to [email protected], both locally on the servers that you are on and locally on the servers that they are on.
    • Step 7 (AFAIK, this only happens on (streams) and Forte in reality): All your outbound connections ("followed") on servers running non-nomadic software receive a follow request from [email protected] which, to them, is an all-new, independent identity.
    • The actually move is done. What follows is the clean-up that really makes the move a move, namely taking care that nothing is left behind in the old location.
    • Step 8: When these last steps are finalised, your clone on digitalcourage.social is deleted. After all, you wanted to move, not to clone.
    • Step 9: As your account on digitalcourage.social has no channel on it anymore, the whole account is deleted.
    #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mitra #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #FEP #MovingInstances #Clone #Clones
    #cwfediversemeta #nomadicidentity #movinginstances #fediversemeta #activitypub #cwlongpost
  6. Jupiter Rowland @[email protected] ·
    @Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 Not to my knowledge.

    First of all, nomadic identity won't be described in one single FEP that'll cover everything. It was not created on and for ActivityPub. In fact, the concept predates ActivityPub by some six years, and the first implementation predates ActivityPub by some five years.

    See, nomadic identity started as an idea. Then Mike built a brand-new protocol around that idea, Zot. Then, in 2012, Mike forked one of his own forks of his own software that is now known as Friendica, originally based on yet protocol designed by himself, and re-wrote the whole thing against Zot. That's how the software was born that's known as Hubzilla now.

    As for nomadic identity via ActivityPub, there is only one publicly available software implementation for that. And that's Mike's own Forte. Forte still does everything the Hubzilla/(streams) way which is very very different from how anything else in the Fediverse works, even including Friendica itself, and especially including Mastodon.

    Whereas Zot was designed around nomadic identity, ActivityPub isn't. It's having nomadic identity bolted on with a whole slew of FEPs authored by @silverpill who is working on converting Mitra (typical Fediverse software: built only against ActivityPub, non-nomadic, login/account equals identity) into something that's every bit as nomadic as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

    Nomadic identity via ActivityPub was originally silverpill's idea, by the way. And that was in 2023. It turned out that this was actually doable, and so he and Mike started working on it, using experimental "nomadic" branches of Mitra and the streams repository respectively. Their approaches were naturally different: silverpill had to make something non-nomadic nomadic. Mike had to make something nomadic be nomadic using a protocol that wasn't made for nomadic identity.

    Not only is silverpill's approach much more difficult because Mitra wasn't made for nomadic identity either, but he also took it upon himself to put everything into FEPs by and by. He is still publishing FEP after FEP. Nomadic identity is quite a complex thing from a "Fediverse equals ActivityPub" point of view; it's just that the Hubzilla/(streams) bubble is so used to it whereas silverpill actually has to explore and research something that's natural to Mike.

    There's no common set of commands either. There can't be any. Forte, like everything else in the family all the way back to Friendica, is written in PHP. Mitra is written in Rust. Nobody has ever attempted to make something not written in PHP nomadic.

    In fact, code sharing would be next to impossible anyway: Forte, like Hubzilla and early Mistpark/Friendika, is published under the MIT license, (streams) is in the public domain, but Mitra is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL v3. Any code coming out of Mitra's conversion to nomadicity would be AGPL-licensed Rust code. And MIT-licensed PHP code that was created when turning Nomad-based (streams) into ActivityPub-based, Nomad-less Forte would be useless for non-nomadic-to-nomadic conversions anyway.

    So don't expect any how-to's or the like for converting non-nomadic, ActivityPub-only-by-original-design, login/account-equals-identity Fediverse server software to the same level of nomadicity as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte until
    • the first stable release of Mitra with full support for that level of nomadicity is officially rolled out
    • silverpill declares that everything necessary for Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte-level nomadic identity via nothing but ActivityPub is cast into FEPs and finalised

    Seeing as this has been in the making for some two years now, and I don't even know if the experimental nomadic branch of Mitra even allows cloning right now, I guess this will be a long way to go. He may actually first have to change Mitra from the standard Fediverse model of the account and the login being the identity to Hubzilla's, (streams)' and Forte's model of the identity being a container inside your account and one account being able to host multiple such identities. That's because you can't clone logins.

    Oh, by the way, nomadic identity is not just about moving. It's not "moving-your-Mastodon-account-to-another-instance on coke". It's way more.

    The core feature is cloning. Imagine you have full, live, hot backups of your Mastodon account on one, two, three, four or more other Mastodon instances. Imagine they all have the same identity, based on which one of them is your main instance. Imagine whatever happens on one of them is sync'd to the others in near-real-time. Imagine you can log into either of them and use either of them all the same, regardless of how many and which of the servers are actually online, as long as at least one is.

    Moving is actually even more complex than cloning because it involves both cloning and changing the main instance of your identity.

    Allow me to illustrate by supposing Mastodon works like Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

    • Situation:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with one channel, [email protected].
      • You want to move to troet.cafe.
    • Step 1: You create an account on troet.cafe.
    • Step 2: There can't be accounts with no channels. You have to add a channel.
      So you choose to move your channel [email protected] from digitalcourage.social to troet.cafe.
    • Step 3: Your channel [email protected] is cloned over to troet.cafe.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with the main instance of your channel; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with a clone of your channel; its identity is still [email protected].
    • Step 4: All data on your channel is synchronised over from your main instance on digitalcourage.social to your clone on troet.cafe. Posts, images, other files, followers, followed, settings, lists, filters etc. etc. pp. Everything.
    • Now the main instance and the clone are identical.
      Up until here, the process of moving is the same as the process of cloning. What follow is exclusive to moving.
    • Step 5:
      • The clone on troet.cafe is promoted to main instance.
      • As there can be only one main instance for each channel, the former main instance on digitalcourage.social is demoted to clone.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with a clone of your channel, formerly the main instance; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with the main instance of your channel, formerly a clone; its identity is [email protected].
    • Step 6: All your connections on servers of nomadic software are changed from [email protected] to [email protected], both locally on the servers that you are on and locally on the servers that they are on.
    • Step 7 (AFAIK, this only happens on (streams) and Forte in reality): All your outbound connections ("followed") on servers running non-nomadic software receive a follow request from [email protected] which, to them, is an all-new, independent identity.
    • The actually move is done. What follows is the clean-up that really makes the move a move, namely taking care that nothing is left behind in the old location.
    • Step 8: When these last steps are finalised, your clone on digitalcourage.social is deleted. After all, you wanted to move, not to clone.
    • Step 9: As your account on digitalcourage.social has no channel on it anymore, the whole account is deleted.
    #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mitra #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #FEP #MovingInstances #Clone #Clones
    #fep #zot #zot6 #long #clone #nomad
  7. Jupiter Rowland @[email protected] ·
    @Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻 Not to my knowledge.

    First of all, nomadic identity won't be described in one single FEP that'll cover everything. It was not created on and for ActivityPub. In fact, the concept predates ActivityPub by some six years, and the first implementation predates ActivityPub by some five years.

    See, nomadic identity started as an idea. Then Mike built a brand-new protocol around that idea, Zot. Then, in 2012, Mike forked one of his own forks of his own software that is now known as Friendica, originally based on yet protocol designed by himself, and re-wrote the whole thing against Zot. That's how the software was born that's known as Hubzilla now.

    As for nomadic identity via ActivityPub, there is only one publicly available software implementation for that. And that's Mike's own Forte. Forte still does everything the Hubzilla/(streams) way which is very very different from how anything else in the Fediverse works, even including Friendica itself, and especially including Mastodon.

    Whereas Zot was designed around nomadic identity, ActivityPub isn't. It's having nomadic identity bolted on with a whole slew of FEPs authored by @silverpill who is working on converting Mitra (typical Fediverse software: built only against ActivityPub, non-nomadic, login/account equals identity) into something that's every bit as nomadic as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

    Nomadic identity via ActivityPub was originally silverpill's idea, by the way. And that was in 2023. It turned out that this was actually doable, and so he and Mike started working on it, using experimental "nomadic" branches of Mitra and the streams repository respectively. Their approaches were naturally different: silverpill had to make something non-nomadic nomadic. Mike had to make something nomadic be nomadic using a protocol that wasn't made for nomadic identity.

    Not only is silverpill's approach much more difficult because Mitra wasn't made for nomadic identity either, but he also took it upon himself to put everything into FEPs by and by. He is still publishing FEP after FEP. Nomadic identity is quite a complex thing from a "Fediverse equals ActivityPub" point of view; it's just that the Hubzilla/(streams) bubble is so used to it whereas silverpill actually has to explore and research something that's natural to Mike.

    There's no common set of commands either. There can't be any. Forte, like everything else in the family all the way back to Friendica, is written in PHP. Mitra is written in Rust. Nobody has ever attempted to make something not written in PHP nomadic.

    In fact, code sharing would be next to impossible anyway: Forte, like Hubzilla and early Mistpark/Friendika, is published under the MIT license, (streams) is in the public domain, but Mitra is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL v3. Any code coming out of Mitra's conversion to nomadicity would be AGPL-licensed Rust code. And MIT-licensed PHP code that was created when turning Nomad-based (streams) into ActivityPub-based, Nomad-less Forte would be useless for non-nomadic-to-nomadic conversions anyway.

    So don't expect any how-to's or the like for converting non-nomadic, ActivityPub-only-by-original-design, login/account-equals-identity Fediverse server software to the same level of nomadicity as Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte until
    • the first stable release of Mitra with full support for that level of nomadicity is officially rolled out
    • silverpill declares that everything necessary for Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte-level nomadic identity via nothing but ActivityPub is cast into FEPs and finalised

    Seeing as this has been in the making for some two years now, and I don't even know if the experimental nomadic branch of Mitra even allows cloning right now, I guess this will be a long way to go. He may actually first have to change Mitra from the standard Fediverse model of the account and the login being the identity to Hubzilla's, (streams)' and Forte's model of the identity being a container inside your account and one account being able to host multiple such identities. That's because you can't clone logins.

    Oh, by the way, nomadic identity is not just about moving. It's not "moving-your-Mastodon-account-to-another-instance on coke". It's way more.

    The core feature is cloning. Imagine you have full, live, hot backups of your Mastodon account on one, two, three, four or more other Mastodon instances. Imagine they all have the same identity, based on which one of them is your main instance. Imagine whatever happens on one of them is sync'd to the others in near-real-time. Imagine you can log into either of them and use either of them all the same, regardless of how many and which of the servers are actually online, as long as at least one is.

    Moving is actually even more complex than cloning because it involves both cloning and changing the main instance of your identity.

    Allow me to illustrate by supposing Mastodon works like Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

    • Situation:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with one channel, [email protected].
      • You want to move to troet.cafe.
    • Step 1: You create an account on troet.cafe.
    • Step 2: There can't be accounts with no channels. You have to add a channel.
      So you choose to move your channel [email protected] from digitalcourage.social to troet.cafe.
    • Step 3: Your channel [email protected] is cloned over to troet.cafe.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with the main instance of your channel; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with a clone of your channel; its identity is still [email protected].
    • Step 4: All data on your channel is synchronised over from your main instance on digitalcourage.social to your clone on troet.cafe. Posts, images, other files, followers, followed, settings, lists, filters etc. etc. pp. Everything.
    • Now the main instance and the clone are identical.
      Up until here, the process of moving is the same as the process of cloning. What follow is exclusive to moving.
    • Step 5:
      • The clone on troet.cafe is promoted to main instance.
      • As there can be only one main instance for each channel, the former main instance on digitalcourage.social is demoted to clone.
    • Situation now:
      • You have an account on digitalcourage.social with a clone of your channel, formerly the main instance; its identity is [email protected].
      • You have an account on troet.cafe with the main instance of your channel, formerly a clone; its identity is [email protected].
    • Step 6: All your connections on servers of nomadic software are changed from [email protected] to [email protected], both locally on the servers that you are on and locally on the servers that they are on.
    • Step 7 (AFAIK, this only happens on (streams) and Forte in reality): All your outbound connections ("followed") on servers running non-nomadic software receive a follow request from [email protected] which, to them, is an all-new, independent identity.
    • The actually move is done. What follows is the clean-up that really makes the move a move, namely taking care that nothing is left behind in the old location.
    • Step 8: When these last steps are finalised, your clone on digitalcourage.social is deleted. After all, you wanted to move, not to clone.
    • Step 9: As your account on digitalcourage.social has no channel on it anymore, the whole account is deleted.
    #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mitra #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #FEP #MovingInstances #Clone #Clones
    #cwfediversemeta #nomadicidentity #movinginstances #fediversemeta #activitypub #cwlongpost
  8. Smitha 🌸🌋🎻 @[email protected] ·

    Onward I go - you can find me at kind.social/@smitha.

    I should have already re-followed all my followers over there.

    Thanks for everything, Famichiki Fam. 🙏🏽🥰

    #fedipact #MovingInstances

    #fedipact #movinginstances
  9. robyneatseverything @[email protected] ·

    My appeal about the removal of my profile pic ("too sexy") has gone unanswered so it's time to move instances! Does anyone have an easy how to guide?

    #movinginstances

    #movinginstances
  10. KydiaMusic @[email protected] ·

    Ok here I go, moving instances.

    See you on the other side (I hope)!

    #moving #MovingInstances

    #moving #movinginstances
  11. Cat Lady Kydia Music 🇺🇦 @[email protected] ·

    Transferring some of my old posts from mastodon.lol over to this instance, so I don't lose them forever.

    I'm going to be switching over to this instance soon, so please bear with me.

    Thanks for your patience for those of you seeing a whole bunch of my posts on your Home feed.
    #movinginstances #InstanceMigration #ADHDmemes #Raccoon

    #movinginstances #instancemigration #adhdmemes #raccoon
  12. War on the Castle, Peace in the Valley🛡️🍉🇵🇸 🏳️‍🌈 🇺🇦 @[email protected] ·

    @[email protected] @[email protected] @shaman @ronwurzer @Circuitous @tom4okstate @pops @humanbean @[email protected] @delguapo @colinjessop @klhfarm @potterbug @Officialwhich @Mig @[email protected] @martwest

    I have tried #movinginstances twice and never had a problem with followers. You have to manually upload those you wish to follow but since you have the above accounts properly formatted all you need to do for those is to copy-paste and save as a .csv which you can upload in "Imports".

    You probably did lose your old posts as even the archives don't seem to save them, which I found out by losing a post or two which were lovingly crafted.

    #howto Next time I will copy and download my best posts. Live and learn...

    #movinginstances #howto
  13. (car '(potato lisper)) @potato_lisper ·

    Quick question. While moving instances from Akkoma based (Pleroma fork) to Mastodon based, should people I follow move to, or do I have to import them manually?

    #movinginstances
  14. Joy Denebeim @[email protected] ·

    @ericbrookfield and on another topic #MovingInstances in #mastodon is easy.

    1. create an account on a new instance
    2. go to 'edit profile' on each account
    3. on the instance you're moving from click on 'moving to' and enter your new location
    4. on the instance you're moving to click 'moving from' and enter your old location

    That's it. All your people will be moved over and your toots posted on your new address.

    #movinginstances #mastodon
  15. Tenar Arha🌻 @[email protected] ·

    I'm slowly & carefully trying, and then #movinginstances. I won't be frequenting here as much while I make sure I've properly shifted over everything I want.

    Anyway, I'll check back here for any notifications, but I'll be posting replying over at the new place.

    JSYK The new instance link is in my bio. This post will also get pinned.

    #movinginstances
  16. netrom has moved @[email protected] ·

    @ImADifferentBird @thomas Hopefully this can help you out: social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/1

    #movinginstances

    #movinginstances
  17. Cary Grace @[email protected] ·

    I’m planning to move instances to mastodon.art, as it seems like a better fit for me.

    Found a few guides here and there; I think I’ve got it sussed, but thought I’d ask for tips and advice anyway before I go ahead, just in case there might be some pitfalls I’m unaware of.

    Anything I need to know first?

    Looks like it’s not possible to transfer my posts over to the new instance though—unless that’s changed recently? No big deal, but if there’s a way to do it, would be nice.

    #MovingInstances

    #movinginstances
  18. Nicki Lygo @[email protected] ·

    I’m thinking of moving my account to med-mastodon as I’m just not seeing my medical colleagues posts, meaning I’m missing out on a huge amount of information and learning when compared with the bird site.

    I’ve read lots, but still can’t work out - do I have to create my new profile first before moving or is it created during the process of moving? I would like to move rather than just redirect and I don’t want two accounts.

    Thanks in advance! 🙌🏻 #MovingInstances

    #movinginstances
  19. Wyn -Excel & Power BI @[email protected] ·

    Moving instances seems to have gone smoothly.

    Needed to download and re-upload a list of folks I was following, but existing followers seem to have been transferred.

    Old posts live on in the old instance and if the reader clicks on my profile they jump to this new instance.

    No record of old posts in this new instance, but I guess that's to be expected.

    #MovingInstances

    #movinginstances
  20. Mark Hall @[email protected] ·
    CW: Discussion of moving instances

    Why c.im? I definitely still wanted a general instance. My interests are varied, and I'm not deep enough into ANY of them to justify getting onto a specialized server. I needed a large one, too. I don't post enough to feel like I'm keeping up my end of a tiny group that expects everyone to contribute heavily, because my life just isn't that busy to provide me with content. But c.im looks large enough to lurk in, small enough (so far) to manage, and in the last few days, several of the people in Federated that interested me enough to follow were coming from here. Go where the good people are, right? #MovingInstances

    #movinginstances
  21. ppk 🇪🇺 @[email protected] ·

    @jensimmons #movinginstances from mastodon.social to here:

    I exported-then-imported my follows. You can do that in Preferences -> Import and export. Note that follows is the only thing you can export/import; not followers, not profile. It took time to switch my follows; it wasm't an instant process.

    #movinginstances
  22. Fredrik Graver 🎥🥌 @[email protected] ·

    Ok, then. Time to make this move.

    Hopefully, I'll see you all from the other side, from my new account at @[email protected]

    #MovingInstances

    #movinginstances